What's the point of it all?

daRobot · 07-12-2017 1:58pm #1

Bit of a deeper question on this, as I'm in a bit of shock with BTC hitting $15k - it's truly crazy how it's going.

I had a couple of coins back in 2013, but they've been long sold and spent. Would have been nice to hold them, but hindsight 20/20 etc.

But perhaps some of you wiser folk in the game can enlighten me:

What is the actual point of cryptocurrency?

I don't mean in terms of privacy, and a decentralized network, or any of the tech factors. I get all of that. More in the sense of practicality, everyday use.

For example, when I first heard of Bitcoin in 2012, my initial thoughts were that it was best suited for illegal activities: tax evasion, dark net markets, money laundering etc.

And to this day, I still don't quite get it's practical usage beyond that.

As something to trade, sure I get it. It's lucrative if you can swing trade and time the dips. Or of course hold, as this seemingly unstoppable train trundles on.

But are Governments going to allow this to grow to a point where it threatens FIAT?

Bitcoin to replace USD, Sterling or the Euro?

It just couldn't, right? As the nature of the cyrpto makes it so much harder to
collect taxes, and given that this is what runs the countries, it simply can't be allowed to get too big. Yet it's going that way...

So does it just sit beside FIAT, sort of half sitting in the black economy?

What I find interesting, is that the whole thing could completely collapse with Government regulation, if they went heavy handed. Or they could simply ban it outright.

Is it a case of Governments letting this one play out, to see how the technology can be used to their advantage, and then comes the heavy regulation once they figure out how it will be their win?

I ask these questions, as really don't see the practical use of crypto. Way slower transaction times, still fees and massively volatile. It's too unstable to use for business, when you have fixed costs and overheads.

So other than trading it, and doing/buying some dodgy ****, of which many coins like Monero etc do better, what is the point of it all?

ZeroThreat · 07-12-2017 2:08pm

daRobot wrote: »

Bit of a deeper question on this, as I'm in a bit of shock with BTC hitting $15k - it's truly crazy how it's going.

I had a couple of coins back in 2013, but they've been long sold and spent. Would have been nice to hold them, but hindsight 20/20 etc.

But perhaps some of you wiser folk in the game can enlighten me:

What is the actual point of cryptocurrency?

I don't mean in terms of privacy, and a decentralized network, or any of the tech factors. I get all of that. More in the sense of practicality, everyday use.

For example, when I first heard of Bitcoin in 2012, my initial thoughts were that it was best suited for illegal activities: tax evasion, dark net markets, money laundering etc.

And to this day, I still don't quite get it's practical usage beyond that.

As something to trade, sure I get it. It's lucrative if you can swing trade and time the dips. Or of course hold, as this seemingly unstoppable train trundles on.

But are Governments going to allow this to grow to a point where it threatens FIAT?

Bitcoin to replace USD, Sterling or the Euro?

It just couldn't, right? As the nature of the cyrpto makes it so much harder to
collect taxes, and given that this is what runs the countries, it simply can't be allowed to get too big. Yet it's going that way...

So does it just sit beside FIAT, sort of half sitting in the black economy?

What I find interesting, is that the whole thing could completely collapse with Government regulation, if they went heavy handed. Or they could simply ban it outright.

Is it a case of Governments letting this one play out, to see how the technology can be used to their advantage, and then comes the heavy regulation once they figure out how it will be their win?

I ask these questions, as really don't see the practical use of crypto. Way slower transaction times, still fees and massively volatile. It's too unstable to use for business, when you have fixed costs and overheads.

So other than trading it, and doing/buying some dodgy ****, of which many coins like Monero etc do better, what is the point of it all?

I believe this gentleman will answer all your questions.

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/if-bitcoin-was-worth-1-each-in-2011-why-are-they-worth-12-000-each-now.206319/

daRobot · 07-12-2017 3:39pm

ZeroThreat wrote: »

I believe this gentleman will answer all your questions.

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/if-bitcoin-was-worth-1-each-in-2011-why-are-they-worth-12-000-each-now.206319/

Nope, that didn't answer anything. Or did you read my post at all?

I've played around with BTC for a couple of years, and trade some ALT's currently, so I have a decent overview of what they are.

