Brexit discussion thread II

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Like me or lump me - I do think that the thread should be about discussing Brexit and not about discussing me.

Feel free to put my posts on ignore if you don't want to hear from me.

I do feel that there are some posters who only want to hear people like them though without any form of disagreement. They are welcome to that discussion, but I feel they are the poorer for it. Part of the outcome of the forum being located in Ireland is that people are concluded on their view of the EU as an all benevolent institution and really there's not much scope for disagreement leading to views like mine getting written off at face value.

Whereas in the UK itself there are significant numbers of leavers and remainers which leads to a more balanced discussion by nature.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I agree, it should be about discussing Brexit. Your posts don't help. 7 references to yourself, 4 thinks/feels plus more baseless assertions, zero facts, zero evidence. Oh, and lets not forget the personal post branding that you know irritates people and several posters have asked you to cut down on.

Anyway, I might as well be talking to the wall, so that'll be the end of it.

MBSnr wrote: »

Ha ha! Not in my experience. Some of the UK forums appear to have reasoned logical posts by remainers, punctuated with ridiculous posts by leavers which have no basis in fact.... Ironically the Irish posters on the UK forums tend to post the most balanced and factual details. I'm actually surprised by their restraint in their replies to the most stupid suggestions or solutions 'posted' by many leavers, once they realise the poster is Irish...

What forums are there? I'd be interested to read British opinion in some format that isn't comment sections.

The Swiss "model".

Here is a technical description of the 9km truck queuing system from the local road management authority:
https://www.svz-bw.de/vls_a5.html (in German)

The traffic control system Weil am Rhein was built due to the almost daily truck traffic jams. If there is no truck traffic jam, the functions of the route control system, such as speed specifications, warning of weather conditions and truck overtaking bans, are displayed.

(with Google translate)

For some idea of the scale of the facilities:
87 acres, 140 employees on the Swiss side and 145 employees on the German side.
https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/basel-baselland/neue-zollanlage-soll-lastwagenabfertigung-beschleunigen

Samaris wrote: »

What forums are there? I'd be interested to read British opinion in some format that isn't comment sections.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "comment sections" but a site that seems to deal mostly with UK politics and is, to me pretty, much evenly divided between Leavers and Remainers is https://forums.digitalspy.com/categories/politics

Some interesting reading, factual detail (esp regarding WTO trade etc from a poster called sangreal) and the odd laugh from the comments.

Plenty of Irish posters there that are giving an insight in to things Irish, especially a perspective on Brexit from another country.

Interestingly the Leavers have become far less active on there since Brexit started to unravel....

There are others in the UK which a google search will find, much like politics.ie, but seem rather dull in comparison...

Donald Tusk's visit to Dublin this week was illuminating. He made this statement in Dublin which I think sums up how stupid the DUP backing Brexit really is:

Mr Tusk was speaking after talks with the Irish prime minister in Dublin on Friday.

He said: "The UK's future lies - in some ways - in Dublin".

steddyeddy wrote: »

Donald Tusk's visit to Dublin this week was illuminating. He made this statement in Dublin which I think sums up how stupid the DUP backing Brexit really is:

Mr Tusk was speaking after talks with the Irish prime minister in Dublin on Friday.

He said: "The UK's future lies - in some ways - in Dublin".

Im lovng this turn of events tbh, rubbing Paisley Jrs face in it

Sand wrote: »

There are proponents of Brexit who have a coherent view and are able to argue it. They have different values, and different priorities but they do weigh up costs and understand choices must be made and they recognise the EU is not being vindictive when it represents the interests of its members. They know they cannot have their cake and eat it. It would be very interesting to have contributions such proponents, but they're like unicorns, and usually attacked by both Remain and Brexit supporters.

I think my issue with most brexiteers' views tends to centre around one point: how much does the membership of the EU and Single Market benefit its member countries. I tend to think that it is massively under recognised in the peoples thinking (not just brexiteers).

The more I look at Brexit related elements during study and work, the more I realised that the benefits of EU are ingrained into how we work but also ingrained into how we think things should work. Activities such as transferring funds, imports, exports, borders, holidays, recognition of education qualifications, standards in medical drugs etc. have all become easier and become common place. Hence they are not recognised as important as they actually are. I think Barnier pointed this out some time ago - "Britain needs to be taught" speech. I think he is absolutely right.

