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United Ireland?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Pithythefool


    The definition of culture is what's changing: people are choosing the cultures they belong to rather than accepting the cultures they're born into and promoting the idea that being defined by your nationality (or religion, or other circumstances of birth) is pretty meaningless.

    The imbalance you speak of is that traditionally middle eastern cultures are less inclined to do this, whereas western cultures are more inclined.

    Rather than try and encourage those cultures to branch out and integrate, people are trying to stigmatise them as being insular. Thus, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Your approach seems to be to want to promote a similar insularity within western culture in order to combat this, and I don't see how this works. It just promotes a "them against us" mentality.

    The reason (I feel) that you decry the micro groups/sub-cultures is because this is a massive obstacle to your plan. These are groups of people who don't sign up to your theory and it for what it is: antagonistic and repressive. But, in a free society, these groups are stronger than you are and, I'm sorry to say it, more intelligent.

    As such, your only retort is to call them names like "apathetic zombies". And maybe you know these terms are bull****, maybe you actually even believe them to be true, but the reality is that these groups have far more culture, vibrance and life to them than a restrictive nationally-imposed culture will ever have. And the reason for that is simple:

    They choose who they are. They choose what they do. It inspires them. And inspired people are always going to grow more.

    We'll disagree again! The reality is that certain cultures ARE unchanging, and that certain cultures ARE absorbing those same unchanging cultures.

    Its present tense. Not hypothetical, not self-fulfilling. It IS happening.

    And there is nothing regressive when I state that voluntary cooperation is far more ideal AND practical AND mutually beneficial than forced integration. You have just accepted the current political message a bit too much, failing to see any alternative.

    Thanks for the dig about my intelligence by the way, that's really becoming of you, thanks.

    As I said before, there is reality versus idealism. I am realistic, you are idealistic. You talk about what can be, I talk about what IS. Remember, tomorrow never comes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Pithythefool



    but while certain countries are succumbing to this ideal of non-nationality


    Your research simply relates to the spread of Islam and Islamic population growth in Europe. Nothing to do with "succumbing to this ideal of non-nationality"... Misleading statement.

    Right, I'll make the earth-shattering leap of logic for you. The countries that accept and allow extremely large populations of non-indigenous people to live in their homes COULD be the same countries that are embattled with national identity and identity politics.

    Sweden, you ever hear that country come up in any conversations about national identity? Germany? Merkel? AFD? and on and on. You cant link those things together?

    Did you genuinely need me to state the obvious, or was it a backhanded way of just disagreeing for the sake of it?

    How about an honest conversation?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Right, I'll make the earth-shattering leap of logic for you

    Lol. You're going to try talking down to me now? Okie dokie. This should be amusing.
    . The countries that accept and allow extremely large populations of non-indigenous people to live in their homes COULD be the same countries that are embattled with national identity and identity politics.

    Western culture has been struggling with issues of identity for decades, long before any major shift in Islamic immigration or drastic islamic population growth. It's born out of the apathy of Democracy, the corruption of our own political systems, and the misplaced trust in Capitalism/modern economic theory.

    However, you have still to prove any of this theory of 'succumbing to this ideal of non-nationality'... So. Prove it.
    Sweden, you ever hear that country come up in any conversations about national identity? Germany? Merkel? AFD? and on and on. You cant link those things together?

    Did you genuinely need me to state the obvious, or was it a backhanded way of just disagreeing for the sake of it?

    I can certainly link political and cultural changes in Europe... but your vague hints are pretty useless.

    Look. Leave out the snide attitude and deal with the subject at hand. You have made various statements. I'd like you to expand and elaborate on them. You provided a link to research related to Islamic populations in Europe which doesn't have any obvious connection with your statement. Simple.
    How about an honest conversation?

    How about not being so insultingly superior and debate like a normal person? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    We'll disagree again! The reality is that certain cultures ARE unchanging, and that certain cultures ARE absorbing those same unchanging cultures.