But the point is, even though I have some level of involvement with them (just to trade them and make money), I still don't really get their purpose on a big picture scale.

I would imagine I'm not the only one who feels like this.

McCrack · 07-12-2017 9:13pm

The future money, digital payments, store of wealth

The Hill Men · 07-12-2017 9:39pm

Just because Bitcoin is over-valued currently does not mean it is inherently worthless. As someone has pointed out it is more or less just digital gold. That's it's most accurate description in my eyes.
The real shame is that cryptocurrency/ blockchain technology has huge potential and instead of gradually progressing through it's growing pains the speculation bubble now looks to set it back in the long term.

The Hill Men · 07-12-2017 9:47pm

If I had to answer your question (Why Crypto?) in the most simple terms possible I would say quantitative easing and mismanagement of the banking sector to screw over the people. Despite the large scale adoption of bitcoin by criminals it has at it's centre honest intentions to take currency controls from cosy cartels and devolve it to the general people.

The Hill Men · 07-12-2017 9:47pm

If I had to answer your question (Why Crypto?) in the most simple terms possible I would say quantitative easing and mismanagement of the banking sector to screw over the people. Despite the large scale adoption of bitcoin by criminals it has at it's centre honest intentions to take currency controls from cosy cartels and devolve it to the general people.

mel123 · 08-12-2017 12:43pm

Its a great question, and i dont know anyone who has a definite answer. Like its going strength to strength, if you even bought 6 months ago and cashed out now, youd have a tidy profit. But its also risky as hell. Its seems no one really knows what it is, or where it is, but yet some people have thousands tied up in it. Dont get me wrong, i was half thinking of jumping on the band wagon, but its the not knowing as such, holding me back.

TheDalioLama · 08-12-2017 10:48pm

mel123 wrote: »

Its a great question, and i dont know anyone who has a definite answer. Like its going strength to strength, if you even bought 6 months ago and cashed out now, youd have a tidy profit. But its also risky as hell. Its seems no one really knows what it is, or where it is, but yet some people have thousands tied up in it. Dont get me wrong, i was half thinking of jumping on the band wagon, but its the not knowing as such, holding me back.

Plenty know what it is and could be.

Right now it's an effective way of storing value, similar to gold. Stealing part of the store of value market from gold is enough to sustain demand/growth for the moment.

In the future, it's anticipated the transaction times, fees and volatility issues can be ironed out (some form of scaling solution/less volatility as the mkt cap grows into the trillions). At this point it could act as a decentralised global payment system, allowing us to separate money and state- this is a huge deal. It's just not ready right now.

4068ac1elhodqr · 08-12-2017 11:39pm

As mentioned above it's taking some value from gold, this just in the last 2weeks: Screen_Shot_2017-12-08_at_22.24.49.png

putting it (and silver) at a 4mth lows. Platinum at 12mth low.

Without getting into technicalities, would you really rather have some invisible computer whotknots or a nice shinny bar of gold (useful for electronics, shinny things, doorstops etc).

one world order · 08-12-2017 11:50pm

Current fiat based system is coming to the end of its life cycle. It nearly collapsed in 2008, but massive currency printing and debt creation has reinflated the popped bubbles. Its going to end and online digital currency is one alternative. Those that control the world want a cashless society and bitcoin facilitates that. It is limited in supply, unlike currency that's devalued every year. It's just part of our next development.

nxbyveromdwjpg · 08-12-2017 11:57pm

ZeroThreat wrote: »

I believe this gentleman will answer all your questions.

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/if-bitcoin-was-worth-1-each-in-2011-why-are-they-worth-12-000-each-now.206319/

That thread is hilarious.

Brendan Burgess :rolleyes:

manu2009 · 09-12-2017 12:15am

I feel a big part of the surge in Bitcoin and crypto in general is because of there decentralized nature gives people an alternative to current financial systems where everyone is taxed through the roof and paying high fees to banks.

They are an outlet that allows everyone to control there own finances and have freedom of the heavily regulated backwards systems of current banking/governments.

Obviously banks are starting to get better with introducing new technology but crypto also has its place because along with the above it offers lower fees, faster transactions which can be sent worldwide within minutes and privacy in terms of transactions where credit card and personal data can be stolen in traditional systems.

