Will Leo be the shortest serving taoiseach in history?

Rubberchikken · 24-11-2017 12:10PM

It suits them all to remain where they are.
In truth will am election bring us hard working honest politicians. Changing the senior people in the civil service who run this country might be more useful.
These mostly faceless nameless entities who control the strings on elected puppets are the ones who need changing.

Leo and his ilk are a waste of space.

seamus · 24-11-2017 12:12PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

What kind of a nonsense comment is this. The government enacts policy not the opposition . Although of course I do realise spreading the blame is a tactic to take focus off incumbents.

It doesn't really surprise me that you don't understand the concept of coming up with solutions.

If someone is doing something wrong, and you stand there saying, "You're doing that wrong", then you need to be able to back that up with something.

Imagine you were watching a guy doing some drilling and you said, "You're doing that wrong". He asks, "What am I doing wrong, what would you do differently?" and your response is, "That's not for me to say, you're the guy doing the drilling".

You'd be told to piss off and stop wasting his time.

But you're saying that not only should the guy doing the drilling be fired, but that you should be handed the drill to carry on his work.

SF are the masters at being all mouth and no trousers. FF at least come up with policies.

But so far nothing from any of them. Leo stated a few months back that the housing crisis would not be resolved in the lifetime of this Government. And not a single opposition party disagreed with him.

That should tell you everything you need to know.

storker · 24-11-2017 12:13PM

seamus wrote: »

Ah yes, the "it's my job to criticise, not come up with solutions" defence.

Tell me, how can we trust any other parties to get anything done if all they do is complain and not put forward solutions of their own?

True, they might have more credibility if they did, but their job is to point out problems; solutions are the government's job. I don't have to provide have to provide the plumber with instructions when I'm informing him that my tap is leaking.

Anyway, the opposition parties will have to put forward solutions during the election campaign. The problem for the voter is deciding which promises, if any, can be believed...

I suspect that if FG TDs find themselves on the opposition benches after Christmas, it'll be because the electorate wanted to put them out more than they wanted to put someone else in.

Laois_Man · 24-11-2017 12:14PM

To address the OP, if Varadkar is to be the shortest serving Taoisech in history, you have to assume 3 things.
First, that there will be an election now
Second, that FG will not be in power after that election
and third, even if there was an election and they lost it, that FG won't rise to power again while Varadkar is party leader. Garret FitzGerald was only Taoiseach for 9 months before an election that he lost, but he still did 5 years as Taoiseach overall

We always knew there was likely to be an election within one-year of Leo taking office. Don't forget it was the whole reason around the timing of Enda Kenny's departure. But I don't think it will happen yet. FF have some momentum in the last opinion poll from just 2 weeks ago but they were still 3 points behind FG. They will not cause an election to occur until they are at least level with them in an opinion poll.

I don't believe SF want an election yet either. They do not want to be going into an election without a party leader. So it's all showmanship

There will be one around Easter or soon after though

storker · 24-11-2017 12:20PM

seamus wrote: »

If someone is doing something wrong, and you stand there saying, "You're doing that wrong", then you need to be able to back that up with something.

True, but reasoning regarding why the proposed solution is wrong is enough.

Imagine you were watching a guy doing some drilling and you said, "You're doing that wrong". He asks, "What am I doing wrong, what would you do differently?" and your response is, "That's not for me to say, you're the guy doing the drilling".

If I tell his he's about to hit a water main and he responds with "Where should I dig then" the fact that I don't know where he should dig doesn't alter the fact that he's going to hit the water main.

You'd be told to piss off and stop wasting his time.

...and I'd let him go ahead and hit the water main and then tell him I told him so.

But you're saying that not only should the guy doing the drilling be fired, but that you should be handed the drill to carry on his work.

I'd know enough not to dig where there was a water main. That's already an improvement.

Hitman3000 · 24-11-2017 12:20PM

seamus wrote:

It doesn't really surprise me that you don't understand the concept of coming up with solutions.

