Church and School

MadDog76 · 07-12-2017 11:01PM

bluewolf wrote: »

i didn't call you a traditionalist and i don't think boasting on the internet about how you don't believe in god but enforce it on your kids purely for the craic is in any way 'traditional'. i'd say there are plenty of actual traditional people who would have a problem with this 'i'm so edgy mocking your religion by pretending i'm into it'.
the title does seem to make a non-zero difference to you since that's exactly what you're arguing though

*shrugs* I was raised a Catholic, I'm raising my children as Catholics the same way I was .......... hopefully the tradition continues and if it doesn't I probably won't be around to see it end anyway so ......... Happy Christmas!!!

MadDog76 · 07-12-2017 11:03PM

Candamir wrote: »

Ok. So your ‘belief system’ is a bit bizarre, but I’d say it’s actually the norm rather than the exception if people were honest with themselves.
The thing is though, you can have all of that - bring your children up in a traditional catholic way with communion and confirmation etc without 95% of our schools doing the ‘traditional catholic’ bit for you. On the other hand, many people who aren’t catholic - those of minority faiths and none - have real difficulty with sending their children to faith schools, and having to make them feel ‘the odd one out’ because they’re ‘different’ to everybody else. When in fact they may not be - if most of the other kids are in the same boat as yours!
Wouldn’t it be better if the kids were just left to get in with it at school and we parents did the faith stuff at home?

A big part of my traditional Catholic upbringing was the Catholic school aspect so I wouldn't like that to be any different for my children.

Candamir · 07-12-2017 11:03PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none. The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.

You can of course? And it's not your place to determine whether or not anyone who identifies themselves as Catholic, is or isn't Catholic.

All of that is a special kind of funny.
By any metric he is not catholic. A belief in god is a fundamental prerequisite. You should have a chat with a theologian about it.

Hannibal_Smith · 07-12-2017 11:03PM

end of the road wrote: »

. i have no issue what soever with those who are genuinely religious.

Except for being disrespectful enough to ridicule their religion

end of the road wrote: »

this is why we need to remove sky fairies from our schools, to insure inclusivity, and activities accessible to all.

MadDog76 · 07-12-2017 11:06PM

bluewolf wrote: »

yes? making them make their confirmation and be indocrinated in it is basically enforcing?

You're hilarious! You're definitely my favourite poster on this thread!!

I didn't "make" my children do anything, they happily collected their Confirmation money just like all their friends did ......... no children were harmed during the Mass at all.

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 11:06PM

evolving_doors wrote: »

Eh! no you couldn't, that's nuts.

Why did you suggest it then? I don't have an issue with it.

And therein lies the nub.
If the segregation doesn't bother the majority of some folk then there mustn't be a problem.

That's generally the way things work, yes? You wouldn't have a problem if the majority of schools catered to your particular whims, so why should you expect other people should care when they don't?

At least a school for every whim would still mean education was being provided for by the State, as per it's obligations.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-12-2017 11:07PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

Think I've upset more people than the Op has!!!

Well you did come out with some grade-A bull**** even by AH standards, but this IS the kinda **** that happens when people like you put themselves down as "Catholic" on the bloody census forms!!

neonsofa · 07-12-2017 11:11PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

Think I've upset more people than the Op has!!!

Upset? I clearly stated I was baffled. Not identifying as baffled but really actually upset- just genuinely baffled...in the traditional sense :pac:

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 11:16PM

Candamir wrote: »

All of that is a special kind of funny.
By any metric he is not catholic. A belief in god is a fundamental prerequisite. You should have a chat with a theologian about it.

If he says he is, then who is anyone to contradict him? Where does it actually get anyone or what does it achieve?

I don't think it's particularly funny at all, but because it doesn't interfere with me, I couldn't care less if someone identifies as a snapback turtle either. That's entirely their own business.

evolving_doors · 07-12-2017 11:16PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

Really?

Enrolement.JPG

That's just a randomly picked school policy. Nothing unusual about it compared to similar schools.
Selective inclusion isn't really 'inclusion' now is it?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.

What exactly was that special position that has disappeared from today's schools?

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 11:22PM

evolving_doors wrote: »

Really?

Enrolement.JPG

That's just a randomly picked school policy. Nothing unusual about it compared to similar schools.