It's a fairer system overall and allows for people to make some money along the way too. It also helps when its underlying technology is going to be used to make a lot of real world systems more efficient and has many different use cases.

h0neybadger · 09-12-2017 1:14am

I bought some equipment from china.
It took 4 phone calls, 2 appointments in person and over €500 in transaction fee’s to complete the payment from my bank in Ireland to the sellers bank in Shenzhen.

I began the transaction on Thursday morning, and the seller finally received the payment on Tuesday at 4pm their local time.

2 months later, I did a similar purchase, but used Bitcoin. The transaction was done from my iPhone bitcoin wallet to the sellers bitcoin wallet.
It took all of 3 minutes, and cost me less than €10 in fee’s.

All while sitting on the jacks.

To me, this is reason alone for Crypto to work.

Dohnjoe · 09-12-2017 4:01am

one world order wrote: »

Current fiat based system is coming to the end of its life cycle. It nearly collapsed in 2008, but massive currency printing and debt creation has reinflated the popped bubbles. Its going to end and online digital currency is one alternative. Those that control the world want a cashless society and bitcoin facilitates that. It is limited in supply, unlike currency that's devalued every year. It's just part of our next development.

The crash was due to many factors

Overheating housing markets (e.g. US market) Over exposure by financial institutions to financial instruments based on the housing markets (CDO's etc) Lax regulation Banks over leveraged and under capitalised Inadequate stress tests Shadow banking system over-leveraged Borrowers buying houses they couldn't afford Lenders giving credit to unsuitable borrowers
And many other factors all happening at once to create a systemic crisis.. but stuff like this can be complex and people generally want easy black/white answers and narratives and villains

Cryptos themselves are risky, volatile, decentralised (govt can't control inflation or mitigate crashes), highly unsuitable as any sort of national currency

They act as speculative digital stores of wealth, suitable vehicles for black market use, showcases for some really amazing tech (smart contracts and so on) and are either being adopted, copied or mimicked by many industries and financial institutions

Ultimately they are speculative commodities traded on a free market. That's where their "value" is to us. Can make fantastic profits and gains.

The J Stands for Jay · 09-12-2017 11:27am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They act as speculative stores of wealth, suitable vehicles for black market use.

It interests me that cash can also have the same said about it.

To my mind, the big differences between bitcoin and fiat is the lack of centralised control and, as far as I can see so far, no link in value to an economy or interest rate.

The One Doctor · 09-12-2017 12:09pm

daRobot wrote: »

So other than trading it, and doing/buying some dodgy ****, of which many coins like Monero etc do better, what is the point of it all?

Free money?

Dohnjoe · 09-12-2017 1:20pm

McGaggs wrote: »

It interests me that cash can also have the same said about it.

To my mind, the big differences between bitcoin and fiat is the lack of centralised control and, as far as I can see so far, no link in value to an economy or interest rate.

Cash is more traceable, making it more difficult for black market activities, evasion and laundering than crypto

If illegal use becomes too big an issue, governments and central banking can severely limit crypto by e.g. regulating/forbidding banks from doing any activity with crypto exchanges (which would drive it offshore, but even there it could be regulated - it would also destroy the value of crypto)

Regulation is definitely my biggest worry for the future

cnocbui · 09-12-2017 2:09pm

Travis White Ram wrote: »

As mentioned above it's taking some value from gold, this just in the last 2weeks:
putting it (and silver) at a 4mth lows. Platinum at 12mth low.

Without getting into technicalities, would you really rather have some invisible computer whotknots or a nice shinny bar of gold (useful for electronics, shinny things, doorstops etc).

I'll take Bitcoin over gold any day. With physical gold, you get a right shafting in fees anytime you want to do anything with it. The price also doesn't really appreciate much with time as it is manipulated via the derivatives nonsense - paper gold.

You can travel anywhere in the world with any amount of Bitcoin keys stored in your phone or written on a piece of paper. Try getting on a plane, and off again, with a couple of 1KG gold bars.

4068ac1elhodqr · 09-12-2017 2:57pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I'll take Bitcoin over gold any day. With physical gold, you get a right shafting in fees anytime you want to do anything with it. The price also doesn't really appreciate much with time as it is manipulated via the derivatives nonsense - paper gold.