I understand it alright. I have watched various governments sneer at any solutions offered by the opposition down through the years. I have also watched the present government having to amend rushed legislation when flaws have been pointed out by the opposition.

Hitman3000 · 24-11-2017 12:22PM

Laois_Man wrote:

To address the OP, if Varadkar is to be the shortest serving Taoisech in history, you have to assume 3 things. First, that there will be an election now Second, that FG will not be in power after that election and third, even if there was an election and they lost it, that FG won't rise to power again while Varadkar is party leader. Garret FitzGerald was only Taoiseach for 9 months before an election that he lost, but he still did 5 years as Taoiseach overall

If Leo and Co go into opposition, I can see Coveney challenging for the leadership within 2 years.

Dyr · 24-11-2017 12:24PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Simon Coveney basically confirmed a pre Christmas election is happening earlier on morning Ireland.

He said if FF vote with SF or carry through with their own no confidence motion, the confidence and supply agreement is finished.

FF have officially tabled that motion now. So an election is all but inevitable unless Frances is cut loose.

I look forward to hearing Leo try to normalise the homeless crisis during an election campaign.

They'd all do well to remember what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they decided to launch campaigns in winter

If they give Frances her P45, then Charlie Flanagan will have to follow her in short order. I still reckon that's the obvious path, some sort of timed resignation to allow an election in jan/feb

Should be interesting, FF will have to bring Michael Martin out of whatever bunker he's being hiding in since Leo was anointed and hope that the electorate have now gotten over the whole ruining the country thing

Mary Lou will have to receive a field promotion, there's no way they can leave Gerry in place now that he's not contesting louth and they could well lose a few seats with him and Ferris resigning and few dud TD's in their midst getting the chop from the voters

And Leo, a lot of his own rank and file don't care enough for him to hit the doorsteps in the freezing cold of january, especially at their age

tobsey · 24-11-2017 12:31PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Effectively fired? You're having a laugh. She hung on until her pension pot was maxed.

O'Sullivan resigned in September 2017 with a golden handshake pension.
In October 2017 the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) announced that Nóirín O’Sullivan has been appointed to the newly-created role of Director of Strategic Partnerships for Europe, to begin work later in 2017 and to be based in Ireland, the first time a member of the IACP's staff has been based outside the United States.

The 2 senior Gardai that lied to discredit McCabe in O'Higgins Commission were never brought to account.
Yesterday we found out that transcripts of the O’Higgins Commission supplied to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission for its investigation into the Mullingar meeting incident were missing crucial pages (relating of course to the Garda lies).

McCabe was never happy with the terms of reference on the the Charleton Tribunal and that was ignored by FG in their haste to kick the can down the road.

FG have handled the McCabe case horribly (and I haven't mentioned Tusla).

One question: What message is being sent by the state to any future "whistleblowers"??

I wasn’t talking about O’Sullivan. She wasn’t the commissioner when FG came into government.

McCabe mightn’t have been completely happy with the terms of reference but the inquiry was still set up, and some incredible issues were exposed. Eamon Dunphy did a few podcasts on it in his The Stand series where he had a journalist from Cork in (I don’t know his name) and laid it all out. The Garda in now way came out well in that inquiry and as far as I’m aware McCabe was completely vindicated. There may not have been retribution for those responsible yet, but also it may or be possible to prove crimes against them

Nettle Soup · 24-11-2017 12:37PM

tobsey wrote: »

I wasn’t talking about O’Sullivan. She wasn’t the commissioner when FG came into government.

McCabe mightn’t have been completely happy with the terms of reference but the inquiry was still set up, and some incredible issues were exposed. Eamon Dunphy did a few podcasts on it in his The Stand series where he had a journalist from Cork in (I don’t know his name) and laid it all out. The Garda in now way came out well in that inquiry and as far as I’m aware McCabe was completely vindicated. There may not have been retribution for those responsible yet, but also it may or be possible to prove crimes against them

I am not talking about O'Higgins. I am talking about the ongoing Charleton Inquiry.

