Will Leo be the shortest serving taoiseach in history?

McMurphy · 24-11-2017 03:20PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I have never voted SF and I would never vote for a SF led by Gerry.

However if Mary Lou was leader, it would certainly be an option, depending on the candidate and policies of course.

I think we're in for a potential merger of FG and FF in the not so distant future with SF as their opposition.

Their constant and recurring seats increase after each election is unmatched anywhere in the Dail.

Meanwhile the usual suspects will tell us about how their about to reach their vote ceiling, or how they fare better in opinion polls than elections will wonder WTF just happened as more key players lose seats to them.

Ask James Reilly as an example.

seamus · 24-11-2017 03:29PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

She is hiding behind the fact that she cant decide legal strategy but she could have picked up the phone to O'Sullivan.

That would be interference - Highly inappropriate for a Minister to ring the Garda Commissioner and tell them how to proceed with a legal matter, or to even imply that they are unhappy about it.

Incredible that the same people complaining about rampant corruption in the force are dragging a TD over hot coals because she didn't engage in corrupt practice.

In any case, my understanding of the letter was not about something that was going to happen, but something that had already happened.

The only questions here are about timings and the farce that occurred around whether it did or didn't exist. One informational email in thousands that the Minister has received, and she couldn't remember it. No biggie.

Nettle Soup · 24-11-2017 03:33PM

seamus wrote: »

That would be interference - Highly inappropriate for a Minister to ring the Garda Commissioner and tell them how to proceed with a legal matter, or to even imply that they are unhappy about it.

Incredible that the same people complaining about rampant corruption in the force are dragging a TD over hot coals because she didn't engage in corrupt practice.

In any case, my understanding of the letter was not about something that was going to happen, but something that had already happened.

The only questions here are about timings and the farce that occurred around whether it did or didn't exist. One informational email in thousands that the Minister has received, and she couldn't remember it. No biggie.

Nope, excuses excuses. Highly Inappropriate to try and stop a planned smear campaign built on known lies? (the accusation had been thrown out by DPP years before!)

What law would she have broken exactly by calling O'Sullivan and asking her why they were using false accusations?

It wasn't just a standard legal matter. It was an inquiry set up to investigate the treatment of a whistleblower by the Gardai themselves. O'Sullivan was praising him in public and fraudulently smearing him behind the scenes.

MadYaker · 24-11-2017 03:34PM

seamus wrote: »

That would be interference - Highly inappropriate for a Minister to ring the Garda Commissioner and tell them how to proceed with a legal matter, or to even imply that they are unhappy about it.

Incredible that the same people complaining about rampant corruption in the force are dragging a TD over hot coals because she didn't engage in corrupt practice.

In any case, my understanding of the letter was not about something that was going to happen, but something that had already happened.

The only questions here are about timings and the farce that occurred around whether it did or didn't exist. One informational email in thousands that the Minister has received, and she couldn't remember it. No biggie.

Considering the contents of the email if she had read it there is no way she could have forgotten about it. Supposedly her memory was still blank as she sat beside Leo in the dail while he stood up and said she knew nothing about it. She either didn't read the email when she recieved it, which is unnacceptable, did read it and somehow forgot, which is not believable and also unnacceptable. Or else she did know about it but kept her mouth shut about it while public expressing support for McCabe, also totally unnacceptable. She has to go.

Nettle Soup · 24-11-2017 03:37PM

Here is the email seamus

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-fitzgerald-whistleblower-email-what-it-said-1.3300342

To do nothing was incompetent and in my opinion complicit. (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing)

One thing is clear, she is not being truthful.

Water John · 24-11-2017 03:37PM

She had legal representation at the Tribunal. She did not need to ring NOR. Just instruct her legal team to inform the Tribunal that she disagreed with the Garda strategy. That is why it's important, as to when she found out.