You can travel anywhere in the world with any amount of Bitcoin keys stored in your phone or written on a piece of paper. Try getting on a plane, and off again, with a couple of 1KG gold bars.

I'd take a wide mix of various small precious metals and gems, a desired commodity ever since mankind has been digging holes and fire pits.

Imagine you could travel with a 30k gold watch (same value as 1kg 24c), just keep the sleeve rolled down when out and about.

There is also the story of a lad in Newport that scrapped his private key harddrive with $m's BTC and is now worth hundreds of millions (at the bottom of a landfill site).

Add in price volatility, and in the near future: quantum chip based hacking.

It's interesting to watch all the same, what are the chances that NK's big Kim has put all his slaves wealth into it, as he isn't allowed to trade via other way?

kaymin · 09-12-2017 3:35pm

h0neybadger wrote: »

I bought some equipment from china.
It took 4 phone calls, 2 appointments in person and over €500 in transaction fee’s to complete the payment from my bank in Ireland to the sellers bank in Shenzhen.

I began the transaction on Thursday morning, and the seller finally received the payment on Tuesday at 4pm their local time.

2 months later, I did a similar purchase, but used Bitcoin. The transaction was done from my iPhone bitcoin wallet to the sellers bitcoin wallet.
It took all of 3 minutes, and cost me less than €10 in fee’s.

All while sitting on the jacks.

To me, this is reason alone for Crypto to work.

I've been completing cross-border transfers without hassle for years online using transfermate / currencyfair - transfer fees cost one or two euro per transaction. True the transfers take a couple of days but that's because these companies have to comply with regulations (anti-money laundering etc)

The negatives of crypto currency are:

Anti-money laundering regulations etc need to be complied with by FIAT and which bitcoin currently circumvents. This won't be allowed to continue for much longer.

I'd be fearful of having my life savings tied up in bitcoin when all it takes is one security breach to clean you out.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. What's happening is akin to the tulip bulb mania. Bitcoin only has a value because someone else says it does. FIAT is backed up by an economy in which the currency is legal tender to purchase goods produced and services provided by that economy. There is no obligation on the participants in that economy to accept Bitcoin.

It wouldn't take much for Central Bank's to establish their own crypto-currency and in the process, decimate the value of bitcoin.

New crypto-currencies are emerging all the time - it's fabricating wealth out of thin air yet nothing is actually produced. It's effectively a pyramid scheme in another guise.

covfefe · 09-12-2017 4:02pm

kaymin wrote: »

It wouldn't take much for Central Bank's to establish their own crypto-currency and in the process, decimate the value of bitcoin.

That's akin to saying that companies using private networks would decimate the value of the internet.

One of the core values of Bitcoin is the fact that it is a globally distributed network that isn't controlled by any government or central bank who all seem to be decimating the value of their respective currencies through reckless money printing.

Bitcoin is a hedge against that, but it is still a very risky investment so people should tread carefully.

daRobot · 09-12-2017 4:04pm

This video sums up some of key the issues I foresee with Bitcoin:

kaymin · 09-12-2017 4:18pm

covfefe wrote: »

That's akin to saying that companies using private networks would decimate the value of the internet.

One of the core values of Bitcoin is the fact that it is a globally distributed network that isn't controlled by any government or central bank who all seem to be decimating the value of their respective currencies through reckless money printing.

Bitcoin is a hedge against that, but it is still a very risky investment so people should tread carefully.

That's an absurd parallel you're trying to draw there.

Is the fact that bitcoin is not controlled by a government really a positive thing? - you're replacing governments that are answerable to the populace with some crypto currency creator that is not.

Money printing hasn't led to much inflation so far so traditional currency values have not been decimated. Having said that, the debt levels that money printing has caused will likely cause problems in the future.

If you're so concerned about money printing devaluing real currency then what do you think is the appropriate value of bitcoin and why?

alb · 09-12-2017 4:29pm

kaymin wrote: »

Is the fact that bitcoin is not controlled by a government really a positive thing? - you're replacing governments that are answerable to the populace with some crypto currency creator that is not.

