Brexit discussion thread II

Schorpio · 26-11-2017 07:37PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

It is possible that Brexit can be implemented badly. I.E the Government not achieving a trade deal with the EU and not expanding trading relationships elsewhere but this wouldn't make me conclude that Brexit should be stopped. The UK isn't compatible with EU membership. It seems to go against the overriding political philosophy here.

I find a lot of the shibboleths on this thread interesting. You can't be Irish if you do X or you must think this if you're Irish. This is of course a highly flawed way of thinking.

I think you've hit the nail on the head of why a lot of people get frustrated when talking to Leave supporters. Your post states that a bad Brexit is better than no Brexit. That sort of mentality doesn't lend itself to any sort of meaningful discussion. It essentially means that there is nothing anyone can say. nothing of significance that can happen, which would change your mindset. It's an entirely closed mentality.

Regarding my mention of you being Irish and the DUP - I wasn't actually referring to any of the DUP's policies, nor was I championing Sinn Fein. What I meant was that, the Irish and UK governments are supposed to be the mediators in NI, and it's bad for NI when one of the mediators now depends on the party on one side of the debate. I would say the exact same about SF getting into power down here. But anyway, different topic!

steddyeddy · 26-11-2017 07:38PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't understand that. Why can't the NI issue be resolved prior to trade talks? Do UK have a position or not? If it can only be resolved after trade talks then aren't they admitting that the don't actually have any position and are as likely to give up on NI as they are to stand firm.

They could resolve it if NI stayed in the single market, but the DUP have May's ear and won't stand for it.

flaneur · 26-11-2017 07:41PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Sure, and the UK can decide who they allow into their country at their own will, but I don't know how someone can ask the country to take back control of their borders if they have an open border. There is passport/ID checks when you arrive in Ireland from the UK, but none when you travel the other way. That is not taking back control and for me its just a phrase used to justify leaving the EU by any means and by any reason.

My concern is that we'll get an ultimatum of either losing the CTA or restricting access to Ireland for EU nationals, which would breech the treaties.

Unless we can get the UK to sign a binding treaty with Ireland as a bilateral on this, we are always going to be at the whim of whoever's in No 10 and the mood at Westminster.

GalwayMark · 26-11-2017 07:42PM

flaneur wrote: »

My concern is that we'll get an ultimatum of either losing the CTA or restricting access to Ireland for EU nationals, which would breech the treaties.

I'd rather lose the CTA since I don't want to be stuck with the brextremist losers.

flaneur · 26-11-2017 07:43PM

GalwayMark wrote: »

I'd rather lose the CTA since I don't want to be stuck with the brextremist losers.

So far, it hasn't come to that.

ancapailldorcha · 26-11-2017 08:09PM

Mod: Less of the name calling please.

murphaph · 26-11-2017 08:18PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

Nobody said that free movement of Irish citizens under the CTA would end during the referendum campaign or now. The Government have been clear they intend for this to continue.

Inventing problems that don't exist isn't helpful. If anyone isn't sure in respect to what is being proposed I'd advise them to read the documents that have been published.

The UK has also been clear that free travel from the EU will continue. Freedom of movement for work without a visa will end. The UK Border Force will enforce this in the same way as it enforces other visa waivers for travel. Deportation will be issued for those who overstay and violate the terms of their visa.

Muddying the waters and saying that the Government haven't been clear when they have stated all these things is dishonest at best.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

How do you know Pavel from Poland has overstayed when he arrived via Dublin and the CTA and his entry into the UK was never documented?

murphaph · 26-11-2017 08:44PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

There are lots of opportunities for me and I'm thankful for what God's given me since being here.

The Lord(s) giveth and the Commons taketh away.

Be very very careful what you wish for. Poles and Spaniards felt just as happy and safe as you a few months ago.

British public opinion could easily be manipulated in an anti-Irish direction with the way things are going.

murphaph · 26-11-2017 08:57PM

kowtow wrote: »

Not at all, it's a matter of historical and legal fact.

Irish people have always been absolutely free to go and live in the UK, and vice versa, an arrangement formalised by the CTA in the 1920's but no doubt reflecting the position as it had already been for many years.

