Brexit discussion thread II

First Up · 04-12-2017 09:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote:

I think that is what Dublin and the rest of the EU may achieve. It's either that or May comes tumbling down very soon.

Or both. Given how May has nailed her colours to the "out of everything" mast, they will only get back to reality with a new government and a new PM.

MadYaker · 04-12-2017 09:43PM

I think May will hoble on a while longer. There doesn't seem to be much faith among the public that the Labour Party would be much better.

J Mysterio · 04-12-2017 09:45PM

MadYaker wrote: »

I think May will hoble on a while longer. There doesn't seem to be much faith among the public that the Labour Party would be much better.

The only way she can have any credibility is she clears house, which she hasnt the stomach for.

McMurphy · 04-12-2017 09:49PM

blackcard wrote: »

Visiting the North and seeing the proliferation of tricolours and Union
Jacks and listening to the bigots on both sides on Newstalk today made me realise that I have very little in common with the Northern Irish. Given their history, it may be understandable that they are the way they are but if I was given the choice between living in England (as I did for two years) or living in the North, I would pick England. The people in the North really needs to understand how they are viewed by the outside world and today showed them in their true colours. In truth, they are not wanted by the rest of the UK. The only reason May listened to Arlene today was that she wants to cling to power. I think today will be a pyrrhic victory.

Way to go with the generalisations there.

The DUP are not representative of the people there, but of a prehistoric bigoted political party who have still to become accustomed to those of a different religion or political outlook having an equal say in how things are run.

They effectively blocked a deal that favoured the people in the north (all the people there) in an attempt to prove that they are more British than the people who are actually in Britain.

This is a party that actively campaigns against minorities (LGBT) , campaigns against gay marriage, anti abortion, and even has many "creationists" within its hierarchy (Edwin Poots reckoned the earth was 4000 years old iirc a while ago.

Most people in the north respect their neighbours and wish to move on from the past, so in that regard, I feel I have to correct you.

AreWeAlone · 04-12-2017 09:49PM

joe40 wrote: »

Since the DUP are so adamant that there can be no diffference between northern ireland and the rest of the UK will we see the same abortion laws and marriage equality in the North shortly.

Seeing as England has occupied part of Ireland, let us take over part of England and impose unborn rights there (with Trump's military assistance of course).

MadYaker · 04-12-2017 10:01PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Way to go with the generalisations there.

The DUP are not representative of the people there, but of a prehistoric bigoted political party who have still to become accustomed to those of a different religion or political outlook having an equal say in how things are run.

They effectively blocked a deal that favoured the people in the north (all the people there) in an attempt to prove that they are more British than the people who are actually in Britain.

This is a party that actively campaigns against minorities (LGBT) , campaigns against gay marriage, anti abortion, and even has many "creationists" within its hierarchy (Edwin Poots reckoned the earth was 4000 years old iirc a while ago.

Most people in the north respect their neighbours and wish to move on from the past, so in that regard, I feel I have to correct you.

If that were true then how do the DUP still get so many votes and seats in elections?

devnull · 04-12-2017 10:03PM

MadYaker wrote: »

I think May will hoble on a while longer. There doesn't seem to be much faith among the public that the Labour Party would be much better.

From the people I know still living in England from when I lived there for a few years, they are very much of the view that they have no love for the Tory party who they feel have drifted too far to the right but also have no love for the Labour party as they've drifted too far to the left therefore it's a choice of two evils.

I would not be able to vote for the Tory party because of the fact I detest what they are doing to health, education and the disgraceful treatment of the poor in the country and the fact much of that party is built on extreme privilege with perhaps the most out of touch politicians to ever grace their party now making it up who are blaming all the foreigners for the countries problems to try and take the focus off the fact they have run the country extremely poorly for years and essentially have a war on the poor going on.

The problem I'd have with Labour is that if Corbyn gives the unions as much power as he says the country will be crippled by strikes on regular basis and you'd end up where money is simply injected into problems rather than dealing with the underlying issue like we saw here with FF. I'm also not convinced by his feelings about the EU and honestly some of his policies are past their sell by date to put it lightly. I'm also not convinced by his economic vision or arguments on how he is going to pay for things and he seems stuck in the past.

As a centrist voter, there's not much for me out there. I would feel physically sick voting for either of the two main parties right now and that comes from a person who would have voted Labour without question before Corbyn. Even a more moderate Conservative like Major would appeal to me more than Corbyn.

Infini · 04-12-2017 10:09PM

What doesnt help them over there is they still use the First past the post system as well. Think that causes more problems than it solves.

McMurphy · 04-12-2017 10:11PM

MadYaker wrote: »

If that were true then how do the DUP still get so many votes and seats in elections?

If what were true?