No, you're not, the inventor of bitcoin has no control over it. You're replacing government with the will of the economic majority of the bitcoin network.

kaymin · 09-12-2017 4:43pm

alb wrote: »

the will of the economic majority of the bitcoin network.

Meaning, a willingness of those in the network to accept bitcoin as payment for goods and services. But what is an appropriate value for bitcoin? It's not legal tender, is not backed by an economy and has been literally fabricated out of thin air. Will bitcoin really become a store of value like gold when new crypto currencies are emerging all the time? And for what it's worth, I wouldn't invest in gold either as it has no intrinsic value.

cnocbui · 09-12-2017 4:46pm

kaymin wrote: »

I've been completing cross-border transfers without hassle for years online using transfermate / currencyfair - transfer fees cost one or two euro per transaction. True the transfers take a couple of days but that's because these companies have to comply with regulations (anti-money laundering etc)

The negatives of crypto currency are:

Anti-money laundering regulations etc need to be complied with by FIAT and which bitcoin currently circumvents. This won't be allowed to continue for much longer.

I'd be fearful of having my life savings tied up in bitcoin when all it takes is one security breach to clean you out.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. What's happening is akin to the tulip bulb mania. Bitcoin only has a value because someone else says it does. FIAT is backed up by an economy in which the currency is legal tender to purchase goods produced and services provided by that economy. There is no obligation on the participants in that economy to accept Bitcoin.

It wouldn't take much for Central Bank's to establish their own crypto-currency and in the process, decimate the value of bitcoin.

New crypto-currencies are emerging all the time - it's fabricating wealth out of thin air yet nothing is actually produced. It's effectively a pyramid scheme in another guise.

I have some experience transferring and converting money internationally. I always try to transfer large enough amounts that there are no fees. Why are there no fees - because the agents/intermediaries don't make much of their money out of fees, they make it from arbitrage - the differential between the conversion rate they give you and the rate they get commercially - most likely the bank rate. The best I can usually find is about 0.25 %, so if you transfer €100,000, that is costing you at least €250. If you are paying fees for a transfer, likely the rate differential is worse than 0.25% and there are the fees, making the transfer likely a lot more expensive than you had thought.

I initially got interested in Bitcoin, partly out of interest in finding a cheaper alternative to currency conversion. Alas, no luck there, using cryptos is far more expensive than fiat, however, it is a lot faster.

Bitcoin conversion to and from fiat mainly takes place on a handful of exchanges, particularly where large amounts are concerned - the only thing governments really should concern themselves with. Their registration procedures seem to be well compliant with anti-money laundering KYC principles.

As for money out of thin air - most of the existing money supply is generated out of thin air by banks via fractional reserve banking. The sharemarket is the grandady of all pyramid schemes, which is why the world's sharemarkets collapse at regular intervals.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Remove human consciousness from the universe - what is all that remains intrinsically worth? Absolutely nothing. 'Value' is a figment of your imagination, and others. It is a collective illusion, or delusion - take your pick.

In terms of security and life savings, you absolutely should never put all your eggs in one basket.

kaymin · 09-12-2017 4:57pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I have some experience transferring and converting money internationally. I always try to transfer large enough amounts that there are no fees. Why are there no fees - because the agents/intermediaries don't make much of their money out of fees, they make it from arbitrage - the differential between the conversion rate they give you and the rate they get commercially - most likely the bank rate. The best I can usually find is about 0.25 %, so if you transfer €100,000, that is costing you at least €250. If you are paying fees for a transfer, likely the rate differential is worse than 0.25% and there are the fees, making the transfer likely a lot more expensive than you had thought.

I initially got interested in Bitcoin, partly out of interest in finding a cheaper alternative to currency conversion. Alas, no luck there, using cryptos is far more expensive than fiat, however, it is a lot faster.

Bitcoin conversion to and from fiat mainly takes place on a handful of exchanges, particularly where large amounts are concerned - the only thing governments really should concern themselves with. Their registration procedures seem to be well compliant with anti-money laundering KYC principles.

As for money out of thin air - most of the existing money supply is generated out of thin air by banks via fractional reserve banking. The sharemarket is the grandady of all pyramid schemes, which is why the world's sharemarkets collapse at regular intervals.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Remove human consciousness from the universe - what is all that remains intrinsically worth? Absolutely nothing. 'Value' is a figment of your imagination, and others. It is a collective illusion, or delusion - take your pick.