Jawgap · 24-11-2017 03:41PM

seamus wrote: »

That would be interference - Highly inappropriate for a Minister to ring the Garda Commissioner and tell them how to proceed with a legal matter, or to even imply that they are unhappy about it.

Incredible that the same people complaining about rampant corruption in the force are dragging a TD over hot coals because she didn't engage in corrupt practice.

In any case, my understanding of the letter was not about something that was going to happen, but something that had already happened.

The only questions here are about timings and the farce that occurred around whether it did or didn't exist. One informational email in thousands that the Minister has received, and she couldn't remember it. No biggie.

The email makes it clear that it was sent for information (not action)......that the matters raised are the concern of the Commissioner......that neither the A-G, nor the Minister has a function:

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.....now she's being damned for not doing anything and doubtless she'd be damned if she did anything (given the email makes it clear no action on her part was required or expected).

Saying that, it did lead to the Taoiseach misleading the Dail twice so if there is any accountability she should go - it was her Department.

McMurphy · 24-11-2017 03:42PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

He was excellent alright. He summarised the events very well.

It really is damning.

I am 100% convinced she will resign now.

Anyone a link to the podcast?

McMurphy · 24-11-2017 03:50PM

According to Paschal, Leo might well head to ARAS today.

Check out @oconnellhugh’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/934051089699262464?s=09

joe40 · 24-11-2017 03:50PM

I would love to see a compilation of the times Frances Fitzgerald publicly supported the Garda commissioner since 2015. Even if the argument that she could not legally interfere in the O'Higgins inquiry is true, why did she have to continue to support the new garda commissioner when it was clearly business as usual with regards the Garda attitude to Maurice McCabe. This is definitely a resigning matter, an election could have been avoided. much more difficult for FG to back down now

Nettle Soup · 24-11-2017 03:54PM

joe40 wrote: »

I would love to see a compilation of the times Frances Fitzgerald publicly supported the Garda commissioner since 2015. Even if the argument that she could not legally interfere in the O'Higgins inquiry is true, why did she have to continue to support the new garda commissioner when it was clearly business as usual with regards the Garda attitude to Maurice McCabe. This is definitely a resigning matter, an election could have been avoided. much more difficult for FG to back down now

Only FG are saying that. It was the opinion of the email sender. There were several things Fitzgerald could have done including remembering the email

Hitman3000 · 24-11-2017 03:56PM

Rick Shaw wrote:

According to Paschal, Leo might well head to ARAS today.

Off with him . Hope they remember to wrap up warm when they are canvassing. It's going to get cold. On a plus side they may get to experience some of the discomfort the 'rough sleepers' experience. Might encourage some empathy in them.

Jawgap · 24-11-2017 03:57PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

According to Paschal, Leo might well head to ARAS today.

Check out @oconnellhugh’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/934051089699262464?s=09

Would that be before or after he meets MM.

Hopefully they'll get it sorted this evening so the shinnerbots can have a weekend off.

seamus · 24-11-2017 04:07PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Nope, excuses excuses. Highly Inappropriate to try and stop a planned smear campaign built on known lies? (the accusation had been thrown out by DPP years before!)

"Campaign"? You do understand what this was about, right? Legal arguments that were going to be put before a commission. By solicitors. Solicitors can and will attempt to use every piece of information available to them. It's not malicious, it's how legal arguments work.

What law would she have broken exactly by calling O'Sullivan and asking her why they were using false accusations?

It's interference in the judicial process. Exactly the same as if she rang up the Commissioner and told her to quash some penalty points.

According to Paschal, Leo might well head to ARAS today.

Paschal refused to say that Leo definitely wouldn't. Not really the same thing as saying he might.

I'm afraid you're going to have to suffer at least one more weekend of oppression under the iron fist of FG.

trellheim · 24-11-2017 04:10PM

Amazed people think that this is about McCabe ( I wish it was , its a deserving case ) .

This is nothing but party politics first last and always.

McMurphy · 24-11-2017 04:10PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Would that be before or after he meets MM.

