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Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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    #872
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Do we know if that committee is fairly represented and not a hatchet job?

    Well you can look that up yourself. There are anti-choice people sitting on the committee, they have claimed it's biased towards pro-choice yet they haven't put any candidates forward to speak for the 'pro-life' side or any they have put forward have refused to speak.


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    #873
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    ireland has to place equal value on all otherwise it would allow for forms of discrimination to be acceptible which cannot happen. you are not entitled to be able to get an abortion on demand in this country. your choice to get an abortion is respected, you will just have to go to the uk and pay for it.

    What forms of discrimination would it allow for?

    Also I don't need you to educate me on the law, I am well aware that I don't currently have these rights in Ireland. I'm stating my position on why I believe the 8th should be repealed. Repealing the 8th amendment has no impact on your right to not have an abortion, and would permit me to have one if I choose, I could even pay for it privately. So we both will still win
    end of the road wrote:
    plenty. those of us against abortion on demand have been accused of wanting to punish women, accused of wanting them to be locked up in the laundries, accused of lots more. it's shameful.

    People in this thread have said that?
    end of the road wrote:
    it is the moral stance. abortion on demand is not a right, it's a luxury that you can avail of elsewhere and isn't needed in ireland. abortion for extreme circumstances such as where the life of the mother is at threat of being lost is availible, and i have no problem with that because someone's life is genuinely at stake. the 8th was implemented because it was obvious that it wasn't practical to stop people from traveling to seek an abortion.

    This whole paragraph shows me you have no idea what you're talking about, the 8th amendment was introduced to give the rigt to life to the unborn, it was subsequently amended to say women would not be stopped from traveling. To say that it was implemented because of practicalities around traveling shows your ignorrance of the subject.

    I will repeat it is the legal stance not the moral one.
    Laws and morals are not the same thing.

    You think its imoral to have an abortion, I think its imoral to force a woman to remain pregnant agains her wishes. Currently the law is in line with your morals, it may not always be.
    end of the road wrote:
    no i will never support or respect abortion on demand in this country, and as i said, i hope it's implementation will be made very very difficult.

    Why do you hope that?


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    #874
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    A Little Pony wrote:
    At least you are honest, I can respect and fundamentally disagree. I don't think the pro choice side looks that united on this going by this thread. Seems a bit all over the place actually. I don't see how you can argue for on demand being perfectly legal while your friends next to you have time limits at the same time, it makes no sense.


    The pro choice side don't have to have the same opinion on it tho, I can simultaneously support the idea of abortion without restriction, and vote for whatever is in front of me. If unrestricted abortion isn't on the table then I can consider my opinion based on what is. I'm likely to vote in favour of what ever is proposed when it comes to a relaxation of abortion laws here. Which I think will most likely be somewhere in the 0-16 week range.


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    #875
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Also I don't need you to educate me on the law, I am well aware that I don't currently have these rights in Ireland. I'm stating my position on why I believe the 8th should be repealed. Repealing the 8th amendment has no impact on your right to not have an abortion, and would permit me to have one if I choose, I could even pay for it privately. So we both will still win

    it won't be win for me as i will have to pay for abortion on demand, taking money from other parts of the various services that actually need it. so people who are in genuine need would have to lose out because someone wants an abortion on demand.
    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    You think its imoral to have an abortion, I think its imoral to force a woman to remain pregnant agains her wishes. Currently the law is in line with your morals, it may not always be.

    nobody is being forced to remain pregnant against their wishes.
    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Why do you hope that?

    because i believe in the protection of the life of the unborn as much as is practical. anything that over-rules that stance must be either stopped or made difficult.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #876
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    it won't be win for me as i will have to pay for abortion on demand, taking money from other parts of the various services that actually need it. so people who are in genuine need would have to lose out because someone wants an abortion on demand.


    What about privately funded abortion then. Is your main gripe you having to pay for it?


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    #877
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    nobody is being forced to remain pregnant against their wishes.


    So what do they do then? Teenager finds herself pregnant tomorrow, she can't get an abortion, because her life isn't physically at risk? What are her options?
    Mother of 4 currently living on the breadline supporting her existing children, what are her options?

    Going to England is not an option for everyone, therefore those who can not travel have no choice in Ireland to remain pregnant against their wishes


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    #878
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    nobody is being forced to remain pregnant against their wishes.

    YES. THEY. ARE.

    The woman in an abusive relationship who can't leave. The woman in poverty who can't afford it. The refugee that isn't allowed to travel.

    These are some of the women who are forced to remain pregnant.

    Or do you mean that they should go to a back-street abortionist and literally risk their lives?


