Brexit discussion thread II

cml387 · 04-12-2017 07:01PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It really isn't. A solution was promised for this morning, delivered late and agreed by Ireland/EU; there is no onus on Ireland/EU to ensure that the solution put forward by the UK was actually signed-off. One would be safe presuming that it was or ought to have been.

Yes but.

It may seem petty but we know how these things work after years of the peace process. Anything that is immediately acceptable to one side must by definition throw the other side into fear confusion and doubt. And it would have been wiser to say nothing until after Junker and May's meeting. The DUP were responding to RTE reports about the agreement. There would have been no need for the phonecall interruption had the DUP not been stirred up.

CptMackey · 04-12-2017 07:02PM

Just watching sky news there. The Tory backbenchers really haven't a clue. He was saying ireland will leave the eu in a few years. None of them seem to grasp the problem. Just that we can continue to trade if there is no deal.
Also said it didn't matter that the north voted to stay.

Do they not realise the vote was advisory and never mentioned leaving the single market or customs union

devnull · 04-12-2017 07:02PM

Rosindell is coming across as one of those typical out of touch Brexiteers on Sky News.

He's just said the Ireland situation is a big conspriacy with the European Union who are trying to cause as many problems as possible as the EU is fighting for survival, when Brexit is a success the EU will fail so they are making life difficult for the UK so other people will think twice about leaving.

Also the fact that NI voted to remain doesn't mean anything.

kowtow · 04-12-2017 07:03PM

awec wrote: »

I'd say the rogue tories are a bigger problem for May than the DUP.

Remember that she is fairly weak politically having faced questions about her leadership in the not too distant past, as well as all the "speculation" about Boris etc.

I agree, and I'd like to hear what they have to say about the specific text. I would be absolutely with them on the issue of no border east/west, no constitutional impact on the UK, but from what I have seen and heard the fudge is a good one for the time being.

It is possible - faintly, but possible - that the hard Brexit wing of the Tories feels now is the time to throw out the whole shebang. If so I reckon the draft agreement reached this morning is far from the center of their concerns, more likely the Brexit bill and the perception that May is giving in all the time.

Tonight in London will be telling.

Does Rosindell have a vote on this proposed agreement and if so when?

ThisRegard · 04-12-2017 07:04PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

It's also a media communication failure on the part of Dublin and Brussels. They should have never said anything until both sides stated such in a press release.

That's my point and it is an obvious one.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

UK had signed off on the deal. But continue to try aportion blame on the Irish Government.

awec · 04-12-2017 07:06PM

This post has been deleted.

J Mysterio · 04-12-2017 07:06PM

devnull wrote: »

Thing is, what does the DUP have to gain from walking out? Sure, they're gonna threaten it left right and center and use it as a bargaining chip, but if they walk away then they're not going to be better off, simply going to be worse off./quote]

The irony of the PM of Britain and all its constituents hating the DUP.

Leroy42 · 04-12-2017 07:07PM

Why did may come to a deal lunch without first understanding what her position was going to be.

To try to blame the Irish for this is absurd. At worst some got overexcited. But this lunch was flagged well in advance as a deal maker.

That May turned up without having talked to her own party, never mind the DUP, is almost unbelievable.

FrancieBrady · 04-12-2017 07:08PM

May arrived in Brussels a weak leader, she is going home a weaker severely embarrassed leader.
How the UK can proceed from here without an election is hard to see.

devnull · 04-12-2017 07:08PM

Rosindell has now come out and attacked Irish Government saying they should leave the EU and the single market and customs union as they will want out soon and it will happen soon and Ireland needs the UK more than UK needs Ireland.

Also said he won't desert people of NI, after earlier saying that them voting to remain didn't matter, refuses to say how he is going to avoid a hard border, keeps speaking there are ways around it but is unable to say how, attitude appears to be we will get what I want.

ThisRegard · 04-12-2017 07:08PM

awec wrote: »

I haven't heard any fingers being pointed at the Irish Government by the UK.