What part of the post are you disputing is true, kindly point out specifically which part you're doubting and I'm sure I can quite easily provide a source that backs it up. (I would find it hard to believe anyone posting in a politics forum wouldn't be aware of their stances and statements on many things tbh)

Are you making noise for the sake of it?

MadYaker · 04-12-2017 10:16PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

If what were true?

What part of the post are you disputing is true, kindly point out specifically which part you're doubting and I'm sure I can quite easily provide a source that backs it up. (I would find it hard to believe anyone posting in a politics forum wouldn't be aware of their stances and statements on many things tbh)

Are you making noise for the sake of it?

You said the DUP aren't representative of the people in the north. If that's the case then why are so many people in the north still voting for them? They got 28% of the vote in the last election and are currently the largest party in the north. Another 13% voted for the UUP who would have similar positions to the DUP.

The point I'm making is there are a lot of people in the north who aren't aware of the realities of their situation and the options available to them in a post brexit UK. The unionists solution to brexit will essentially result in a hard border, which the people of NI are against, yet they vote for parties whose actions are going to bring a hard border back.

For Forks Sake · 04-12-2017 10:19PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A Labour majority that has the ooomph to steamroll over the DUP, and follow through on this mornings deal ?

The notion that Corbyn (who has been anti-EU for decades) will be the person to rescue the UK from it's self-induced madness is laughable.

They have landed themselves in the worst political clusterf*ck possible, a weak government with a weak PM who is reliant on a party (DUP) who, as todays actions proved, will cut off their noses to spite their face. And an opposition that seems to have no coherent plan for anything.

In the 1975 European Communities referendum, Corbyn opposed Britain's membership of the European Communities, the precursor of the European Union. Corbyn also opposed the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, opposed the Lisbon Treaty in 2008, and backed a proposed referendum on British withdrawal from the European Union in 2011

FrancieBrady · 04-12-2017 10:19PM

Arlene and unionism as a whole problem is London.
What is bleakly obvious for them again is that London does see them as different and has no selfish interest in northern Ireland.
It will be interesting to see how that affects relationships in what is left of their flirtation.
Arlene was more rattled today than angry.

Enzokk · 04-12-2017 10:19PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Of course we can look for more than just the items listed on the GFA. But we have been crowing since the start about the need to protect the GFA. That has brought us to the point where the UK (with the backing of the DUP) are in a position to say that you can have what is in the GFA but nothing more at this stage. After all, that is the agreement all sides have signed up to.

Think about it, why would May or the DUP hand over more North-South co-operation than they are required to do by the GFA when it can be used in the trade talks as a bargaining chip?

I don't know why the DUP are worried about the GFA, didn't they oppose it? They can claim to want to stay together with the UK and not be separated from the UK as a ideological point of view, but to claim that Ireland is not upholding or trying to change an agreement they don't believe in seems like populism at its best. Do and say whatever to keep my supporters on side I guess.

devnull wrote: »

LV: Not our role to make sure DUP or Tories were onside (hinting at Tory Rebels as well as previously mentioned on the thread). Says Ireland took part in good faith and they agreed text this morning, briefed opposition today but TM needs more time.

This is the problem when you are dealing with a weak PM. The EU will need to take this lesson and learn from it. Do not trust anything that the current UK government will negotiate, there is no way to ensure that someone in the ruling party will not be offended and will turn over the apple cart in a tantrum.

solodeogloria wrote: »

It's also a media communication failure on the part of Dublin and Brussels. They should have never said anything until both sides stated such in a press release.

That's my point and it is an obvious one.

Theresa May made the deal with the DUP and now she has to pay for it. This is not on the Irish government or the EU. There was genuine progress towards discussing those precious trade terms that the UK needs and its been stopped in its tracks. Trying to shift the blame for the mess that the Conservatives created is quite a undertaking.

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Way to go with the generalisations there.

The DUP are not representative of the people there, but of a prehistoric bigoted political party who have still to become accustomed to those of a different religion or political outlook having an equal say in how things are run.

They effectively blocked a deal that favoured the people in the north (all the people there) in an attempt to prove that they are more British than the people who are actually in Britain.

This is a party that actively campaigns against minorities (LGBT) , campaigns against gay marriage, anti abortion, and even has many "creationists" within its hierarchy (Edwin Poots reckoned the earth was 4000 years old iirc a while ago.

Most people in the north respect their neighbours and wish to move on from the past, so in that regard, I feel I have to correct you.

The DUP that received less than 30% of the vote and campaigned for leaving the EU that lost the vote in their own backyard is now going against their own voters and trying to dictate the NI position from where they are.

Its astonishing that we are here, but that is what is happening.