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    #879
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    What about privately funded abortion then. Is your main gripe you having to pay for it?


    no my main issue is it being in my country. i believe the current law is for the most part sufficient. nothing stopping anyone from having a privately funded abortion on demand in the uk.
    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    So what do they do then? Teenager finds herself pregnant tomorrow, she can't get an abortion, because her life isn't physically at risk? What are her options?
    Mother of 4 currently living on the breadline supporting her existing children, what are her options?

    Going to England is not an option for everyone, therefore those who can not travel have no choice in Ireland to remain pregnant against their wishes

    if they want to go to england they will find a way.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #880
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    YES. THEY. ARE.

    i don't agree.
    kylith wrote: »
    The woman in an abusive relationship who can't leave.

    abortion on demand in ireland won't help her.
    kylith wrote: »
    The woman in poverty who can't afford it.

    she can save up. only way abortion on demand in ireland will help her is if i have to pay for it via my tax.
    kylith wrote: »
    The refugee that isn't allowed to travel.

    she can travel if she gets the right documents.
    kylith wrote: »
    These are some of the women who are forced to remain pregnant.

    they are not forced. they have options. if they want an abortion they will get it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #881
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    How? What are we missing here?


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    #882
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    The ignorance from this post is infuriating.





    Save up how? She may be unemployed. She may have other children to care for, bills to pay.





    Which may take months and may not be possible to obtain at all.





    You're so adamant about protecting the unborn just as long as theyre in Ireland.
    If they go abroad you don't care.


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    #883
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    i don't agree.


    abortion on demand in ireland won't help her.
    Yes it will, she could go to her doctor and get abortion pills and pretend she's had a miscarriage.


    she can save up. only way abortion on demand in ireland will help her is if i have to pay for it via my tax.
    Can't save money you don't have, some people cannot save money because they literally don't have money left over at the end of the week/month or it could take months to save if she can save, by which point it's too late. Your tax is already paying for medical procedures (which an abortion is) so your tax won't go up, so you won't see a difference in your earnings.

    she can travel if she gets the right documents.
    Could take months, possibly years for her to be able to get the right documents. Not a solution.


    they are not forced. they have options. if they want an abortion they will get it.

    They are forced, you cannot keep burying your head in the sand and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting 'la la la la' when others are telling you that they know women who have been forced to remain pregnant because they couldn't travel.


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    #884
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    i don't agree.



    abortion on demand in ireland won't help her.
    Yes, it will. It is easier for a woman to get to her GP for a medical abortion and pretend she miscarried than to travel to the UK


    end of the road wrote: »
    she can save up. only way abortion on demand in ireland will help her is if i have to pay for it via my tax.
    Some people can barely afford to put food on the table, how long do you think it would take someone like that to save thousands of euro for a trip to the UK? Are you in favour of late term abortions?

    end of the road wrote: »
    she can travel if she gets the right documents.
    IF.

    She can apply. But would she, after hearing about a refugee strapped to a bed and force fed because her pregnancy, caused by rape, had made her suicidal?

    end of the road wrote: »
    they are not forced. they have options. if they want an abortion they will get it.

    What options do they have? Hope they will be allowed by the government in time? Take food out of their existing children's mouths to save for a surgical abortion abroad? Hope they can escape their abusive partner and save for it? Or should they just use a knitting needle?


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    #885
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    You're so adamant about protecting the unborn just as long as theyre in Ireland.
    If they go abroad you don't care.

    not true. i can only work within the realities that exist, and the reality is one can't be stopped from traveling abroad.
    January wrote: »
    Yes it will, she could go to her doctor and get abortion pills and pretend she's had a miscarriage.

    abusive partner will likely suspect otherwise so i think it's safe to say it won't help her.
    January wrote: »
    Can't save money you don't have, some people cannot save money because they literally don't have money left over at the end of the week/month or it could take months to save if she can save, by which point it's too late. Your tax is already paying for medical procedures (which an abortion is) so your tax won't go up, so you won't see a difference in your earnings.

    money will have to be taken from more needy causes.
    January wrote: »
    Could take months, possibly years for her to be able to get the right documents. Not a solution.

    that's between her and the relevant authorities.
    January wrote: »
    They are forced, you cannot keep burying your head in the sand and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting 'la la la la' when others are telling you that they know women who have been forced to remain pregnant because they couldn't travel.

    they are not forced. they may believe they are forced or feel forced but they aren't.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #886
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    money will have to be taken from more needy causes.

    So, hang on. If a woman is so poor that she has to take money from 'more needy causes' (such as what? food? rent?) how on earth is she going to afford to look after a baby?

    And if she has to make a choice between homelessness or starvation and an abortion how is that not forcing her to remain pregnant?

    Do you have no empathy at all?


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    #887
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »

    they are not forced. they may believe they are forced or feel forced but they aren't.
    Risk getting beaten into a coma, save money they don't have, apply for documentation they may never get.