So what tends to happen is that people are discussing the same problem but from entirely different viewpoints. One group of people will be getting a difficult lesson soon.

Jaggo wrote: »

I think my issue with most brexiteers' views tends to centre around one point: how much does the membership of the EU and Single Market benefit its member countries. I tend to think that it is massively under recognised in the peoples thinking (not just brexiteers).

The more I look at Brexit related elements during study and work, the more I realised that the benefits of EU are ingrained into how we work but also ingrained into how we think things should work. Activities such as transferring funds, imports, exports, borders, holidays, recognition of education qualifications, standards in medical drugs etc. have all become easier and become common place. Hence they are not recognised as important as they actually are. I think Barnier pointed this out some time ago - "Britain needs to be taught" speech. I think he is absolutely right.

So what tends to happen is that people are discussing the same problem but from entirely different viewpoints. One group of people will be getting a difficult lesson soon.

I agree, the point I'm making is that certain Brexiteers accept all the benefits of the EU, they accept all the positives. They simply prioritise national (or direct) sovereignty more. It is well worth exploring 'Flexit'. Its a Brexiteer doctrine which recognises that you cannot dismantle a 40-50 year symbiotic legal and political relationship between the UK and the EU in just 24 months. The argument is Brexit is a generational project, and the initial step is to move from EU membership to EEA/EFTA membership.

They argue that only 25% of EU directives and laws relates to the functioning of the EEA. So 75% of Brussels 'red tape' disappears immediately, while still maintaining Single Market membership. They also argue that the EU is actually a rules taker on a global level - many EU directives are implementations of global agreements. Lets remember the EU is beholden to the WTO - we *cant* compromise on the UK border without compromising on all borders. Flexiteers point to Norway which in theory is beholden to the EU as a member of EFTA, but in the fisheries industry Norway is hugely active and influential at the global level - which then passes agreements down to the EU to be implemented regionally. They argue the UK could equally seek influence at a global level on the industries that matter most to the UK and thus influence the result before the EU implements it and the EEA follows suit. They also argue that EFTA members are more easily able to defy the EU on red line issues than EU members are.

But ultimately, they view EFTA as a temporary safe harbour. To exit the EU, find a non-economically disastrous outcome, and then plan further developments from that safe point.

If you can cross the bridge that someone simply may not want EU membership and the 'ever closer union' that entails, they are entirely rational and indeed I've learned a huge amount about how the EU and the single market works from them. The problem is they are a tiny minority, and the Brexit project has been taken over lock stock and barrel by idiots to the despair of ourselves, and indeed the Flexiteers who are scathing of May, Bojo and the British political elite as a whole.

I would think it would be great for the debate if Flexiteers were involved in the thread, as they really have been thinking about how to achieve the best possible Brexit for a decade or more.

But instead we get... well, you know.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/936717569066758145

I laugh, but its true. My mother (who is not hugely political, nor particularly sympathetic to the EU on an emotional level) excitedly contacted me today to tell me 'the head man in the EU' said the future of the UK depended on Dublin. She was hugely impressed.

I think the EU is demonstrating to its members why its better to be in a group, than outside it. Ireland is a small country, but with the EU we have 450 million people standing behind us on the issues that matter the most to us. Equally we stand with them on the issues that matter most for them. I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world.

MBSnr wrote: »

Not entirely sure what you mean by "comment sections" but a site that seems to deal mostly with UK politics and is, to me pretty, much evenly divided between Leavers and Remainers is https://forums.digitalspy.com/categories/politics

Some interesting reading, factual detail (esp regarding WTO trade etc from a poster called sangreal) and the odd laugh from the comments.

Plenty of Irish posters there that are giving an insight in to things Irish, especially a perspective on Brexit from another country.

Interestingly the Leavers have become far less active on there since Brexit started to unravel....

There are others in the UK which a google search will find, much like politics.ie, but seem rather dull in comparison...

Thanks, just the sort of thing I was looking for. Trying to gauge British (more so English) opinion through comment sections of newspaper articles is only sorta useful.