Irish people can live, work, vote, and claim pensions in the UK immediately upon arrival there. They do not do so as EU citizens but as Irish citizens - my Mother, as a matter of fact, who is in her nineties, still has her main home there as she has done through most of the last fifty years or more and has never seen the need to change her Irish passport.

Just stop for a moment and consider what our Government's reaction would have been if UK ministers suggested that the Irish Ministers were incompetent, or that our voters had been stupid or ill informed when they voted in the EU referenda, and that they should enter a customs union with the UK in order to protect the Good Friday agreement. Our media would be incandescent at the perceived slight on this country.

When push comes to shove there really are close ties between Ireland and the UK, many families span both and will continue to do so despite the obvious cultural and political differences. A bit of mutual respect and understanding of each other's positions would move us forward a lot quicker than this grandstanding - and that applies to politicians (and voters, and commenters) on both sides of the Irish sea.

I find it slightly humourous that you and solo seem to think the 1949 Act can't be repealed in post Brexit Britain. They are repealing the European Communities Act for heaven's sake. The 49 Act would be trivial in comparison!!

There's a certain smugness about the whole thing which I find very off-putting.

First they came for the EU26, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not from the EU26.

jm08 · 26-11-2017 09:01PM

Informative poll conducted by Queens and published on sluggerotoole.

Questions asked:

‘People should be prepared to accept border controls between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, if this is agreed in the Brexit negotiations between the Government and the EU’.
Overall, 49% agreed with this, and 39% disagreed (with 12% neither agreeing or disagreeing).

‘After the UK leaves the EU, there should be free movement across the Irish border, as at present, but border controls between the island of Ireland and Great Britain’.

Overall, 64% agreed and 25% disagreed (with 11% undecided).

The survey was designed by QUB researchers, Professors Coakley and Garry, and the fieldwork was conducted by Ipsos MORI between 7th and 27th September 2017, consisting of 1,015 interviews with members of the public.

More info here:

https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/11/26/exclusive-poll-unionist-supporters-content-with-east-west-post-brexit-border-controls/

The Rape of Lucretia · 26-11-2017 09:14PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

They could resolve it if NI stayed in the single market, but the DUP have May's ear and won't stand for it.

Mmmm. But is this the UK strategy, and they are actually playing a very astute game - they are are the one holding the gun to the EU's head. And that this is the subtext to the 'how can we define the border solution without knowing the trade arrangements' line : effectively - 'give us free and open EU trade, even though we are outside the EU, or NI gets it'. The 'it' being an internal border on the UK side of the Eire border.

kowtow · 26-11-2017 09:20PM

murphaph wrote: »

I find it slightly humourous that you and solo seem to think the 1949 Act can't be repealed in post Brexit Britain. They are repealing the European Communities Act for heaven's sake. The 49 Act would be trivial in comparison!!

There's a certain smugness about the whole thing which I find very off-putting.

First they came for the EU26, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not from the EU26.

How far do we proceed with your line of argument? That no country should be able to pass laws governing it's own territory? That countries, peoples, and domestic governments are somehow untrustworthy unless brought to heel and supervised by the magical EU? Should Australia, Canada, China ... Dubai... any of the other myriad places that Irish people live and work and call home also be tarnished with this brush?

If there is smugness amongst those who support Brexit then it is nothing to the shrill selfishness exhibited by many in this thread. To compare the situation of the Irish in the UK to the Jews in Germany in the 1930's is a monstrous exaggeration.. the kind of "me too, don't forget me" wannabe victim-hood which beggars belief.

Only History will tell us whether the British Electorate was right or wrong in their decision to leave the EU, but it is - and was - their decision. This thread is the most shocking example of closed mindedness - a continuous stream of invective aimed at some imaginary blue collar uneducated or misled voter and those who would mislead him - along with accusations (and predictions) of racism, xenophobia, and absolutely anything seized on in a quest to somehow prove the Electorate wrong in the decision they made.