The DUP are the only ones I see pointing fingers and that's more out of desperation.

I meant that the person I was quoting was continuing to try fault the Irish Government, not that the UK continue to do so.

First Up · 04-12-2017 07:09PM

All fairly predictable. The important bits are (a) the unanimity on the EU side, with Ireland's interests at the centre and (b) that May recognised and agreed that if there is a divergence of standards or regulations between the EU and UK, there has to be a border somewhere.

So its for May and the UK to sort out. The agreement drafted today is the only one that will work - other than a complete U-turn on the CU or Single Market. All we need now is a UK government that accepts that.

cml387 · 04-12-2017 07:09PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it is high time Theresa threw her hat at it.

The whole thing is stalled now. I can't see Dublin moving.

Exactly. Because there's no way the Irish government can be seen to back down now because the DUP say no. It would be political suicide for Leo.

Blowfish · 04-12-2017 07:10PM

cml387 wrote: »

Yes but.

It may seem petty but we know how these things work after years of the peace process. Anything that is immediately acceptable to one side must by definition throw the other side into fear confusion and doubt. And it would have been wiser to say nothing until after Junker and May's meeting. The DUP were responding to RTE reports about the agreement. There would have been no need for the phonecall interruption had the DUP not been stirred up.

The DUP would shoot the agreement down either way, regardless of when they found out about it. If it had gotten as far as agreement with Juncker and Tusk before failing, it would be even more chaotic than now.

Christy42 · 04-12-2017 07:11PM

devnull wrote: »

Rosindell has now come out and attacked Irish Government saying they should leave the EU and the single market and customs union as they will want out soon and it will happen soon and Ireland needs the UK more than UK needs Ireland.

Also said he won't desert people of NI, after earlier saying that them voting to remain didn't matter, refuses to say how he is going to avoid a hard border, keeps speaking there are ways around it but is unable to say how, attitude appears to be we will get what I want.

I think many are still shocked that we just didn't do whatever they said anymore. I think they assumed we would simply leave along side them.

solodeogloria · 04-12-2017 07:11PM

Good evening!

ThisRegard wrote: »

UK had signed off on the deal. But continue to try aportion blame on the Irish Government.

I pointed out two communication failures. Both obvious. One from Dublin and Brussels and the other between the Tories and the DUP.

Hear what you want to hear though I guess!

kowtow wrote: »

I agree, and I'd like to hear what they have to say about the specific text. I would be absolutely with them on the issue of no border east/west, no constitutional impact on the UK, but from what I have seen and heard the fudge is a good one for the time being.

It is possible - faintly, but possible - that the hard Brexit wing of the Tories feels now is the time to throw out the whole shebang. If so I reckon the draft agreement reached this morning is far from the center of their concerns, more likely the Brexit bill and the perception that May is giving in all the time.

Tonight in London will be telling.

Does Rosindell have a vote on this proposed agreement and if so when?

He'll have a vote on the final deal like everyone in parliament. It's true that he's on the right of the Tory party and that Romford (where he's MP) had one of the largest if not the largest vote in Greater London for Brexit.

I suspect he was on because he's one of the chairs of the British Irish Parliamentary Council.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

devnull · 04-12-2017 07:12PM

Honestly that interview on Sky News with the backbencher really was eye opening and shows just how out of touch the Tory Brexiteers are with what is going on, he had many one liners and views but was unable to back any of them up and had no idea about Irish politics, he appeared to live in a fantasy world where everything would just magically happen and work out.

Wind the live stream back however many minutes it is to 17:45 here if you want to see an out of touch brexiteer
https://news.sky.com/watch-live

flatty · 04-12-2017 07:15PM

May should expel the hardliners who openly rebelled, and go back to the country, with a clear statement that she will re-run the referendum in the light of new evidence, publish the dossiers the tories have been sitting on regarding the economic ramifications, publish the evidence of Russian interference, and see what happens. And fast. It is both her, and the uk's only real chance of surviving intact.

