Brexit discussion thread II

solodeogloria · 05-12-2017 01:06PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If the British electorate are going to learn anything it should be
A) What the EU does.
All the lies they where told during the referendum.
C) How to pressure for a second vote.

Good afternoon!

I was referring to June 2017 and not 2016 :pac:

The UK still needs to carry on with the process of leaving.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

devnull · 05-12-2017 01:07PM

Jacob Rees Mogg, who recently said that the EU would be insolvent without the UK, has just tweeted claiming that the DUP have saved Brexit by vetoing the deal.

Leroy42 · 05-12-2017 01:07PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

DUP refusing to meet Theresa May.

Get the posters printed.

I can totally see where the DUP are coming from. They entered into an agreement with May, they laid out their brexit position pretty clearly.

Whilst I think it a totally wrong position to take, they are free to take it and as such have been sold down the river.

If the likes of Boris et al, being in the cabinet, knew of this deal and agreed to it then they have gone back on the very core of what Brexit was about.

If they didn't know, then May should be forced out today.

Leroy42 · 05-12-2017 01:09PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I was referring to June 2017 and not 2016 :pac:

The UK still needs to carry on with the process of leaving.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Why? There are other options

strandroad · 05-12-2017 01:09PM

devnull wrote: »

Gibraltar have said that they will not back a deal like the one that was tabled yesterday and are backing the DUP.

Meanwhile a few rebel MPs in Labour appear to have broke ranks and are now calling on Corbyn to demand Customs Union membership.

Customs Union without the Single Market, is it the Turkish model?

LeinsterDub · 05-12-2017 01:09PM

devnull wrote: »

Gibraltar have said that they will not back a deal like the one that was tabled yesterday and are backing the DUP.

Meanwhile a few rebel MPs in Labour appear to have broke ranks and are now calling on Corbyn to demand Customs Union membership.

What Power does Gibraltar have , if any?

LeinsterDub · 05-12-2017 01:11PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I was referring to June 2017 and not 2016 :pac:

The UK still needs to carry on with the process of leaving.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I'm aware you were referring 2017. It's funny you feel the UK electorate made a mistake in 2017. Yet the election of bots and lies in 2016 isn't where learnings should be found

FrancieBrady · 05-12-2017 01:13PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I can totally see where the DUP are coming from. They entered into an agreement with May, they laid out their brexit position pretty clearly.

Whilst I think it a totally wrong position to take, they are free to take it and as such have been sold down the river.

If the likes of Boris et al, being in the cabinet, knew of this deal and agreed to it then they have gone back on the very core of what Brexit was about.

If they didn't know, then May should be forced out today.

The point is, May should have seen where the DUP where coming from and not touched them with a barge pole.

The fundamental incompetence to allow herself to be embarrassed on the world stage yesterday warrants removal alone. I think it is ultimately her death knell unless she can box them back into the corner.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2017 01:13PM

Ruth Davidson, Scottish Tory leader, is opposing special treatment for NI but is also calling for whatever measures are needed to ensure an open border in Ireland apply throughout the UK.

"If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, the the Prime Minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis."

ThisRegard · 05-12-2017 01:15PM

devnull wrote: »

Gibraltar have said that they will not back a deal like the one that was tabled yesterday and are backing the DUP.

This whole thing is a dangerously hilarious farce.

https://twitter.com/DUPleader/status/938004550291742720

kowtow · 05-12-2017 01:17PM

devnull wrote: »

Jacob Rees Mogg, who recently said that the EU would be insolvent without the UK, has just tweeted claiming that the DUP have saved Brexit by vetoing the deal.

I think he was pretty clear in saying that the EU would be technically insolvent if Britain just stopped paying within the timeline of the current framework, because it has no power to borrow.

And he is right.

Sethanon · 05-12-2017 01:19PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The point is, May should have seen where the DUP where coming from and not touched them with a barge pole.

The fundamental incompetence to allow herself to be embarrassed on the world stage yesterday warrants removal alone. I think it is ultimately her death knell unless she can box them back into the corner.

I would have said it was a good move by TM. In one move she has taken all the pressure off herself and onto the DUP. She smashed out a great deal for the UK (unless you are a hardcore brexitier) and had all sides agree. But for it to be stopped by a small group of bigots in (what the english view as) another country.
This will undermine anything the DUP say now as petty and it gives TM more room to breathe while blaming the DUP

The pressure is on AF now and all eyes are on the DUP. I think it was a smart move by TM.

devnull · 05-12-2017 01:19PM

The problem is, as much as May is hopeless, Jacob Rees-Mogg would be an even bigger disaster for the UK, but he seems to have a lot of support from the extreme brexiteers who appear to only care about as hard brexit as possible regardless of what impact that has on their lives or what kind of right wing social policies are brought in by such a PM who would be even more out of touch than TM.