What exactly was that special position that has disappeared from today's schools?

I thought it was understood I was referring to the patronage system with regard to how the Irish education system is provided for. Given that they are the largest patron in the running, it would surely stand to reason that the schools which receive the most funding would be Catholic schools.

I also said that the special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum (84% in favour in fact, in 1972!). You appear to be talking about something completely different.

evolving_doors · 07-12-2017 11:35PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I thought it was understood I was referring to the patronage system with regard to how the Irish education system is provided for. Given that they are the largest patron in the running, it would surely stand to reason that the schools which receive the most funding would be Catholic schools.

I also said that the special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum (84% in favour in fact, in 1972!). You appear to be talking about something completely different.

Oh sorry I thought you said no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 11:36PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

Sometimes I think you must be trying to convince yourself as much as anyone else. Nobody can believe that to be true.

I suppose when it's you in the position of privilege, you need to try your hardest to convince everyone that the current status quo is fair and equal.

Thankfully, more and more people are seeing the shambles of an eduction system we have for what it is and, "inclusive to all", it is not.

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 11:43PM

evolving_doors wrote: »

Oh sorry I thought you said no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

I did, that's also why I said that you appear to be talking about something completely different. I'll be honest, you have me confused. When you argue for one thing and I agree, you turn round and say it's nuts, then when I say that no one religion is treated more favourably than another, and point out that the special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the Irish Constitution nearly 50 years ago, you point out the enrolment policy of an individual school...

I'm genuinely baffled tbh.

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 11:49PM

waterfaerie wrote: »

Sometimes I think you must be trying to convince yourself as much as anyone else. Nobody can believe that to be true.

I suppose when it's you in the position of privilege, you need to try your hardest to convince everyone that the current status quo is fair and equal.

Thankfully, more and more people are seeing the shambles of an eduction system we have for what it is and, "inclusive to all", it is not.

Do you understand the difference between the education system, and individual patrons within that system who provide education, a service to the State, which the State is obliged to provide for?

Anyone with so much as a rudimentary understanding of our education system should understand at least that much, before we get into any discussion about how individual patrons are permitted by law to ensure that they maintain the ethos of their schools.

justfillmein · 07-12-2017 11:53PM

back to the original question,

steve I think in this situation you are actually asking for a bit much.
the whole school is going to this mass, so really I do think its up to you to make arrangments for your child if you don't want them to go.
if its an issue with time off work for you, then you might have to just allow the child to join his/her class.

we have no religion in our home and are not bastised, but our school is a catholic school.
I dont make a big song and dance about any of the religion stuff that goes on. some people do, i don't.
I actually would like my kiddo to participate in the class and question things, but he has no interest, & i'm hardly going to force him.
we speak about religion(s) at home ourselves, i'd imagine a lot more than most 'catholic' people we know, so i'm not worried about any indoctrination happening from what he hears in school.

last year his class made their communion, he just went to another class and had some chill time which he was happy to have.

if it was something that the whole school were going to though, he'd go with them.

I think going forward you need find out what the schools policy is for opted out kids.
I have a quick chat with any new teacher at the start of each year to tell them we don't participate and ask what will jnr do at religion time.
It has never been a problem, the school has been great with us.

*also its a bit hard to avoid catholic schools when something like 90% of the school are catholic, so parents don't always have a choice but to send there kids there.

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 11:56PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You wouldn't have a problem if the majority of schools catered to your particular whims, so why should you expect other people should care when they don't?

At least a school for every whim would still mean education was being provided for by the State, as per it's obligations.

It would be nice if schools didn't cater to anyone's particular whim and just got on with education, like they do in the rest of the world (bar the religious extremist states).

I can't speak for the poster you were referring to but if I believed in a particular religion I would absolutely have a problem if the majority of schools catered to it as I'm not interested in pushing my own beliefs on others, especially not in a situation where it doesn't belong, like schools.

The way you carry on it's as if you think atheists want the schools to start teaching that there's no god and that religion is bad. They don't. They just don't want religion brought into it at all.

You know that as well as I do but it's convenient to your argument to play the victim.

end of the road · 08-12-2017 12:08AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none. The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.

it's not fully inclusive to all. catholicism is given a higher status then other religions, as most schools subscribe to an ethos based on that religion, and are in turn funded by the state.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You can of course? And it's not your place to determine whether or not anyone who identifies themselves as Catholic, is or isn't Catholic.

it's not my place, but it is the place of the head of the church, who is seen as the most holy of gods people on earth.