On the imminent inquiry, to be headed by Judge Peter Charleton, the McCabes said they are "definitely not agreeable" to their entitlement to the truth being postponed by a "secret investigation behind closed doors" which could take one and a half years.

"We are entitled to the truth today - justice can follow in its wake," they said.

"We wish to make it clear that we are definitely not agreeable to that entitlement being wholly postponed so that another Commission of Inquiry can conduct a secret investigation behind closed doors and make a report, into which we have no input as of right, in nine or eighteen months' time.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/maurice-and-lorraine-mccabe-statement-truth-today--justice-can-follow-776969.html

velo.2010 · 24-11-2017 12:41PM

I think you'll get a pretty weird result if they go to the polls between now and Christmas.

Martin now on RTE Today... he appears to be holding out for Fine Gael to remove Fitzgerald.

Regardless, you can be sure there will be no 'supple of confidence' if the results are reversed in the upcoming election. We could in a period where we have a number of elections within a year.

Nettle Soup · 24-11-2017 12:42PM

velo.2010 wrote: »

We could in a period where we have a number of elections within a year.

Our gombeen politicians are much too lazy and risk averse for that.

MadYaker · 24-11-2017 12:43PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

To address the OP, if Varadkar is to be the shortest serving Taoisech in history, you have to assume 3 things.
First, that there will be an election now
Second, that FG will not be in power after that election
and third, even if there was an election and they lost it, that FG won't rise to power again while Varadkar is party leader. Garret FitzGerald was only Taoiseach for 9 months before an election that he lost, but he still did 5 years as Taoiseach overall

We always knew there was likely to be an election within one-year of Leo taking office. Don't forget it was the whole reason around the timing of Enda Kenny's departure. But I don't think it will happen yet. FF have some momentum in the last opinion poll from just 2 weeks ago but they were still 3 points behind FG. They will not cause an election to occur until they are at least level with them in an opinion poll.

I don't believe SF want an election yet either. They do not want to be going into an election without a party leader. So it's all showmanship

There will be one around Easter or soon after though

Mary Lou is going to be annointed leader of Sinn Fein so they do have a leader. They aren't going to have a leadership election or bother with any of that other democratic nonsense. Maybe they don't want an election right now but I think once Mary Lou has settled in they'll actually be better off with her as the face of the party and Gerry as the real leader behind the scenes since he always performed poorly in leadership debates and in The Dail.

Skylinehead · 24-11-2017 12:46PM

Bambi wrote: »

They'd all do well to remember what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they decided to launch campaigns in winter

Actually they invaded Russia two days apart, the 22nd and 24th of June (and yeah a few years as well!). It's kinda big though so eventually the winter will catch you...

tomwaterford · 24-11-2017 12:46PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Mary Lou has settled in they'll actually be better off with her as the face of the party and Gerry as the real leader behind the scenes since he always performed poorly in leadership debates and in The Dail.

Yous are pushing this conspiracy with a long while and zero evidence to support it?

MadYaker · 24-11-2017 12:49PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Yous are pushing this conspiracy with a long while and zero evidence to support it?

Do you honestly think he'll just walk away after 34 years? He'll be in the background for a few years to come for sure. Id bet any money he'll be out canvassing in the next GE even though he won't be running. He's been the embodiment of SF for decades he can't just pack it in overnight.

Nettle Soup · 24-11-2017 12:51PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Actually they invaded Russia two days apart, the 22nd and 24th of June (and yeah a few years as well!). It's kinda big though so eventually the winter will catch you...

Operation Barbarossa was initially given a start date of 15-May but got postponed for various reasons. The German army may well have taken Moscow if they had started earlier.

tomwaterford · 24-11-2017 12:53PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Do you honestly think he'll just walk away after 34 years? He'll be in the background for a few years to come for sure. Id bet any money he'll be out canvassing in the next GE even though he won't be running. He's been the embodiment of SF for decades he can't just pack it in overnight.

ThIs is along way different to what yous are implying that he'll be running the show/the real leader?

