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Trump/US to recognise Jerusalem as Isreal's capital

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13567…14

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    #62
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Ipso wrote: »
    So the automatic/accepted response to this has to be violence. With groups like Hamas, the Palestinian cause is going nowhere.
    Berserker wrote: »
    Nope, they could call for peaceful protest as a response to this. They've called for a "day or rage".
    How long would a peaceful protest last? Who wants to end up under a bulldozer. Extreme violence is guaranteed here with these two sides and such a volatile situation, which is why until now no one was stupid enough to not sign the waiver


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    #63
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I don't understand. If Israel decrees Tel Aviv as the capital and Trump says it's Israel how is that different to me saying New Is the capital of the USA?

    It legitimises the occupation of Arab East Jerusalem, gives a nod and a winkthe slow drip ethnic cleansing of that area, presumes an undividided capital in israeli control , underlines the failure of non-violence - its the last superpower giving a wink and a nod to colonialism

    Berserker wrote:
    Well, if the usual suspects use schools or hospitals as bases to attack them they will. Calling them protesters is a bit generous.
    Did it ever strike you as odd that - given the large number of civillians killed by israel - there was always supposedly a "terrorist" there - regardless of the area, the number and spread that would require?
    Ulyssesgaze wrote:
    Hey, if Hamas/Hezbollah are going to set off bombs in Pizza parlors or bus stops, what are they supposed to do?

    Israel retaliates by massive over-reaction and has done since the foundation of the state. You might look up the military career of Ariel Sharon for a notion of what it was like in the "good old days".
    Ipsos wrote:
    So the automatic/accepted response to this has to be violence.

    You might suggest a clear alternative?
    Berserker wrote:
    Nope, they could call for peaceful protest as a response to this

    Fatah have been on ceasefire for decades. It's led to nothing but the occupation growing at an accellerated pace and them being sidelined into almost irrelevance.


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    #64
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    And it will encourage the leaders of Hamas/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad to send more young men out to die whilst they siphon off the inevitable aid money they get from the West and other Arab nations.

    There are no good guys in this conflict.

    But there are certainly a lot of innocent people suffering


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    #65
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    The Palestinian people are getting f**ed over by both Israel and groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Do you really think if those groups got everything they wanted that they would create a wonderful socially liberal society, it would be a sh1t hole.
    it amazes me that people romanticize groups like this and places like the Cuban regime, great for being the trendy cause of the day when they don't have to live under it.
    The Palestinian cause needs a Gandhi type figure, the longer these groups are allowed to fester the worse it will become and the groups will only become more extreme.


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    #66
    Somedude9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭Somedude9


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    He was totally slurring and speaking weirdly during the speech. What is wrong with him?

    He's a moron.


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    #67
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Ipso wrote: »
    The Palestinian people are getting f**ed over by both Israel and groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Do you really think if those groups got everything they wanted that they would create a wonderful socially liberal society, it would be a sh1t hole.
    .............

    .....as opposed to the liberal fun-fest it is now.


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    #68
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Odhinn wrote: »
    .....as opposed to the liberal fun-fest it is now.

    What's your point?


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    #69
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Ipso wrote: »
    What's your point?

    Self rule is better than occupation.

    What alternative do you suggest to violent action?


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    #70
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Yes self rule is better, but I don't get the romanticisation of groups that would be hell to live under.
    What has violent action gotten so far? If anyone thinks that Israel is not going to respond to violent action with a sh1t load more violent action then you must have been away for the last while. Hamas/Hezzbolah don't give a sh1t what happens to the ordinary Palestinian, they are pawns. The alternative to violent action may not get them any further but it will be less destructive.


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    #71
    Atoms for Peace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭Atoms for Peace


    The Czech republic and Philliphines have already made the move. Isn't it time Simon coveney quit the fake bellyaching and move our embassy to the actual capital of Israel.


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    #72
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    I know it's a political hot potato, but Jerusalem is the most important city in Israel.

    A major centre for Christians, Jews and Muslims.

    It's much ado about nothing, if you peel away the political outrage.


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    #73
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Ipso wrote: »
    Yes self rule is better, but I don't get the romanticisation of groups that would be hell to live under.
    What has violent action gotten so far? If anyone thinks that Israel is not going to respond to violent action with a sh1t load more violent action then you must have been away for the last while*. Hamas/Hezzbolah don't give a sh1t what happens to the ordinary Palestinian, they are pawns. The alternative to violent action may not get them any further but it will be less destructive.

    The only reason people romanticise the likes of Hamas/Hez is because they present themselves as fighting against Israeli dominance. If they had no reason to do this, there would be no reason to romanticise them*. Peaceful means are of course preferable but have shown themselves to not be worth very much, where has it gotten Fatah in the last day?

    It's a vicious cycle feeding off itself but it's clear that it's the ordinary Palestinian who is suffering the most, and that's why sympathies are firmly with them


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    #74
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    I always saw it as the capital of Israel. But in truth you don't have a "peace process", it's not going to end in any settlement, that train has passed and gone. Israel can do what they want because they have the most powerful lobby on the planet looking out for them in the most powerful nation on earth financially and militarily at the heart of it's financial system and political system.

    I support Israel but I acknowledge why Israel is powerful to begin with.


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    #75
    buzzerxx
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭buzzerxx


    Crea wrote: »
    I know people working for the UN in Jerusalem and Gaza. They do not allow Hamas into their schools or hospitals. The community supports them on this because they don't want their children used as shields.

    On the contrary,

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-u-n-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620


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    #76
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Atoms for Peace wrote: »
    The Czech republic and Philliphines have already made the move. Isn't it time Simon coveney quit the fake bellyaching and move our embassy to the actual capital of Israel.