His knowledge of politics in Ireland is also hopeless and he seems to love mouthing what he will do and makes it out to be oh so simple but as anyone with any understanding of the matter knows, it's nowhere near that simple as he and his fellow brexiteers paint it as, just full of rhetoric, everything is going to be great and fine and anyone who says otherwise is unpatriotic and the Empire is going to strike back.

Honestly history will not be kind to this group of politicians.

lawred2 · 05-12-2017 01:21PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Ruth Davidson, Scottish Tory leader, is opposing special treatment for NI but is also calling for whatever measures are needed to ensure an open border in Ireland apply throughout the UK.

"If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, the the Prime Minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis."

makes sense one would think..

laugh · 05-12-2017 01:22PM

Smells like Arlene and Rees-Mogg are cooking May's departure.

Call an election and be honest about the financial implications of a no deal Brexit.

Sam Russell · 05-12-2017 01:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The point is, May should have seen where the DUP where coming from and not touched them with a barge pole.

The fundamental incompetence to allow herself to be embarrassed on the world stage yesterday warrants removal alone. I think it is ultimately her death knell unless she can box them back into the corner.

I think the DUP embarrassed TM following the election when TM ran to Buck House to declare she had the backing of the DUP and the Q accepted her assurance, only to learn later that the DUP said NO.

So furious was the Q at the delay in the time allowed for Q's speech (delayed by 24 hours) that she turned up at Westminster in her Ascot hat to give it instead of the Ermine and pearls and gold crown she would normally have to wear.

That should have alerted TM to who she was dealing with, but her judgement was informed by her Remainer creed - 'Must remain PM at all costs'.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2017 01:22PM

kowtow wrote: »

I think he was pretty clear in saying that the EU would be technically insolvent if Britain just stopped paying within the timeline of the current framework, because it has no power to borrow.

And he is right.

He was saying a bit more than that; he was saying that this "technical insolvency" would force the EU to meet the UK's terms [read: the terms JRM thinks the UK should be prepared to deal on].

And he is wrong. Massively, massively wrong.

laugh · 05-12-2017 01:25PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Ruth Davidson, Scottish Tory leader, is opposing special treatment for NI but is also calling for whatever measures are needed to ensure an open border in Ireland apply throughout the UK.

"If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, the the Prime Minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis."

But there isn't currently enough support across the Tory party for a leave but stay in type scenario right?

devnull · 05-12-2017 01:27PM

laugh wrote: »

Smells like Arlene and Rees-Mogg are cooking May's departure.

Call an election and be honest about the financial implications of a no deal Brexit.

If you think that Rees-Mogg is going to be honest about the financial implications of a no deal Brexit then you are living in cloud cuckoo land because he's simply not that kind of person.

He's the Tabloids dream, he gives them many soundbites and tells the leavers what they want to hear despite the fact he has no idea about politics here and seems to think the whole thing is a walk in the park.

That guy is even more out of touch than the current crop of leading government figures involved in Brexit and would take the UK much closer to a very hard or no deal Brexit.

laugh · 05-12-2017 01:28PM

devnull wrote: »

If you think that Rees-Mogg is going to be honest about the financial implications of a no deal Brexit then you are living in cloud cuckoo land because he's simply not that kind of person.

He's the Tabloids dream, he gives them many soundbites and tells the leavers what they want to hear despite the fact he has no idea about politics here and seems to think the whole thing is a walk in the park.

That guy is even more out of touch than the current crop of leading government figures involved in Brexit and would take the UK much closer to a very hard or no deal Brexit.

I didn't mean him, I meant May should call an election.

FrancieBrady · 05-12-2017 01:30PM

Sethanon wrote: »

I would have said it was a good move by TM. In one move she has taken all the pressure off herself and onto the DUP. She smashed out a great deal for the UK (unless you are a hardcore brexitier) and had all sides agree. But for it to be stopped by a small group of bigots in (what the english view as) another country.
This will undermine anything the DUP say now as petty and it gives TM more room to breathe while blaming the DUP

The pressure is on AF now and all eyes are on the DUP. I think it was a smart move by TM.

May has taken pressure off herself? She has a week at most to come up with something or it's oblivion imo.

The DUP are refusing to meet her.
I'd say she would tear Arlene's eyes out at the moment.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2017 01:31PM

devnull wrote: »

Gibraltar have said that they will not back a deal like the one that was tabled yesterday and are backing the DUP.