To paraphrase Martin mcguiness...Irish Republicans don't ever retire fully

Odhinn · 24-11-2017 12:58PM

Jawgap wrote: »

..........

Sounds like the Shinners have kneecapped themselves in pushing this just a bit too far

You really are obsessed, tbh.

Laois_Man · 24-11-2017 01:00PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Mary Lou is going to be annointed leader of Sinn Fein so they do have a leader. They aren't going to have a leadership election or bother with any of that other democratic nonsense. Maybe they don't want an election right now but I think once Mary Lou has settled in they'll actually be better off with her as the face of the party and Gerry as the real leader behind the scenes since he always performed poorly in leadership debates and in The Dail.

The point of the thread is about a general election NOW.
Not after Mary Lou becomes SF leader

Jawgap · 24-11-2017 01:00PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Actually they invaded Russia two days apart, the 22nd and 24th of June (and yeah a few years as well!). It's kinda big though so eventually the winter will catch you...

Unless, he's doing a "Patton" - preparing his forces once he hears the opposition, FF, have launched "Nordwind".......waiting for the call before declaring he could attack with three divisions in two days to relieve Mcauliffe Fitzgerald.

Also, I think Washington and Frederick the great demonstrated how effective a surprise winter offensive can be, even against superior forces!

tobsey · 24-11-2017 01:05PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I am not talking about O'Higgins. I am talking about the ongoing Charleton Inquiry.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/maurice-and-lorraine-mccabe-statement-truth-today--justice-can-follow-776969.html

So was I. The Charleton Inquiry isn't being held behind closed doors. All of the statements and transcripts are available on the public record now, even before the report has been completed: http://www.disclosurestribunal.ie/

McCabe as an investigator himself wasn't reasonable asking for the "truth today". From my following of the testomonies given in the inquiry to date McCabe will be completely vindicated. This inquiry was set up under the FG government, under legislation enacted by them. I may have made it seem like I was talking about a closed inquiry, as in O'Higgins, but I did mean the Charleton Inquiry, because everything that has been released and reported on does vindicate McCabe.

_Kaiser_ · 24-11-2017 01:07PM

It's funny watching the FGers try to push this mess on anyone except themselves. I'm in work but has Leo said anything now that FF have declared their intent beyond offering to meet MM?

Fitzgerald wasn't suitable for Justice in the first place.. don't forget she was only given the job (and as a Kenny loyalist) to settle the Gardai/mess in the wake of the Callinan/Shatter debacle and one of the first things she did was appoint a commissioner who, as well as a long time insider herself, sat right beside him (Callinan) when he made his infamous "disgusting" remarks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZn_TdjvF-U

Not really much of a surprise then that nothing changed and O'Sullivan herself was implicated in the scandal and the others that emerged, but she hung on until her pension entitlements were maxxed and then somehow lands a plush job after it?

FG/FF/SF... it doesn't matter. The rot in the Gardai is to the core and only a complete dismantling and restructure as was done with the PSNI/RUC will do at this stage. Any decent Garda should be fully behind such a move as well IMO.

MadYaker · 24-11-2017 01:17PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's funny watching the FGers try to push this mess on anyone except themselves. I'm in work but has Leo said anything now that FF have declared their intent beyond offering to meet MM?

Fitzgerald wasn't suitable for Justice in the first place.. don't forget she was only given the job (and as a Kenny loyalist) to settle the Gardai/mess in the wake of the Callinan/Shatter debacle and one of the first things she did was appoint a commissioner who, as well as a long time insider herself, sat right beside him (Callinan) when he made his infamous "disgusting" remarks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZn_TdjvF-U

Not really much of a surprise then that nothing changed and O'Sullivan herself was implicated in the scandal and the others that emerged, but she hung on until her pension entitlements were maxxed and then somehow lands a plush job after it?

FG/FF/SF... it doesn't matter. The rot in the Gardai is to the core and only a complete dismantling and restructure as was done with the PSNI/RUC will do at this stage. Any decent Garda should be fully behind such a move as well IMO.