McMurphy · 04-12-2017 10:24PM

MadYaker wrote: »

You said the DUP aren't representative of the people in the north. If that's the case then why are so many people in the north still voting for them? They got 28% of the vote in the last election and are currently the largest party in the north. Another 13% voted for the UUP who would have similar positions to the DUP.

That leaves 72% who voted for someone else to represent them.

Did you think this through?

The point I'm making is there are a lot of people in the north who aren't aware of the realities of their situation and the options available to them in a post brexit UK. The unionists solution to brexit will essentially result in a hard border, which the people of NI are against, yet they vote for parties whose actions are going to bring a hard border back.

You are aware that an overwhelming majority in the north voted against Brexit right?

Which brings us full circle as to how the DUP aren't representative of the people in the north.

FrancieBrady · 04-12-2017 10:27PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

That leaves 72% who voted for someone else to represent them.

Did you think this through?

You are aware that an overwhelming majority in the north voted against Brexit right?

Which brings us full circle as to how the DUP aren't representative of the people in the north.

Not forgetting the Queens uni poll that showed overwhelming support for special status.

devnull · 04-12-2017 10:27PM

Infini wrote: »

What doesnt help them over there is they still use the First past the post system as well. Think that causes more problems than it solves.

The thing is though that the UK is heavily influenced by a very strong right wing press such as the Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Sun that is not shy at all about expressing it's opinions, even if printing those opinions often involves huge exaggerations, extreme levels of spin and terrifying amounts of scaremongering that really makes my skin crawl. They routinely print inaccurate stories then a few days later in an obscure place in the paper print a notice of correction.

Then you have the likes of Russia Today peddling propaganda as well such as their recent advertising campaign on the Tube and the Leave side which has clear connections to Russia, a number of which have connections to UKIP which in turn has connections with Trump as boasted by Farage in the past and a massive amount of right wing pro Kremlin bots on social media which altogether are exploiting the naivety of the Little Englanders pride of the 'British Empire' for their own agenda and stir things up.

What is also striking having watched a lot of leave Tory voters being interviewed is that so many of them say that they are voting Tory and voted to leave for the benefit of their children or grandchildren, despite the fact it's been proven that said grandchildren are twice as likely to vote remain than the people who are voting leave supposedly for them.

Stacksofwacks · 04-12-2017 10:35PM

Water John wrote: »

Peter Hain on Sky talking sense. all stay in the CU and SM.

Then they may aswell stay in the EU altogether, they voted leave to be able to make their own trade deals and to stop the flood of immigrants from Europe, they will be able to do neither if they stay in the CU and single market. Plus the hard brexiteers wont have it

RobAMerc · 04-12-2017 10:37PM

conservatives now claiming that it was TM that decided to pull the deal as she knew it was a bad deal for UK in general, and that she has the Irish govt and EU running scared :pac::pac:

First Up · 04-12-2017 10:40PM

Rick Shaw wrote:

That leaves 72% who voted for someone else to represent them.

As did every other party - and all by more than 72%

Rick Shaw wrote:

You are aware that an overwhelming majority in the north voted against Brexit right?

56-44. Solid but hardly overwhelming.

Water John · 04-12-2017 10:41PM

Tory Mp Bernard Jenkins saying EU has always been trying to separate NI from the UK!!! Then he also said Bertie and Enda were former Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland.

The Rape of Lucretia · 04-12-2017 10:42PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

a party (DUP) who, as todays actions proved, will cut off their noses to spite their face.

I think this line, posted by others as well, is extremely condescending to unionists.
Brexit may seem bats and economic suicide to us. And access to the EU zone, as they scuppered, a way out of that madness. But it must be recognised that for unionists, staying in the one boat with the rest of the UK, come what (Teresa) may, is paramount and above matters economical. And that this is a valid viewpoint to hold.
So they did not cut off their noses - they used their democratic influence to protect what is the single most fundamental basis to their identity. Respect.

FrancieBrady · 04-12-2017 10:47PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think this line, posted by others as well, is extremely condescending to unionists.
Brexit may seem bats and economic suicide to us. And access to the EU zone, as they scuppered, a way out of that madness. But it must be recognised that for unionists, staying in the one boat with the rest of the UK, come what (Teresa) may, is paramount and above matters economical. And that this is a valid viewpoint to hold.
So they did not cut off their noses - they used their democratic influence to protect what is the single most fundamental basis to their identity. Respect.

They took advantage of a seedy power cling deal and ignored the wishes of an almost equal identity though. In my eyes that seedy deal has contravened the whole idea of the GFA.
The DUP should never have had the say they had today.

devnull · 04-12-2017 10:49PM

RobAMerc wrote: »

conservatives now claiming that it was TM that decided to pull the deal as she knew it was a bad deal for UK in general, and that she has the Irish govt and EU running scared :pac::pac:

Well they're hardly going to come out and say anything else really are they?