What's the basis for this?

Arlene Foster has tweeted that she's had an "encouraging and supportive" phone call from Fabian Picardo, but was tantalisingly non-specific about the nature of the encouragement and support offered.

Meanwhile Picardo has tweeted that, if "differentiated solutions" are possible for the various nations that make up the UK, Gibraltar would like one too, thanks.

devnull · 05-12-2017 01:35PM

laugh wrote: »

I didn't mean him, I meant May should call an election.

Sorry - misunderstood.

Whilst an election would seem to be a possible way out of this mess, it will use up yet more time, if there hasn't been enough time wasted already, which will then result in not enough time to finish all aspects of negotiations by the time two years are up following the triggering of Article 50.

You'd then have the prospect of a possible no deal exit, a delayed Brexit which would no doubt stir up the Brexiteers, note that many of them have already moaned ad-nauseum about those who want to 'frustrate' Brexit, or a rushed negotiation period to get a deal done in a short space of time which is going to be massively divisive.

What really is key now is that Theresa May calling an election earlier in the year was a massive mistake. Since the Brexit vote was passed they have wasted pretty much a year on infighting and squabbling and to top it all off called an election which wasted yet more time and rather than removed obstacles, it has actually put many more bigger ones in place.

Sethanon · 05-12-2017 01:36PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

May has taken pressure off herself? She has a week at most to come up with something or it's oblivion imo.

The DUP are refusing to meet her.
I'd say she would tear Arlene's eyes out at the moment.

One thing I have noticed after moving back from England is that our media over here likes to blow mainland UK politics out of proportion.
The general opinion I got from living there was they are happy to have TM, and they feel she is the only one strong enough for the brexit talks.
The media does push the left agenda of anti brexit against her to make her look worse because that sells. But truthfully most English seem to acknowledge that she is good. (I'd prefer Jeremy personally)

But as the week goes on it gets easier for her. either the deal is accepted or the DUP block it and suddenly all of the UK and EU are looking at them.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2017 01:38PM

Sethanon wrote: »

The general opinion I got from living there was they are happy to have TM, and they feel she is the only one strong enough for the brexit talks.

I doubt they still feel that today!

FrancieBrady · 05-12-2017 01:40PM

Sethanon wrote: »

One thing I have noticed after moving back from England is that our media over here likes to blow mainland UK politics out of proportion.
The general opinion I got from living there was they are happy to have TM, and they feel she is the only one strong enough for the brexit talks.
The media does push the left agenda of anti brexit against her to make her look worse because that sells. But truthfully most English seem to acknowledge that she is good. (I'd prefer Jeremy personally)

But as the week goes on it gets easier for her. either the deal is accepted or the DUP block it and suddenly all of the UK and EU are looking at them.

'Looking at them' and what?

The pressure is still on May to find a solution.

murphaph · 05-12-2017 01:45PM

If the Christian fundamentalists won't even meet May then a GE is unavoidable as May can't govern without them (a government of national unity is not going to happen).

Corbyn needs to make up his bloody mind about what way Labour would really go and spell this out clearly if they are inclined to soft Brexit.

ancapailldorcha · 05-12-2017 01:47PM

murphaph wrote: »

If the Christian fundamentalists won't even meet May then a GE is unavoidable as May can't govern without them (a government of national unity is not going to happen).

Corbyn needs to make up his bloody mind about what way Labour would really go and spell this out clearly if they are inclined to soft Brexit.

Unless May can secure a deal from Jeremy Corbyn about the NI border. Apparently, Labour, the Conservatives and the DUP have ordered staff not to appear on BBC Radio 4 today:

https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/status/937944871847038977

Could be that a deal might be being negotiated. Sturgeon won't allow NI to remain in if Scotland is being dragged out.

Peregrinus · 05-12-2017 01:48PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Ruth Davidson, Scottish Tory leader, is opposing special treatment for NI but is also calling for whatever measures are needed to ensure an open border in Ireland apply throughout the UK.

"If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, the the Prime Minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis."

And Jeffrey Donaldson, DUP chief whip, has tweeted his support for this position.

Sethanon · 05-12-2017 01:48PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Looking at them' and what?

The pressure is still on May to find a solution.

Yes and no. Its simple for TM.
The DUP have a choice. either give in and stay in power or go to GE and maybe have Corbyn in, who is pro united ireland.

The DUP are stuborn, but it is more likely just more of their usual bluster where they storm out and then agree last minute.

So for TM they either agree and she looks good for pulling off the deal. Or it goes to GE and she looses and gets to walk away and not worry about it. I'd call that a win/win scenario for TM.

Brexit discussion thread II

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