Turkeys voting for christmas. A complete dismantling and rebuilding of the Gardai is a monumental task and this government isn't up tp the job imo and I can't think of any other person in Irish politics who would be capable or wiling.

The most that will come of all this will be Frances "resigning" and someone else put in her place and then the show will continue. Nobody wants an election, none of the political parties want it and the elctorate sure as hell don't want it.

Odhinn · 24-11-2017 01:20PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Fitzgerald wasn't suitable for Justice in the first place.. don't forget she was only given the job (and as a Kenny loyalist) to settle the Gardai/mess in the wake of the Callinan/Shatter debacle and one of the first things she did was appoint a commissioner who, as well as a long time insider herself, sat right beside him (Callinan) when he made his infamous "disgusting" remarks:

..not only that, but who was closely associated with callinan before he or she gained the commissioner position.

WoollyRedHat · 24-11-2017 01:29PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's funny watching the FGers try to push this mess on anyone except themselves. I'm in work but has Leo said anything now that FF have declared their intent beyond offering to meet MM?

Fitzgerald wasn't suitable for Justice in the first place.. don't forget she was only given the job (and as a Kenny loyalist) to settle the Gardai/mess in the wake of the Callinan/Shatter debacle and one of the first things she did was appoint a commissioner who, as well as a long time insider herself, sat right beside him (Callinan) when he made his infamous "disgusting" remarks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZn_TdjvF-U

Not really much of a surprise then that nothing changed and O'Sullivan herself was implicated in the scandal and the others that emerged, but she hung on until her pension entitlements were maxxed and then somehow lands a plush job after it?

FG/FF/SF... it doesn't matter. The rot in the Gardai is to the core and only a complete dismantling and restructure as was done with the PSNI/RUC will do at this stage. Any decent Garda should be fully behind such a move as well IMO.

In any functioning society Martin 'Shredder' Callinan would be behind bars for destroying evidence.

Btw list of casualties because of the incompetence/ verving into complicity by numerous governments over McCabe/Whistleblower scandal:

Alan Shatter,
Martin Callinan,
Enda Kenny ( essentially)
Noireen O'Sullivan ( essentially)
Noel Waters ( 'Retired'... secretary general of the Department of Justice)
Frances Fitzgerald? (tick tock)

ETA: Added Noel Waters. I hope Charlie will be joining him soon, imagine willingly allowing your own Taoiseach mislead the country. Imagine if you did that to your own boss!

McMurphy · 24-11-2017 01:30PM

Odhinn wrote: »

You really are obsessed, tbh.

Willie Frazer has zilch on him.

smurgen · 24-11-2017 01:33PM

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Willie Frazer has zilch on him.

The vendetta is like nervous twitch of some sort.can't be helped.

McMurphy · 24-11-2017 01:35PM

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

In any functioning society Martin 'Shredder' Callinan would be behind bars for destroying evidence.

Btw list of casualties because of the incompetence/ verving into complicity by numerous governments over McCabe/Whistleblower scandal:

Alan Shatter,
Martin Callinan,
Enda Kenny ( essentially)
Noireen O'Sullivan ( essentially)
Frances Fitzgerald? (tick tock)

That's some list, I feel like I'm missing somebody though?

Check out @oconnellhugh’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/933670522847727616?s=09

FrancieBrady · 24-11-2017 01:37PM

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

In any functioning society Martin 'Shredder' Callinan would be behind bars for destroying evidence.

Btw list of casualties because of the incompetence/ verving into complicity by numerous governments over McCabe/Whistleblower scandal:

Alan Shatter,
Martin Callinan,
Enda Kenny ( essentially)
Noireen O'Sullivan ( essentially)
Frances Fitzgerald? (tick tock)

That's some list, I feel like I'm missing somebody though?

And all because they won't do their jobs.

Yet another FG TD losing it on SOR this morning so so arrogant. 'How dare anyone question ys"

Will Leo be the shortest serving taoiseach in history?

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