    How is that a choice? How is that not forcing them to remain pregnant.

    Please explain how these women are not forced to remain pregnant.


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    #888
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    kylith wrote: »
    So, hang on. If a woman is so poor that she has to take money from 'more needy causes' (such as what? food? rent?) how on earth is she going to afford to look after a baby?

    And if she has to make a choice between homelessness or starvation and an abortion how is that not forcing her to remain pregnant?

    Do you have no empathy at all?

    He's talking about taxes there. Money will be taken from more needy causes to pay for abortions in his view.


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    #889
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    Do you have no empathy at all?

    of course i do. lots of it. i'm probably one of the most empathetic posters on boards.
    but i do have my views though and i make no apologies for them.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #890
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    of course i do. lots of it. i'm probably one of the most empathetic posters on boards.
    but i do have my views though and i make no apologies for them.

    Ha best laugh I've had all day.

    You have shown zero empathy on this thread anyway so your claims don't match what you say.


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    #891
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    January wrote: »
    Ha best laugh I've had all day.

    You have shown zero empathy on this thread anyway so your claims don't match what you say.

    my claims match what i say yes . plenty of posts elsewhere to back it up.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #892
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    my claims match what i say yes . plenty of posts elsewhere to back it up.

    Not on this thread anyway.


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    #893
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    end of the road wrote: »
    those of us against abortion on demand have been accused of wanting to punish women, accused of wanting them to be locked up in the laundries, accused of lots more. it's shameful.

    And I think common ground between both sides of the abortion issue is important. So I would say yes, such accusations are pretty shameful. I would agree with you entirely.

    The "you hate women" or "You want to punish women" angle is not one that should be thrown around lightly.

    There are those that DO deserve that label however. We do occasionally get the "Well she should have kept her legs shut" thinking and accusing such people of taking some level of pleasure in punishing women for their choices and actions is not unfounded.
    end of the road wrote: »
    it is the moral stance. abortion on demand is not a right, it's a luxury that you can avail of elsewhere and isn't needed in ireland.

    Why does it need to be "needed"? I am not sure everyone would agree with you that it is not needed. The people who can not afford to travel to the UK would be among them. But imagine for a minute I agree that it is not "needed". So what?

    MANY Things we have are not "needed". Are cinemas needed? Is alcohol needed? Is XFactor needed? Is yet another version of Energy Drink needed? Is chewing gum needed? Should I go on?

    The question is not about need. The question is about offering people choices that could potentially improve their lives, well being, and more. And questioning whether there is any moral or ethical reason to limit their choices in any area.

    And in the area of abortion, specifically the abortion by choice of the fetus up to week 16 for example, you have not offered a SINGLE argument that it is morally and ethically wrong other than your "it is wrong because it is wrong" circular non-argument approach.


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    #894
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    You believe in pro choice, fine but do you believe in a timeline, should it be illegal after a certain amount of weeks?

    Depends what you mean by illegal. There should be a point somewhere in the process between conception and toddler that killing is murder, and I open to discussion on when that should be. I feel it is somewhere from 24 weeks on as a fetus. But it is an area I admit I am not 100% decided.

    But I do not believe we as a society should be, or need to be, offering abortion purely by choice after 16 weeks. So the question moves a little from what should be illegal, to what we can in good conscience, offer our citizens in our hospitals and clinics.

    16 weeks is a figure based on many inputs though and in fact if I woke up in an Ireland tomorrow with abortion on demand at 12 weeks.... or 20 weeks..... I would not lose an iota of sleep over that result either. I think 12 is generally what most people seeking abortion require.

    But this is abortion PURELY by choice. This does not bring in the nuances of FFA, other medical issues, and so forth. I mean abortion chosen for reasons only known (and only need to be known) to the parents.
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    At least you are honest, I can respect and fundamentally disagree. I don't think the pro choice side looks that united on this going by this thread.

    That will partially because that is not what the next referendum actually likely has us voting on.

    But discussions about that referendum, or discussions about topics like the OP of this thread, are inevitable without entering into a GENERAL discussion on pro choice based abortion.

    But yes there is a RANGE of opinion on pro choice for sure. You are not wrong there. But I think the consensus in that range is much tighter and more numerous than you seem to think.

    The number of users on this site who are pro choice past 20 weeks is small. The number who are pro choice at ANY stage number, to my knowledge so far, just three.

    I suspect from my experiences you will find the VAST majority of pro choice people fall somewhere 4 weeks on either side of the 20 week mark. Which is not really, as you put it, "all over the place".

    But even the people PAST that mark, of which there are none, I think you would find would be massively appeased with 16 weeks. Maybe not 100% happy, but given that the VAST and near total % of abortions by choice happen before 16 weeks..... they would have little to gripe about.