In terms of security and life savings, you absolutely should never put all your eggs in one basket.

Currency fair charges an equivalent of 7bp on currency conversion. I'm very aware of hidden charges.

Putting aside your philosophical argument, shares do have an intrinsic value - it may be higher or lower than the market price at any particular time. A share is backed by future revenue / profit stream - that is intrinsic value. Fiat is backed by future GDP of an economy. What backs up bitcoin?

cnocbui · 09-12-2017 5:17pm

kaymin wrote: »

That's an absurd parallel you're trying to draw there.

Is the fact that bitcoin is not controlled by a government really a positive thing? - you're replacing governments that are answerable to the populace with some crypto currency creator that is not.

Money printing hasn't led to much inflation so far so traditional currency values have not been decimated. Having said that, the debt levels that money printing has caused will likely cause problems in the future.

If you're so concerned about money printing devaluing real currency then what do you think is the appropriate value of bitcoin and why?

Governments answerable to the citizens - that's a laugh. Are you one of those citizens responsible for Ireland having a debt burden amounting to €45,000 hanging over the head of everyone in the country? Were you in the room, telling Brian Cowan, 'sure, prop up Anglo Irish at all costs, those figures they have given you are believable and the Germans really have our best interests at heart?' Were you in on the meeting where the bailout payback rate was set? Did you agree to that? How about the latter unsecured loans haircut question, did you agree to let them all off the hook?

If the above applies to you, I'd like a word or two in your ear, in private, because I sure as hell wasn't invited and never got to express my opinion.

Money printing has grossly inflated asset values. Inflation has been low because the Neo-Con's won and defeated unions and quelled the voices of collective labour, and yet economists world wide are scratching their heads as to why wages have not grown, despite near full employment being reached. Trickle down has meant no trickle down - only the very wealthy have any spare money to spend, and they don't, proportionately consume much more than the 99%. Most people may have jobs, but they are all struggling to pay their gargantuan mortgages or rents and have little left over to consume, hence the last decade of economic dead-parrot.

kaymin · 09-12-2017 5:34pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Governments answerable to the citizens - that's a laugh. Are you one of those citizens responsible for Ireland having a debt burden amounting to €45,000 hanging over the head of everyone in the country? Were you in the room, telling Brian Cowan, 'sure, prop up Anglo Irish at all costs, those figures they have given you are believable and the Germans really have our best interests at heart?' Were you in on the meeting where the bailout payback rate was set? Did you agree to that? How about the latter unsecured loans haircut question, did you agree to let them all off the hook?

If the above applies to you, I'd like a word or two in your ear, in private, because I sure as hell wasn't invited and never got to express my opinion.

Money printing has grossly inflated asset values. Inflation has been low because the Neo-Con's won and defeated unions and quelled the voices of collective labour, and yet economists world wide are scratching their heads as to why wages have not grown, despite near full employment being reached. Trickle down has meant no trickle down - only the very wealthy have any spare money to spend, and they don't, proportionately consume much more than the 99%. Most people may have jobs, but they are all struggling to pay their gargantuan mortgages or rents and have little left over to consume, hence the last decade of economic dead-parrot.

No I didn't vote for FF in the 2006 election because it was clear for the years prior that their short term policies were ruining the economy for the long-term. I haven't banked with Irish banks since the early 2000s. I have received no write-off s. I disagreed with the establishment of NAMA, the sell-off of the assets to foreign investors, Noonan's policies that have re-inflated the property market and the treatment of the next generation. I probably pay more tax than 99% of the people in this country. And you?

cnocbui · 09-12-2017 5:50pm

kaymin wrote: »

No I didn't vote for FF in the 2006 election because it was clear for the years prior that their short term policies were ruining the economy for the long-term. I haven't banked with Irish banks since the early 2000s. I have received no write-off s. I disagreed with the establishment of NAMA, the sell-off of the assets to foreign investors, Noonan's policies that have re-inflated the property market and the treatment of the next generation. I probably pay more tax than 99% of the people in this country. And you?

Same as your last sentence and I will be emigrating permanently, ASAP.

What's the point of it all?

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