    Its present tense. Not hypothetical, not self-fulfilling. It IS happening.

    And there is nothing regressive when I state that voluntary cooperation is far more ideal AND practical AND mutually beneficial than forced integration. You have just accepted the current political message a bit too much, failing to see any alternative.

    Thanks for the dig about my intelligence by the way, that's really becoming of you, thanks.

    As I said before, there is reality versus idealism. I am realistic, you are idealistic. You talk about what can be, I talk about what IS. Remember, tomorrow never comes.

    I was going to apologise for that, but based on the post below I think it's warranted to be fair.

    Also, it's nothing to do with reality and idealism. If you're intelligent, you'll know this. What it is, is nothing more than a very long-winded and thinly-veiled anti-Islamic rant. I suspected as much as soon as you started mentioning Birmingham in a thread entitled "United Ireland" for no reason whatsoever but gave you the benefit of the doubt.

    One way or the other, your logic and arguments have been put to bed by me and others. You can disagree all you like, but your argument is severly flawed. And that's not an opinion, that's a fact - it's been proven several times. There's nothing left for me to prove.
    Right, I'll make the earth-shattering leap of logic for you. The countries that accept and allow extremely large populations of non-indigenous people to live in their homes COULD be the same countries that are embattled with national identity and identity politics.

    Sweden, you ever hear that country come up in any conversations about national identity? Germany? Merkel? AFD? and on and on. You cant link those things together?

    Did you genuinely need me to state the obvious, or was it a backhanded way of just disagreeing for the sake of it?

    How about an honest conversation?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Pithythefool


    I was going to apologise for that, but based on the post below I think it's warranted to be fair.

    Also, it's nothing to do with reality and idealism. If you're intelligent, you'll know this. What it is, is nothing more than a very long-winded and thinly-veiled anti-Islamic rant.

    How about an honest conversation?

    You cant even be honest with yourself, never mind with some stranger on the internet. No, you are seeing what you want to see. It is no more anti-Islamic than it is anti-oranges.

    I cant change the fact that the vast majority of conversation on this taboo topic is based around muslims. That means I'm going to talk about muslims. You don't get to shut down conversations because of your political beliefs, but, just in case it wasn't clear to you, the more you do that, the worse the problem becomes. We'll see how it ends up, both of us.

    A lot of what I am talking about is happening, its not theoretical. I am making logical assumptions based off projections and fact.

    What are you basing your opinions on, besides your feelings?

    I wont be responding to you again, it rhetorical at this point. You've shown your real face, its a fruitless endeavour to talk with someone who directly insults another person. Keep up the front though, when it comes down to the crunch you'll know what micro part you played.

    Consider it all moot, our conversation is over. Get your sly dig in with your next post and then we'll both be happy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Pithythefool


    Lol. You're going to try talking down to me now? Okie dokie. This should be amusing.



    Western culture has been struggling with issues of identity for decades, long before any major shift in Islamic immigration or drastic islamic population growth. It's born out of the apathy of Democracy, the corruption of our own political systems, and the misplaced trust in Capitalism/modern economic theory.

    However, you have still to prove any of this theory of 'succumbing to this ideal of non-nationality'... So. Prove it.



    I can certainly link political and cultural changes in Europe... but your vague hints are pretty useless.

    Look. Leave out the snide attitude and deal with the subject at hand. You have made various statements. I'd like you to expand and elaborate on them. You provided a link to research related to Islamic populations in Europe which doesn't have any obvious connection with your statement. Simple.



    How about not being so insultingly superior and debate like a normal person? :rolleyes:

    It wont be amusing, unless youre easily amused. I don't really know what youre asking me here, besides a re-thread of the previous question.

    You asked me "hat countries are succumbing to......"

    I said have a look at my other thread and you'll see some of the most likely countries.

    You said something to the effect of "but I don't see the link between these countries"

    I took your post as a backhanded way to just disagree for the sake of it (and I apologise if it wasn't meant that way, IF), I responded a bit snarkily, saying "yeah, those countries obviously have a problem".