At the end of the day this was not a great day for the Tory party because exposed that they are heavily dependent on the DUP and any handful of their backbench MPs can potentially veto something they don't like because of her wafer thin majority when it comes to any votes. It has merely exposed what we all knew all along when it comes to being a lame duck PM who is having her strings pulled by Arlene and her extreme backbenchers.

It's there for all to see that this government is dysfunctional and cannot really do anything because of the fact that Cameron made an error of judgement when he called a divisive referendum and May called an election that wasn't needed, had an absolutely shocking campaign, ended up with an even worse hand than before it compounded by going into power with the worst possible party as far as solving the border issue is concerned.

What you are seeing from the Tory party is simply about optics and they are for sure going to spin it so they can place the blame on someone else or say they pulled a deal, they're saving face, nothing more and nothing less.

For Forks Sake · 04-12-2017 10:50PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think this line, posted by others as well, is extremely condescending to unionists.
Brexit may seem bats and economic suicide to us. And access to the EU zone, as they scuppered, a way out of that madness. But it must be recognised that for unionists, staying in the one boat with the rest of the UK, come what (Teresa) may, is paramount and above matters economical. And that this is a valid viewpoint to hold.
So they did not cut off their noses - they used their democratic influence to protect what is the single most fundamental basis to their identity. Respect.

With respect, that's nonsense.

They had a chance with the offer on the table today to improve the lot of all in NI.
Bearing in mind that the place is reliant on Westminster handouts, the deal as reported could have been a once in a lifetime opportunity to diversify and improve the economy there - Belfast could have been a hub for business currently based in other parts of the UK who would like to maintain a base that allowed them access to the EU without the need for wholesale upheaval (moving to other parts of Europe post Brexit). Because they way things are progressing, the handouts will be in very short supply post Brexit.

There was an opportunity - for once - to do something that could have potentially improved the lives of all in NI - and they blew it.

But no, the DUP maintained the only consistant word in their vocabulary. NO.

sliabh 1956 · 04-12-2017 10:50PM

Just came across this article May seems to be on the way out acording to this guy

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/12/04/ireland-chaos-brexit-will-either-break-may-now-or-it-ll-brea

devnull · 04-12-2017 10:52PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They took advantage of a seedy power cling deal and ignored the wishes of an almost equal identity though. In my eyes that seedy deal has contravened the whole idea of the GFA.

Are you really surprised though?

This is the same DUP that was the only party in NI to oppose the GFA.

First Up · 04-12-2017 10:52PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

But it must be recognised that for unionists, staying in the one boat with the rest of the UK, come what (Teresa) may, is paramount and above matters economical. And that this is a valid viewpoint to hold.

If they were a bit less insecure and a bit more self confident they woulcn't feel threatened by a deal that gave them the sort of economic autonomy that regions in Spain enjoy for example.

Europe has a complex history and most EU countries have been able to come up with creative solutions to deal with regional economic and cultural differences.

Everyone can see that the Irish situation is very complex and the EU is sympathetic to that. But it needs more imagination than the DUP seem capable of.

devnull · 04-12-2017 10:55PM

sliabh 1956 wrote: »

Just came across this article May seems to be on the way out acording to this guy

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/12/04/ireland-chaos-brexit-will-either-break-may-now-or-it-ll-brea

Pretty blunt isn't it. Hard to feel much sympathy though since her vanity election has caused it.

If she insists on a border in Ireland, the talks break down and she is finished.

If she insists on a border in the Irish sea, the DUP pull the plug on her parliamentary deal and she is finished.

If she accepts regulatory alignment for the whole of the UK, the Cabinet hawks revolt and she is finished.

For Forks Sake · 04-12-2017 10:55PM

https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/12/04/brexit-the-dup-and-the-risks-of-not-passing-go/

I like this line...

The DUP torpedoed today’s sensible UK-EU compromise deal on the border because, according to an Arlene Foster tweet, the party could not accept any deal which separates Northern Ireland politically from the rest of the UK. This will come as a great surprise to campaigners for marriage equality, liberalisation of the abortion laws, and comprehensive education.

The Rape of Lucretia · 04-12-2017 10:56PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

With respect, that's nonsense.

They had a chance with the offer on the table today to improve the lot of all in NI.

I agree it would have been a very good have your cake and eat it deal for NI.

But.......only from your and my perspective. It would not have been an improvement of the lot of ALL in NI for those who would perceive a divergence from the rest of the UK as a disimprovement of their lot. And that is the case for a many.

So not nonsense. But an alternative view that some have up there. And I recognise their right to hold it, even it is not my own.

Brexit discussion thread II

Comments