Hopefully they'll get it sorted this evening so the shinnerbots can have a weekend off.

The only way it'll get sorted is if Frances goes, either by Leo or by resigning.

Something tells me if the law and order party lose a second justice minister (as she was at the time) rather than the weekend off, the shinnerbots (whoever they are) will go into overdrive highlighting the farcical governance FG presided over.

In other news, 16 Hindu candle stick makers drowned in the Ganges today.

Jawgap blames Sinn Fein.

Jawgap · 24-11-2017 04:28PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

The only way it'll get sorted is if Frances goes, either by Leo or by resigning.

Something tells me if the law and order party lose a second justice minister (as she was at the time) rather than the weekend off, the shinnerbots (whoever they are) will go into overdrive highlighting the farcical governance FG presided over.

In other news, 16 Hindu candle stick makers drowned in the Ganges today.

Jawgap blames Sinn Fein.

Frances is gone by Monday - we'll have the story about how she reflected over the weekend......spoke to family and colleagues.....before she came to the conclusion that despite having done nothing wrong she has decided to put the country, the party etc ahead of personal ambition.....blah...de blah....de blah.

Leo and MM will doubtless discuss the sequencing later - MM will opt to wait, Leo will 'dig in' on not firing her. But the reality is she's gone, she knows it and now it's just about the theatre of her departure.

_Kaiser_ · 24-11-2017 04:34PM

^^ Hard to argue with that.. I really can't see them going to the doors a few weeks before Christmas, and a poll on RTE R1 this morning had 77% or thereabouts against the idea of an election anyway.

We'll have a new Government by May though I'd say.

Jawgap · 24-11-2017 04:41PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

^^ Hard to argue with that.. I really can't see them going to the doors a few weeks before Christmas, and a poll on RTE R1 this morning had 77% or thereabouts against the idea of an election anyway.

We'll have a new Government by May though I'd say.

Indeed, and they've yet to go back to their constituencies when everyone from voters to the people they expect to shimmy up lampposts and knock on doors will tell them in no uncertain terms what a stupid idea an election is now.....for any number of logistical and political reasons.

Personally, I think there's definitely an increased probability of an election in the Spring, but I think they'll sit down in the New Year, renegotiate the C&S agreement without extending it and we'll end up with an election that coincides with the Europeans in 2019.

......and if I was a senior civil servant in Justice I'd be dusting off the CV over the weekend and seeing what transfers are available

storker · 24-11-2017 04:42PM

Frances Fitzgerald looks ahead to the weekend...

pirates-of-the-caribbean-the-curse-of-the-black-pearl-2003-johnny-depp-keira-knightley-36.jpg

Odhinn · 24-11-2017 04:44PM

seamus wrote: »

That would be interference - Highly inappropriate for a Minister to ring the Garda Commissioner and tell them how to proceed with a legal matter, or to even imply that they are unhappy about it.

..........

So she can't remember the broad thrust of the e-mail, and doesn't think to ask what became of that strategy when the inquiry is over? Not believable.

George Sunsnow · 24-11-2017 05:00PM

Odhinn wrote: »

So she can't remember the broad thrust of the e-mail, and doesn't think to ask what became of that strategy when the inquiry is over? Not believable.

What should she have done with it when the first inquiry was over?
according to McCabe (who this is about right?) the strategy was never even used

Would it not be reasonable like to pay no attention to an email that after the fact wasn't pertinent and to have forgotten it in that context?

This is all a political game ,a dangerous self serving one that could leave Rome (Brexsh1t) burning while politicians are fiddling

Laois_Man · 24-11-2017 05:08PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly, the traitor, was actually excellent just now on Newstalk.

He read out the email and went thru it paragraph by paragraph. It is clear Fitzgerald had significant detail on the fraudulent allegation the Gardai legal team were going to use against McCabe to smear him. And she would have read that the commissioner was endorsing the smear.