ThisRegard · 04-12-2017 07:15PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

failures. Both obvious. One from Dublin and Brussels and the other between the Tories and the DUP.

Hear what you want to hear though I guess!

So you're reaffirming you're aportioning blame on the Irish Government. I'm not hearing anything, I'm reading exactly what you're posting.

awec · 04-12-2017 07:16PM

This post has been deleted.

solodeogloria · 04-12-2017 07:18PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

So you're reaffirming you're aportioning blame on the Irish Government. I'm not hearing anything, I'm reading exactly what you're posting.

Good evening!

I'm saying there was a communication cockup in Dublin yes. I appreciate you disagree.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Itssoeasy · 04-12-2017 07:20PM

The DUP aren't in government in the north months after an election in Northern Ireland and Arlene Foster is not first minister and the DUP have ten seats in a parliament of 650. But they seem to be ballsing up a potential brexit deal for the entire U.K. ? Teresa may must be regretting having to do a deal with the DUP now.

MadYaker · 04-12-2017 07:22PM

flatty wrote: »

May should expel the hardliners who openly rebelled, and go back to the country, with a clear statement that she will re-run the referendum in the light of new evidence, publish the dossiers the tories have been sitting on regarding the economic ramifications, publish the evidence of Russian interference, and see what happens. And fast. It is both her, and the uk's only real chance of surviving intact.

That is never going to happen. We need to accept that brexit is happening one way or another. If negotiations break down it will still happen.

Billy86 · 04-12-2017 07:26PM

devnull wrote: »

Rosindell has now come out and attacked Irish Government saying they should leave the EU and the single market and customs union as they will want out soon and it will happen soon and Ireland needs the UK more than UK needs Ireland.

As unpleasant as this whole situation is, it is still kind of nice to be part of the bigger side for once when our neighbours are getting noisy.

Phonehead · 04-12-2017 07:27PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

I'm saying there was a communication cockup in Dublin yes. I appreciate you disagree.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

No the biggest cockup was that the Prime Minister of the UK came to the negotiation table and hammered out an agreement that she had no mandate to make. Honestly, we are now at a point that the British Government are a lame duck, they have no power to bring about an agreement. The incompetence that the EU have to deal with at the negotiating table is seismic.

Beechwoodspark · 04-12-2017 07:29PM

Phonehead wrote: »

No the biggest cockup was that the Prime Minister of the UK came to the negotiation table and hammered out an agreement that she had no mandate to make. Honestly, we are now at a point that the British Government are a lame duck, they have no power to bring about an agreement. The incompetence that the EU have to deal with at the negotiating table is seismic.

Yep. Absolutely farcical rubbish from May and her govt today. The decline of the UK continues apace.

Shocking stuff.

ThisRegard · 04-12-2017 07:29PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

I'm saying there was a communication cockup in Dublin yes. I appreciate you disagree.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Hello, Ireland and the EU, yeah, this is Britian, we're happy with the text and signed off, let's go ahead publicly.

That's not a communications cock up in Dublin no matter how you try twist it.

Beechwoodspark · 04-12-2017 07:31PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

I'm saying there was a communication cockup in Dublin yes. I appreciate you disagree.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Hardly trying to distract from the absolutely farcical cockup by the UK today are we?

Much thanks(?!)
Bws

04-12-2017 07:34PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

I'm saying there was a communication cockup in Dublin yes. I appreciate you disagree.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Would you mind confirming that your position on this is as follows?

Any county that receives a proposal from he British government, and naively believes that the British government has have the capacity to go through with what they wrote, is making a cockup.

That's all I'm seeing.

You used to argue here that we should trust the UK.. Now you're insulting our government for believing something it wrote.

MadYaker · 04-12-2017 07:35PM

I don’t understand why May would allow this deal to move forward without the DUP and up to 20 Tory MPs (according to the BBC) being fully aware of and having agreed to the details.

Brexit discussion thread II

Comments