Absolutely nowhere can I find an example of the sort of open minded soul searching or thoughtful debate which might (1) make the EU a better place or draw any kind of lesson for the future from Brexit or (2) suggest any practical and mutually acceptable arrangements for the UK, Ireland, and EU going forward which might benefit all of us together. This despite the undisputed fact that Ireland will suffer more economically the further the UK is isolated in the years to come.

Brexit was a democratic decision, and the UK is a sovereign nation. For a country which fought hard for sovereignty, and professes to love democracy, we don't seem to be showing much respect for either if this debate is anything to go by.

murphaph · 26-11-2017 09:34PM

When (not if) Brexit goes tits up and the right wing press is looking for their scapegoats the Irish (if our government plays hard for our interests) will be high up on the list. The average daily mail reader can then exercise their democratic right to crack down on Irish immigrants too.

Vronsky · 26-11-2017 09:37PM

murphaph wrote: »

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

You do say that the UK thinks that Ireland needs access to it to get to the outside world. That's broadly speaking true. It does. That's what I was responding to. I agree that most goods from the Republic don't pass through NI but they definitely do pass through the UK.

This is why we should be looking for a good deal.

As for open Britain and the EU being open. The EU is open to itself primarily. It is highly protectionist in respect to the wider world however.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Can you name a few countries or trade blocs that are less protectionist than the EU?

If the UK cuts Irish trucks off it will face massive retaliation from the EU and will be ruined. The EU will at the same time massively invest in the southern Irish and French ports and the connecting ferries to reconnect Ireland to the continent.

Good evening at 6am on a Saturday morning in the UK? Are you in the UK?

Oh and what about a replacement for EASA by (latest) March 2019?

Isn't it wonderful that it was that his schtick that had betrayed his location, and I dare say, motive?

Kermit.de.frog · 26-11-2017 09:41PM

https://twitter.com/GerardBattenMEP/status/934821820859068417

Lovely

Professor Moriarty · 26-11-2017 09:44PM

kowtow wrote: »

How far do we proceed with your line of argument? That no country should be able to pass laws governing it's own territory? That countries, peoples, and domestic governments are somehow untrustworthy unless brought to heel and supervised by the magical EU? Should Australia, Canada, China ... Dubai... any of the other myriad places that Irish people live and work and call home also be tarnished with this brush?

If there is smugness amongst those who support Brexit then it is nothing to the shrill selfishness exhibited by many in this thread. To compare the situation of the Irish in the UK to the Jews in Germany in the 1930's is a monstrous exaggeration.. the kind of "me too, don't forget me" wannabe victim-hood which beggars belief.

Only History will tell us whether the British Electorate was right or wrong in their decision to leave the EU, but it is - and was - their decision. This thread is the most shocking example of closed mindedness - a continuous stream of invective aimed at some imaginary blue collar uneducated or misled voter and those who would mislead him - along with accusations (and predictions) of racism, xenophobia, and absolutely anything seized on in a quest to somehow prove the Electorate wrong in the decision they made.

Absolutely nowhere can I find an example of the sort of open minded soul searching or thoughtful debate which might (1) make the EU a better place or draw any kind of lesson for the future from Brexit or (2) suggest any practical and mutually acceptable arrangements for the UK, Ireland, and EU going forward which might benefit all of us together. This despite the undisputed fact that Ireland will suffer more economically the further the UK is isolated in the years to come.

Brexit was a democratic decision, and the UK is a sovereign nation. For a country which fought hard for sovereignty, and professes to love democracy, we don't seem to be showing much respect for either if this debate is anything to go by.

What exactly did the British electorate vote for? Unless you can describe precisely what it is that the Leave voters voted for, then by definition they have been misled.

The EU has been very good for our economy and society. If a country's decision to leave the EU threatens peace in our country, will badly hurt our economy and will damage the EU, then that country can expect a lot of criticism. Especially if it doesn't have the integrity to admit the damage it is doing.

steddyeddy · 26-11-2017 09:46PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Mmmm. But is this the UK strategy, and they are actually playing a very astute game - they are are the one holding the gun to the EU's head. And that this is the subtext to the 'how can we define the border solution without knowing the trade arrangements' line : effectively - 'give us free and open EU trade, even though we are outside the EU, or NI gets it'. The 'it' being an internal border on the UK side of the Eire border.