    So where are we now? Youre asking me the same question, basically, no?

    Or to pick at the nitty gritty, if I accept that western countries always had a problem with identity, well then all of this is just exacerbating those issues greatly. Same answer.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So where are we now? Youre asking me the same question, basically, no?
    .

    Yup. You still haven't moved beyond my question. But, that in itself, is an answer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Pithythefool


    Yup. You still haven't moved beyond my question. But, that in itself, is an answer.

    Are you being serious? I haven't moved beyond your question, AFTER answering it.

    I'm supposed to be telepathic now, I suppose.

    You were right about the amusement, I'll give you that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    Yeah, but you'd also have to change the education system in the south to drop the fetish-like idea of compulsory Irish.

    ok, that is a different issue. I was taught Irish at school, and it was purely about the language... no politics, no negative slant towards people of a different background, race, religion... it was just Gaelige. Not everyone's favorite subject by the way.

    What I meant was to have some sort of education program that would promote integration of people from a Unionist background, and people from a Nationalist background. For example, the adventures of Seamus, Sammy, Heather and Aoife... and Timothy the dog, chapter 1. Five go off to Dublin.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 193 ✭✭21Savage


    I say we just break it up into 4 kingdoms. Nationhood is dead, push me to the edge.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Yeah, but you'd also have to change the education system in the south to drop the fetish-like idea of compulsory Irish.

    ok, that is a different issue. I was taught Irish at school, and it was purely about the language... no politics, no negative slant towards people of a different background, race, religion... it was just Gaelige. Not everyone's favorite subject by the way.

    What I meant was to have some sort of education program that would promote integration of people from a Unionist background, and people from a Nationalist background. For example, the adventures of Seamus, Sammy, Heather and Aoife... and Timothy the dog, chapter 1. Five go off to Dublin.
    You have Unionists learning the language from places like East Belfast, the fact you have lessons of the Irish language on the Shankill is extraordinary but this gets lost with some. It's steady progress for Unionist people, we most certainly do not hate all things Irish as portrayed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    You have Unionists learning the language from places like East Belfast, the fact you have lessons of the Irish language on the Shankill is extraordinary but this gets lost with some. It's steady progress for Unionist people, we most certainly do not hate all things Irish as portrayed.

    If hatred of all things Irish by Unionist people was sensed in what I posted, then I apologise.. it is not what I meant. I have friends from a Unionist background, I was brought up in a multi denominational area. We all get along well and have done so for years.
    Most people in the south do Irish exams as a means to an end. You need to pass Irish exams to be able to apply for Irish for most Civil service jobs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Yeah, but you'd also have to change the education system in the south to drop the fetish-like idea of compulsory Irish.

    ok, that is a different issue. I was taught Irish at school, and it was purely about the language... no politics, no negative slant towards people of a different background, race, religion... it was just Gaelige. Not everyone's favorite subject by the way.

    What I meant was to have some sort of education program that would promote integration of people from a Unionist background, and people from a Nationalist background. For example, the adventures of Seamus, Sammy, Heather and Aoife... and Timothy the dog, chapter 1. Five go off to Dublin.

    That wasn't my point: my point was that i can't see the bulk of Unionists in favour of being forced to learn the Irish language purely for exam result enhancements and certain jobs the way it is here.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    That wasn't my point: my point was that i can't see the bulk of Unionists in favour of being forced to learn the Irish language purely for exam result enhancements and certain jobs the way it is here.

    I completely agree, that would be stupid. A language should be something that you learn out of necessity or interest... And by necessity I don't mean requiring a certain language to apply for a government job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    I say I met a chap on Sackville Street the other day and he was enquiring how many of the King's statute miles it was from Maryborough to Kingstown.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    topper75 wrote: »
    I say I met a chap on Sackville Street the other day and he was enquiring how many of the King's statute miles it was from Maryborough to Kingstown.

    the rest of it i get but where is (or was) maryborough?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    the rest of it i get but where is (or was) maryborough?