MadDog76 · 08-12-2017 12:10AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well you did come out with some grade-A bull**** even by AH standards, but this IS the kinda **** that happens when people like you put themselves down as "Catholic" on the bloody census forms!!

I was Baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, I followed the Catholic ethos through school right up to Marriage and I've passed the tradition onto my children and I identify as Catholic so guess what? That's right, I'm Catholic whether you like/agree/approve/accept it or not ..........

nice_guy80 · 08-12-2017 12:12AM

I've read 14 pages of mainly nonsense

all of this would be solved in the morning if there was no religious faith formation in our state funded schools

parents would then finally be free to exercise their right to influence the faith formation (or none) of their children in whichever church, chapel, mosque they so choose outside of school time

if the religious orders want money for the school grounds, most of them still owe a lot of money for the child abuse retribution scheme

Steviesol · 08-12-2017 12:22AM

Some interesting replies, and I guess that's my query, why should i have to take time off work to collect my kids from school that they legally have to go to, just because I don't want them near a church. I do not think it is right, and I hope it is changed to facilitate all children equally.

One eyed Jack · 08-12-2017 12:25AM

waterfaerie wrote: »

It would be nice if schools didn't cater to anyone's particular whim and just got on with education, like they do in the rest of the world (bar the religious extremist states).

You're surely aware that there are numerous types of education provided by any number of education providers? There just isn't a one-size-fits-all education, and that's why home schooling is fast becoming a popular option where either the parents provide their children's education, or they employ a tutor to provide education for their children.

I can't speak for the poster you were referring to but if I believed in a particular religion I would absolutely have a problem if the majority of schools catered to it as I'm not interested in pushing my own beliefs on others, especially not in a situation where it doesn't belong, like schools.

I wouldn't want you to have the impression that I have any interest in forcing my beliefs on others either. I don't. I also don't support the idea that other people should be able to force their beliefs or their values or philosophy on anyone else's children either. That's why for example I appreciate the fact that parents can withdraw their children from relationships and sex education classes for example, an area where some people will absolutely try and enforce their beliefs and their philosophy and their values on children when those values aren't shared by their parents.

The way you carry on it's as if you think atheists want the schools to start teaching that there's no god and that religion is bad. They don't. They just don't want religion brought into it at all.

I hope Princess Consuela is paying attention here. That being said, no, I don't think that at all, I don't particularly care what atheists think, it doesn't interest me in any way, shape or form whatsoever. I only care about what people who argue that religion shouldn't be brought into schools with a religious ethos are thinking, because as I pointed out earlier - that's exactly why the religious orders established the schools - to provide religious education, to provide education to their adherents. The national curriculum is a requirement for any school to receives funding from the State.

You know that as well as I do but it's convenient to your argument to play the victim.

You're right, I do know it well, which is why I'm left scratching my head at your insinuation that I was ever playing the victim. I can't surely be in the majority and have everything my own way, and be playing the victim too! I also don't think you're a victim of anything either tbh, it's perfectly within your abilities to gather support for the type of education you would want for your children, and if that support is not forthcoming, it's also perfectly within your capabilities to provide your children with the type of education you would want for them yourself.

Weejohnny · 08-12-2017 12:29AM

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't need to know the intircitities as to how the school manage man power.

I send my kids to school in good faith, might not be their faith but none the less, I feel they should do what they are paid for.

They are doing what they are paid for. Teaching kids, not minding them you choose not to let your kids participate in one subject!

justfillmein · 08-12-2017 12:30AM

Steviesol wrote: »

I hope it is changed to facilitate all children equally.

I believe it will be. maybe not as soon as you or I might like but things will change.

try be reasonable with your school, you will be there a good few years and you don't want to be 'that parent'

(edit: just to say before anyone mentions anything about being quiet and not standing up for what you feel is right, that's not what i'm suggesting either)

you might be suprised to find out that some of the teachers might feel the same as you but they cant openly say anything(yet)

good luck:)

(2second edit to say i hadn't read comment below when i made first edit so that wasn't a dig at you waterfaerie

waterfaerie · 08-12-2017 12:33AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between the education system, and individual patrons within that system who provide education, a service to the State, which the State is obliged to provide for?