    Of course others will follow suit, it's America.


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    #77
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    east Jerusalem will never be the capital of israel. regardless of whether america recognises it to be or not.
    only land received by the state of israel in 1948 is israely. anything else outside that is stolen and will never be israely, and the setlers will never be israely.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #78
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42250340

    How unexpected for leaders of Muslim countries to offer words bordering on threats at this rather meaningless action.

    Saudi Arabia "Saudi Arabian media say King Salman told Mr Trump by telephone on Tuesday that the relocation of the embassy or recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital "would constitute a flagrant provocation of Muslims, all over the world"."

    The Arab League called it "a dangerous measure that would have repercussions" across the region, and also questioned the future role of the US as a "trusted mediator" in peace talks.

    Iran said the decision risked a "new intifada", or uprising. Its foreign ministry said the US had clearly violated international resolutions.

    Meanwhile, Jordan's King Abdullah called for joint efforts to "deal with the ramifications of this decision" and a Jordanian government spokesman said Mr Trump was violating international law and the UN charter.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Atoms for Peace wrote: »
    The Czech republic and Philliphines have already made the move. Isn't it time Simon coveney quit the fake bellyaching and move our embassy to the actual capital of Israel.

    The AIPAC HQ in Washington? Alot of the fake news emanates from there alright......


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    #80
    kenmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    Wailin wrote: »
    Trump is a warmongering scumbag. His plan is obvious. Destabilise the Middle East even more. Create more mass migration into Europe and put pressure on the EU creating economical tension. Europe will gradually weaken and America will become stronger because of it.
    Do you really think that he can think of that many sequential things at once?


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    #81
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Berserker wrote: »
    Well, if the usual suspects use schools or hospitals as bases to attack them they will.

    nope, that one doesn't work any more, just like all the other old reliables used to support and excuse terrorism and cleansing by israel. the use of a school for a base only ever happened 1 time and has since been used to excuse israel's terrorist actions. the IDF bomb schools and hospitals because they can and they enjoy doing it, just like shooting protesters for protesting.
    Berserker wrote: »
    Calling them protesters is a bit generous.

    they are protesters. who are often shot for protesting.
    Berserker wrote: »
    Hamas/Hezbollah will instigate the violence like they always do.

    hamas are certainly no angels but they rarely ever start the violence.
    Berserker wrote: »
    Hmmm, stop using hospitals as bases to attack them??? Hamas don't care about the people in those hospitals and you know it. Bombing a hospital or school is wonderful propaganda for them.

    something israel enjoys making happen.
    Berserker wrote: »
    Nope, they could call for peaceful protest as a response to this. They've called for a "day or rage".

    they could, but they would be shot dead on the streets. peaceful protest in israel is for jews only.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #82
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    Hey, if Hamas/Hezbollah are going to set off bombs in Pizza parlors or bus stops, what are they supposed to do?

    not murder protesters and get back within their borders as set out in 1948.
    Ipso wrote: »
    So the automatic/accepted response to this has to be violence. With groups like Hamas, the Palestinian cause is going nowhere.

    it's going nowhere anyway. israel won't stop until they have all the land. their plan is a slow cleansing, expansion and destruction of palestinian territories, with the eventual expulsion of the natives.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #83
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Berserker wrote: »
    Nope, they could call for peaceful protest as a response to this. They've called for a "day or rage".

    Peaceful protest by Palestinians has resulted in them being shot, arrested and tortured, beaten by the occupying Israeli terrorist forces.

    And has resulted in the continued ethnic cleansing of them from their homeland.

    Remember Israel is a colonial settler state founded by European jews who have been forcing out the native population since 1948.


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    #84
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    end of the road wrote: »
    east Jerusalem will never be the capital of israel. regardless of whether america recognises it to be or not.
    only land received by the state of israel in 1948 is israely. anything else outside that is stolen and will never be israely, and the setlers will never be israely.

    Says somebody with no concept of history, every nation that has ever existed is the history of conquest.


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    #85
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    conorhal wrote: »
    Says somebody with no concept of history, every nation that has ever existed is the history of conquest.


    this is 2017, not 1817. land continuously stolen by israel outside it's borders which were set in 1948, who's natives are continuously slaughtered as part of an ethnic cleansing program, doesn't become israely.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #86
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Sure, the world could do with a holy war, right along with the Nuclear war Trump is trying to provoke with North Korea. The US is a lost cause.


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    #87
    Wailin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭Wailin


    kenmc wrote: »
    Do you really think that he can think of that many sequential things at once?

    He's in politics, advised by politicians and military commander's. Who are you?


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    #88
    chatticusfinch
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭chatticusfinch


    Wailin wrote: »
    He's in politics, advised by politicians and military commander's. Who are you?

    Considering the man regularly deviates from the advice of his advisors to take late night, meandering pot shots against anyone and everyone, i'd very much doubt he'd do much listening to anyone.

    He still gets hung up on being made fun of on SNL, the man has skin like paper.


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    #89
    Jim Bob Scratcher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭Jim Bob Scratcher


    Wailin wrote: »
    He's in politics, advised by politicians and military commander's. Who are you?

    Religious whackjobs like Mike Pence can hardly be classed as good adviser


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    #90
    chatticusfinch
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭chatticusfinch


    Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »
    Religious whackjobs like Mike Pence can hardly be classed as good adviser

    Ditto Steve Bannon


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    #91
    Wailin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭Wailin


    Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »
    Religious whackjobs like Mike Pence can hardly be classed as good adviser

    Not disagreeing with that.


This discussion has been closed.
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