They haven't got a gun. The EU holds all the cards. The UK can define the border by allowing NI to enter the single market. After all it did vote to remain.

The Rape of Lucretia · 26-11-2017 09:50PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

They haven't got a gun. The EU holds all the cards. The UK can define the border by allowing NI to enter the single market. After all it did vote to remain.

How small regions of the UK votes is irrelevant.

The UK can define the border as you say. But it can also define it along the border of the six. Or at least threaten to, if it calculated the EU will back down on taking that risk, and give it a great Brexit deal with access to the common market.

Schorpio · 26-11-2017 09:50PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GerardBattenMEP/status/934821820859068417

Lovely

Meh. I can think of much better things to do than pay attention to anything UKIP tweet. Nigel should be a full-time magician after the disappearing act he pulled after the vote passed and people were looking to him for some hint of what should come next.

Anthracite · 26-11-2017 10:01PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GerardBattenMEP/status/934821820859068417

Lovely

For those like our friend Solo who believe that British imperial attitudes are a thing of the past.

Anthracite · 26-11-2017 10:04PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Mmmm. But is this the UK strategy, and they are actually playing a very astute game - they are are the one holding the gun to the EU's head. And that this is the subtext to the 'how can we define the border solution without knowing the trade arrangements' line : effectively - 'give us free and open EU trade, even though we are outside the EU, or NI gets it'. The 'it' being an internal border on the UK side of the Eire border.

They are holding a gun to their own heads. We'll just get some of the splatter should they choose to fire.

kowtow · 26-11-2017 10:07PM

Vronsky wrote: »

Isn't it wonderful that it was that his schtick that had betrayed his location, and I dare say, motive?

?

steddyeddy · 26-11-2017 10:33PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

How small regions of the UK votes is irrelevant.

The UK can define the border as you say. But it can also define it along the border of the six. Or at least threaten to, if it calculated the EU will back down on taking that risk, and give it a great Brexit deal with access to the common market.

It's not irrelevant to those countries who voted remain. Both countries, Scotland and the North have sizeable numbers of people wanting independence from Britain. If the UK plays its cards wrong, which it is, it will lose two countries.

steddyeddy · 26-11-2017 10:37PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GerardBattenMEP/status/934821820859068417

Lovely

To be honest I think Ireland's suffered more from British immigration than vice versa. Hence the problems with the North.

Leroy42 · 26-11-2017 10:41PM

I have seen very little invective on this thread. What I have seen is people asking questions. Questions that should have a single answer but in most cases all anybody can provide is a position paper or he never actually said that.

Brexit is going to have a major impact on Ireland, and whilst I wouldn't expect the UK electorate to make that a major part of their decision, to simply ignore the effect of ones decisions on others is of course going to bring a backlash from that party.

I find it ironic that the UK have been moaning and demonising the EU for years but any hint of a question from Ireland is met with annoyance.

UK is free to make whatever choices it wants, but many of the questions on this thread are based on the lies and misinformation peddled during the campaign that apparently the voter acted on. All the brexiteers telling everyone to respect the vote yet they see no problem in the path to that vote being lined with lies.

Despite continuing questions there are never any answer beyond lets wait and see.

Leonard Hofstadter · 26-11-2017 10:49PM

Schorpio wrote: »

Meh. I can think of much better things to do than pay attention to anything UKIP tweet. Nigel should be a full-time magician after the disappearing act he pulled after the vote passed and people were looking to him for some hint of what should come next.

To be fair there's no shortage of Irish people saying anti-British things, it's been there as long as I've been alive.

Just because we are (rightly) appalled by the actions of the British Government and some of the things leave advocates want, doesn't mean we should take it out on the whole country and especially the 48% of the electorate who did after all vote to stay.

For starters it doesn't serve our interests to try and sour the great progress that was being made on UK-Irish relations before Brexit. Now of course we have to stand tall on the border issue - and ironically one of the reasons I support the Taoiseach's strong line on it is precisely because I don't want a border and the possibility of the bad old days coming back.