And she did nothing. She is hiding behind the fact that she cant decide legal strategy but she could have picked up the phone to O'Sullivan.

The email is worse than I thought.

She has to go. There is no option.

If you read the actual e-mail, and not Stephen Donnely's edited version of it (with him saying bits that the e-mail doesn't actually say), you will see that the (then) minister is being notified in the e-mail that the independent review mechanism HAD been considering whether to recommend that the allegations against McCabe be included in the terms of reference to O'Higgins but then decided that the allegation wouldn't be included and that the Garda Commissioner was being legally advised, with nothing for the minsiter to do here.

It is also worth noting that when the Gardai sent a file to the DPP in 2006 about the allegation made against Sgt McCabe, the GARDAI were recommending that no charges against McCabe should follow. People need to get their facts straight on this!

Although one thing I'll say about the e-mail in question is that it is fairly poorly written

Dyr · 24-11-2017 05:20PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Indeed, and they've yet to go back to their constituencies when everyone from voters to the people they expect to shimmy up lampposts and knock on doors will tell them in no uncertain terms what a stupid idea an election is now....

What? low wage immigrants? You think party members are running up ladders and dropping leaflets? Most of them, could'nt get up a flight of stairs unassisted. Well except for the Sinn Fein lads, they must have led fairly "active" lives

Dyr · 24-11-2017 05:33PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

According to Paschal, Leo might well head to ARAS today.

Check out @oconnellhugh’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/934051089699262464?s=09

Leo's heading up the Áras tonight?

Jawgap · 24-11-2017 06:35PM

Bambi wrote: »

What? low wage immigrants? You think party members are running up ladders and dropping leaflets? Most of them, could'nt get up a flight of stairs unassisted. Well except for the Sinn Fein lads, they must have led fairly "active" lives

No, I think they'll be up the lampposts to put up the posters. Unless those posters just magic themselves up there before each election.

And I'm sure the lads who put up the shinners' posters are quite active in terms of the service they provide.....

IRA men had TD's posters, CS gas, stun gun and balaclava

......five men were arrested with vehicles containing a sledgehammer, balaclava, two-way radio, a stun gun, a CS gas canister, a blue flashing light, a beacon and a fluorescent jacket with the word 'Garda' printed on it.

A large quantity of Mr O Snodaigh's election posters were also found. The five men were subsequently jailed for four years each for membership of the Provisional IRA.

.....standard issue shinner campaigning kit

FrancieBrady · 24-11-2017 06:41PM

Paschal Donoghue the latest TD to lose control of his emotions over this.
Man, they have taken a big hit to their ego/arrogance.

George Sunsnow · 24-11-2017 07:01PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Paschal Donoghue the latest TD to lose control of his emotions over this.
Man, they have taken a big hit to their ego/arrogance.

Do you not think that like ... outside of Sinn Féin supporters and diehard civil war voters that there’s legitimate reason for everyone else to be angry at the lanigans ball who expresses the irrelevant email faux outrage election precipitation more in this?
I do

FrancieBrady · 24-11-2017 07:06PM

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Do you not think that like ... outside of Sinn Féin supporters and diehard civil war voters that there’s legitimate reason for everyone else to be angry at the lanigans ball who expresses the irrelevant email faux outrage election precipitation more in this?
I do

There is a simple solution if FG don't want an election.
One minister is holding the stability of the country to ransom, it could be said.
She messed up whatever way you look at it.

Did someone whinge about the good of the country? FG are flat out doing it.

smurgen · 24-11-2017 07:13PM

Jawgap wrote: »

No, I think they'll be up the lampposts to put up the posters. Unless those posters just magic themselves up there before each election.

And I'm sure the lads who put up the shinners' posters are quite active in terms of the service they provide.....

IRA men had TD's posters, CS gas, stun gun and balaclava

.....standard issue shinner campaigning kit

Ah the next stage of the smear campaign kicking in I see.

Will Leo be the shortest serving taoiseach in history?

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