    Portlaoise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    That wasn't my point: my point was that i can't see the bulk of Unionists in favour of being forced to learn the Irish language purely for exam result enhancements and certain jobs the way it is here.

    I completely agree, that would be stupid. A language should be something that you learn out of necessity or interest... And by necessity I don't mean requiring a certain language to apply for a government job.
    Well yes - of course - but after nearly 100 years that's not happening.

    But that's not my point: my point is why would unionists accept this - as it is NOW and most likely will be for some time to come - as part of a united Ireland?

    Answer - they wouldn't. Not a chance in hell.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    Well yes - of course - but after nearly 100 years that's not happening.

    But that's not my point: my point is why would unionists accept this - as it is NOW and most likely will be for some time to come - as part of a united Ireland?

    Answer - they wouldn't. Not a chance in hell.

    you probably know more about this than me, I didn't realize that Unionists would have to accept this as part of a UI.. it never occurred to me, and of course I can see why they wouldn't accept it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Well yes - of course - but after nearly 100 years that's not happening.

    But that's not my point: my point is why would unionists accept this - as it is NOW and most likely will be for some time to come - as part of a united Ireland?

    Answer - they wouldn't. Not a chance in hell.

    you probably know more about this than me, I didn't realize that Unionists would have to accept this as part of a UI.. it never occurred to me, and of course I can see why they wouldn't accept it.

    Fair point, hadn't considered that. I wonder would that set a tricky precedent?

    Anyway, the original comment made on the first page was "Change the education system in the north to promote integration and harmony", and I'm just pointing out that a united education plan would have other points to consider.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    A United Ireland is an inevitability


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    Fair point, hadn't considered that. I wonder would that set a tricky precedent?

    Anyway, the original comment made on the first page was "Change the education system in the north to promote integration and harmony", and I'm just pointing out that a united education plan would have other points to consider.

    There are schools all over Ireland now, you have probably heard of them, called Educate Together primary schools.. indeed they probably exist in the North. The idea is that they are multi denominational and offer equal access to children of all backgrounds, culture, religion.

    There is one particular primary school in Ennis, County Clare and there are 26 languages spoken in that school, not as part of the curriculum of course. This is an exceptional example, but in most schools across Ireland now there is a huge diversity of nationalities and cultures, so the Educate Together school system provides an alternative for parents who want to send their children to secular schools.

    This also offers children an enriching experience, and an exposure to a variety of customs and cultures that they would not experience in traditional state non-secular primary schools.

    *I sound a bit patronising here.. not intentional*


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Yeah, but you'd also have to change the education system in the south to drop the fetish-like idea of compulsory Irish.

    ok, that is a different issue. I was taught Irish at school, and it was purely about the language... no politics, no negative slant towards people of a different background, race, religion... it was just Gaelige. Not everyone's favorite subject by the way.

    What I meant was to have some sort of education program that would promote integration of people from a Unionist background, and people from a Nationalist background. For example, the adventures of Seamus, Sammy, Heather and Aoife... and Timothy the dog, chapter 1. Five go off to Dublin.

    That wasn't my point: my point was that i can't see the bulk of Unionists in favour of being forced to learn the Irish language purely for exam result enhancements and certain jobs the way it is here.
    That isn't going to happen. Anyone who is learning the language is fully entitled to do so and are doing so. No one is stopping people learning the language. I could go and start learning it tomorrow if I wanted to in a few places.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Rodin wrote: »
    A United Ireland is an inevitability

    Inevitable a few decades later. Pushing to unify the country now without first solving the economic/cultural/political problems would be a disaster of epic proportions for this whole island.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    That isn't going to happen. Anyone who is learning the language is fully entitled to do so and are doing so. No one is stopping people learning the language. I could go and start learning it tomorrow if I wanted to in a few places.

    Again, not relevant to the point I was making

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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