I think it's far better to take the dent on Anglo-Irish relations now (it will recover once some sort of UK-EU deal is agreed - and I think ultimately one will be agreed because the Tories know no trade deals will destroy the UK's economy despite all their rhetoric and I don't think Theresa May is as daft as some of her colleagues such as BoJo and especially Liam Fox) than to potentially allow a permanent border and all that that would entail - that really would destabilise things in the North with the obvious knock-on consequences.

Whether we like it our lump it, and because of rather than in spite of, our history, our two countries will be forever connected and forever intertwined. That's why Brexit is so sad as it does threaten to undo the many bonds that tie us together, I have always had good time for the Brits and they've been nothing but very good to me in the 5+ years I've been in the UK. I am personally really sad that a country I used to admire so much and a country that I always thought was a much more modern, liberal, tolerant and open-minded one than our own has chosen to tell the rest of the world that it wants to cut itself off and try to go back to a past that simply doesn't exist. As Leo Varadkar has said before, we should be trying to build bridges with each other, not walls.

Sadly just as we can be guilty of having the chip on our shoulder so are they guilty of a complete lack of awareness of certain things about Ireland and why the border would be so problematic for us.

Vronsky · 26-11-2017 10:55PM

kowtow wrote: »

Vronsky wrote: »

Isn't it wonderful that it was that his schtick that had betrayed his location, and I dare say, motive?

?

Sorry, forgot to link:

murphaph wrote: »

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

You do say that the UK thinks that Ireland needs access to it to get to the outside world. That's broadly speaking true. It does. That's what I was responding to. I agree that most goods from the Republic don't pass through NI but they definitely do pass through the UK.

This is why we should be looking for a good deal.

As for open Britain and the EU being open. The EU is open to itself primarily. It is highly protectionist in respect to the wider world however.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Can you name a few countries or trade blocs that are less protectionist than the EU?

If the UK cuts Irish trucks off it will face massive retaliation from the EU and will be ruined. The EU will at the same time massively invest in the southern Irish and French ports and the connecting ferries to reconnect Ireland to the continent.

Good evening at 6am on a Saturday morning in the UK? Are you in the UK?

Oh and what about a replacement for EASA by (latest) March 2019?

J Mysterio · 26-11-2017 11:00PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not much of a special relationship when Ireland is basically being told to wait until the UK gets what it wants before it will even state its position on something that could have a significant impact on Ireland.

Well put

J Mysterio · 26-11-2017 11:05PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

No I don't. The Government have been very clear on their stance on the border. You can read the position paper.

If their stance is very clear, why can't you succintly define what this is, rather than referring to some 'position paper'. Intelectually dishonest.

Capt'n Midnight · 26-11-2017 11:06PM

Anthracite wrote: »

Well they might get more talented people from India in a deal with them, but that won't go down well with the millions who voted Brexit because the EU was somehow filling the UK with brown people.

That's one way to spin it.

What's actually happening is
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-immigration-curry-industry-theresa-may-betrayal-a7398196.html

Brexit-backing curry industry says it feels ‘betrayed’ by Theresa May’s immigration clampdown

The number of licensed curry restaurants has declined by 13 per cent, with over 1,000 restaurants closing their doors for good in the last 18 months.
...
Britain’s £4bn curry industry, which campaigned for the UK to leave EU, says it has been betrayed by politicians over immigration, in the wake of the Brexit vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/third-of-curry-houses-could-close-as-tough-immigration-rules-block-chefs-coming-to-uk-a6997831.html

Current immigration rules mean chefs wanting to come to the UK must earn at least £29,570 after deductions for accommodation and meals and cannot work at a restaurant with a takeaway attached.

How many local curry restaurants do you know that don't do takeaway ?

This is on top of tougher rules and higher costs on Indian students in recent years too. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37891734

Cobra Beer founder Lord Bilimoria earlier said restrictions on staying in the UK after their studies meant the number of Indians attending UK universities had halved in the past five years.

...
The number of study visas issued to Indian nationals fell from 68,238 in the year to June 2010 to 11,864 five years later, official UK figures show.

Brexit discussion thread II

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