Anyone with so much as a rudimentary understanding of our education system should understand at least that much, before we get into any discussion about how individual patrons are permitted by law to ensure that they maintain the ethos of their schools.

Yes I do and I think it's the most ridiculous system in the world having these "patrons", as if they serve any purpose. Most countries manage just fine without "patrons".

Also, they do not provide the education. Teachers, like myself, paid by the state do.

I should have known to not engage with you. You have that special way that evangelical extremists have of turning conversations around in an illogical way to detract from the fact that the points you are making are wrong and you know it.

Anyway, I'm giving up with you now because I know from reading your arguments with others that you're not going to and I don't feel like getting caught up in your web of words.

OP, I think you should take your kids for the day. I don't think you should have to but the bigger system is at fault here, not the school or teachers. There is nothing they can do.

The teachers who are like me will hate going just as much. At least the non Catholic kids don't have to pretend and act like they think mass is great or whatever like the teachers do. If it were me, I'd take my child somewhere nice for the day instead of making them go.

I also think you should keep telling as many people as possible about your problem. Nothing will change if we all stay quiet.

justfillmein · 08-12-2017 12:46AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's why for example I appreciate the fact that parents can withdraw their children from relationships and sex education classes for example, an area where some people will absolutely try and enforce their beliefs and their philosophy and their values on children when those values aren't shared by their parents.

this is something I will definitely be doing and I have already discussed this with our teacher, and each teacher that we have up until the year comes when they have this class.
I don't want any religious organisation teaching my child about relationships. I do that just fine by meself, and personally I think that kind of talk should only be done within each family home

One eyed Jack · 08-12-2017 12:50AM

waterfaerie wrote: »

Yes I do and I think it's the most ridiculous system in the world having these "patrons", as if they serve any purpose. Most countries manage just fine without "patrons".

Also, they do not provide the education. Teachers, like myself, paid by the state do.

I should have known to not engage with you. You have that special way that evangelical extremists have of turning conversations around in an illogical way to detract from the fact that the points you are making are wrong and you know it.

Anyway, I'm giving up with you now because I know from reading your arguments with others that you're not going to and I don't feel like getting caught up in your web of words.

That's some web of words right there. Of course, being a teacher you are acutely aware that your employer is both the school and the State, and you are also aware that both the school you are employed by, and the State, will determine the type of education provided in the school where you are employed as a teacher to educate the children in loco parentis.

I also wouldn't make points I know to be incorrect, so it's only you then would think I'm wrong because you disagree with the points I've made. Your disagreement doesn't mean I'm wrong.

kenmc · 08-12-2017 01:18AM

I suppose it's only an issue if it actually affects you. If you're not affected by discrimination then there's no discrimination taking place.

I mean back in the whenever, weren't the "Negros" lucky to be allowed sit down the back of the bus at all? Sure if they didn't like that they could just get on a bus of their own color.

Change color for religion, bus for school and you've the same thing.

And I'm done with internet based cultists.

JupiterKid · 08-12-2017 02:11AM

MadDog76 wrote: »

I was Baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, I followed the Catholic ethos through school right up to Marriage and I've passed the tradition onto my children and I identify as Catholic so guess what? That's right, I'm Catholic whether you like/agree/approve/accept it or not ..........

That’s your complete right. But Ireland is changing and the Catholic Church is in decline. If you regret that fact, too bad. More and more parents want their children to be brought up in a non denominanational, non sectarian environment.

Mrs OBumble · 08-12-2017 02:26AM

Steviesol wrote: »

just because I don't want them near a church. I do not think it is right, and I hope it is changed to facilitate all children equally.

The same way you would if you didn't want them near a zoo or a dairy farm. I'd imagine that experiences with both are part of the curriculum at some point in a child's education.

JupiterKid wrote: »

That’s your complete right. But Ireland is changing and the Catholic Church is in decline. If you regret that fact, too bad. More and more parents want their children to be brought up in a non denominanational, non sectarian environment.

You need to learn what "non-denominational" means. Start by Googling "non-denominational church dublin" -and imagine what sort of school the parents who attend churches like these will want for their children. Then get actively involved in setting up Educate Together (or whatever takes your fancy) schools in your area.

Church and School

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