    Hell even 12 weeks would be enough for just about all pro choice people.


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    #895
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    Babies with Down Syndrome are having their lives taken from them just as they are beginning

    No. A fetus with a blue print for building a baby with Down Syndrome are being discarded before it reaches a stage that we would meaningfully call HUMAN life. Until it is a human life, in terms of actual person hood and sentience, then I do not see abortion a "taking it's life" any more than I do when I dig up and eat a carrot.
    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    many are using 'quality of life', or lack thereof (for the parents as well as the person with DS) as a justification for doing so.

    Which is superfluous to requirements as since no one, least of all yourself, has shown anything WRONG with aborting a fetus before 16 weeks..... there is nothing TO justify is there? Demanding justification merely presumes by fiat there is something TO justify. There is not.
    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    Therefore, showing that Sofia, someone with DS, has an excellent quality of life, as do her parents, is an apt response.

    No it is not for two reasons.

    Firstly is that DS is a continuum of conditions, not just one off the assembly line result. So showing ONE person with a good quality of life (and in fact willfully cherry picked for that reason) is not representative of the condition as a whole.

    Secondly as I pointed out in one of the many points you ignored without rebuttal, just because SOME parents are happy with such children..... this does not mean any other given set of parents should feel in any way compelled, least of all emotionally, to do so too.


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    #896
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Why does it need to be "needed"? I am not sure everyone would agree with you that it is not needed. The people who can not afford to travel to the UK would be among them. But imagine for a minute I agree that it is not "needed". So what?

    MANY Things we have are not "needed". Are cinemas needed? Is alcohol needed? Is XFactor needed? Is yet another version of Energy Drink needed? Is chewing gum needed? Should I go on?

    abortion on demand is not comparible to tv shows or drinks or food or gum. abortion on demand is the murder of an unborn life. a tv show is a tv show, drink is drink and food is food. there is no comparison between the taking of an unborn life and a tv show or drink, food or gum.

    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    The question is not about need. The question is about offering people choices that could potentially improve their lives, well being, and more. And questioning whether there is any moral or ethical reason to limit their choices in any area.

    And in the area of abortion, specifically the abortion by choice of the fetus up to week 16 for example, you have not offered a SINGLE argument that it is morally and ethically wrong other than your "it is wrong because it is wrong" circular non-argument approach.

    oh but i have put forward the arguments. as you agree with abortion on demand you would not be willing to accept such arguments, otherwise you could not agree with abortion on demand.
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    No. A fetus with a blue print for building a baby with Down Syndrome are being discarded before it reaches a stage that we would meaningfully call HUMAN life. Until it is a human life, in terms of actual person hood and sentience, then I do not see abortion a "taking it's life" any more than I do when I dig up and eat a carrot.



    Which is superfluous to requirements as since no one, least of all yourself, has shown anything WRONG with aborting a fetus before 16 weeks..... there is nothing TO justify is there? Demanding justification merely presumes by fiat there is something TO justify. There is not.



    No it is not for two reasons.

    Firstly is that DS is a continuum of conditions, not just one off the assembly line result. So showing ONE person with a good quality of life (and in fact willfully cherry picked for that reason) is not representative of the condition as a whole.

    Secondly as I pointed out in one of the many points you ignored without rebuttal, just because SOME parents are happy with such children..... this does not mean any other given set of parents should feel in any way compelled, least of all emotionally, to do so too.

    no . an unborn baby with Down Syndrome is being murdered for having Down Syndrome. your essays full of whataboutery doesn't ultimately change that fact.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #897
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #898
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    i don't. you are making up lies again because you have lost the argument.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #899
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #900
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    i don't. you are making up lies again because you have lost the argument.

    No he's not, everything you have said in this thread has shown that you don't care about women who cannot travel because they either cannot afford it or cannot by virtue of their status as refugee's/asylum seekers in this country.

    He's not lying. You just don't care once the problem can be exported that's it.


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    #901
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    i made plenty of them. but pro-abortionists will never agree because otherwise that would invalidate their non-argument.
    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    nope, never said. i don't agree with abortion on demand, however i have to recognise that people will travel abroad to the uk for one whether i like it or not. i offered facts with basis in reality.
    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    i have offered plenty. but pro-abortionists will never agree because otherwise that would invalidate their non-argument.
    January wrote: »
    No he's not, everything you have said in this thread has shown that you don't care about women who cannot travel because they either cannot afford it or cannot by virtue of their status as refugee's/asylum seekers in this country.

    He's not lying. You just don't care once the problem can be exported that's it.

    yes he is, everything i have said in this thread has shown that i don't agree with abortion on demand and nothing more. he's lieing, he is doing nothing but. that's it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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