Bus Eireann Retain Waterford City Services

devnull · 16-11-2017 03:11PM #1

As expected, Bus Eireann have retained these services.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/nta-announces-preferred-bidder-city-bus-service-waterford/

The National Transport Authority has today announced Bus Éireann as the preferred bidder for the contract relating to the operation of five city bus routes in Waterford City. This followed a competitive process involving five bids from Irish and international companies.

NTA will be formally sending the company a detailed Letter of Intent in the coming weeks.

Anne Graham Chief Executive Officer of the National Transport Authority said: “This is ultimately about improving bus services for people in Waterford City, and making public transport a more attractive option for members of the travelling public in the city.

“A significant benefit is the new fleet of 17 vehicles that we are purchasing for these services. The buses are powered by the latest Euro VI diesel engine, which are much cleaner in use than older diesel engines.

“They are all certified as ‘low emission vehicles’, which means that they generate about 30% less carbon emission than standard diesel buses.

“The vehicles are fitted with various technologies that capture and use energy normally lost through braking, making them very fuel efficient.

“These buses will be on the streets of Waterford in 2018, so today’s announcement is not just good news for the people of Waterford, it is also good news for the environment.”

All the buses will have a wheelchair space and a buggy space, plus a motorised ramp at the entrance door to allow wheelchairs to board easily.

USB chargers will be installed at every seat and WIFI will be available throughout.

The buses will also be equipped with audio “next stop” announcements and a visual display of the name of the next stop.

Anne Graham added: “Public transport demand and activity has picked up in recent years in line with economic and employment growth, and today’s announcement will give more passengers in Waterford City, a more attractive and sustainable public transport option.

“Bus passenger growth in Waterford in recent years has been relatively modest, and we believe that today’s announcement can make a significant difference in that regard.

“Under this arrangement, there will be an immediate overall increase in service level of about 5%. The most significant change in terms of frequency will be seen on Route 604 (Carrickphierish Rd. – The Quay), where the number of daily services is to increase from 15 to 21.

“But during the course of the contract, as more people avail of their local bus service, it would be our intention to further increase frequency and improve service levels across the board.

16-11-2017 04:39PM

How can a company that failed to deliver services for weeks on end mere months ago be awarded the tender?

end of the road · 16-11-2017 04:44PM

correct decisian. i wonder which international companies bid?

(quote)

"The buses are powered by the latest Euro VI diesel engine, which are much cleaner in use than older diesel engines.

“They are all certified as ‘low emission vehicles’, which means that they generate about 30% less carbon emission than standard diesel buses.

“The vehicles are fitted with various technologies that capture and use energy normally lost through braking, making them very fuel efficient.

“These buses will be on the streets of Waterford in 2018, so today’s announcement is not just good news for the people of Waterford, it is also good news for the environment.”

i think miss graham over estimates how much people actually care in relation to these things. if people are to use the service, it will be because it's convenient, not because of the engines the vehicles use.

salonfire wrote: »

How can a company that failed to deliver services for weeks on end mere months ago be awarded the tender?

because strikes will happen whoever operates the service without good negotiations between both parties.

devnull · 16-11-2017 04:45PM

salonfire wrote: »

How can a company that failed to deliver services for weeks on end mere months ago be awarded the tender?

BE were always going to be a shoe in for this contract.

The problem a new operator would face with tendering for this batch of routes is that they were going to have a significant up-front cost of obtaining a new depot and infrastructure, a cost that Bus Eireann does not have to factor in as an incumbent which is a major saving.

When you consider that the fleet is only going to consist of 17 vehicles, whilst a new operator could likely run the service cheaper than Bus Eireann itself, the additional cost of building a depot would probably cancel out any operational savings that could be made.

john boye · 16-11-2017 05:07PM

end of the road wrote: »

correct decisian. i wonder which international companies bid?

How on earth can you say it's the correct decision when you don't even know which companies bid never mind anything about the bids themselves?!

16-11-2017 05:53PM

end of the road wrote: »

because strikes will happen whoever operates the service without good negotiations between both parties.

Wrong. Private bus companies operate all over Ireland and have never gone on strike.

devnull · 16-11-2017 06:07PM

The losing bidders apparently were
- Eirebus
- Matthews
- Go-Ahead
- Transdev

end of the road · 16-11-2017 06:29PM

salonfire wrote: »

Wrong. Private bus companies operate all over Ireland and have never gone on strike.

means nothing, my point is still ultimately accurate. strikes will happen whoever runs the service if there isn't a good working relationship between the staff and management. hence the strikes at bus eireann correctly should have no effect on the awarding of a tender.

devnull · 16-11-2017 06:39PM

More information, which to me is very surprising

Speaking on RTE's Drivetime, Ms Graham said Bus Éireann was not the cheapest operator to tender for the routes, but she said it scored highest in the overall assessment. She said the people of Waterford will be the first to travel in a low carbon emission fleet.

Ms Graham added that the operators had to provide bus depots as part of their tender, but she said this did not mean that Bus Éireann had an advantage and cited the example of Go Ahead winning the tender in Dublin, where Dublin Bus was the incumbent provider with depots in place.

I find it astonishing that Bus Eireann was not the cheapest bid and essentially won this on quality grounds because as an incumbent they would not have to bear some costs that the other four bidders would have to.

It seems that at least one operator who tendered can build a depot, pay all the start-up costs and still do it for cheaper than Bus Eireann who don't have to bear any of those costs.

On the other hand it also shows that unlike many of the claims from the union side, winning a tender is not merely just about costs because if it had been BE would have lost today.

Harry Palmr · 16-11-2017 06:50PM

Presumably Kenneally's were happy not to take on the burden.

magentis · 16-11-2017 06:54PM

devnull wrote: »

More information, which to me is very surprising

I find it astonishing that Bus Eireann was not the cheapest bid and essentially won this on quality grounds because as an incumbent they would not have to bear some costs that the other four bidders would have to.

It seems that at least one operator who tendered can build a depot, pay all the start-up costs and still do it for cheaper than Bus Eireann who don't have to bear any of those costs.

On the other hand it also shows that unlike many of the claims from the union side, winning a tender is not merely just about costs because if it had been BE would have lost today.

Interesting statement.

Can you elaborate further on the "cheapest bid" and"quality grounds".

You are obviously privy to information not in the public domain.

devnull · 16-11-2017 07:03PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Presumably Kenneally's were happy not to take on the burden.

Kenneally's is part of JJ Kavanagh.

Certainly already having a presence in Waterford would be of a benefit on cost grounds, but at the same time we do not know the financial position of the company or how they feel this may impact the three commercial routes which they presently operate within Waterford.

magentis wrote: »

Can you elaborate further on the "cheapest bid" and"quality grounds".

You are obviously privy to information not in the public domain.

My info came from the public domain and RTE.
https://m.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1116/920442-nta-waterford-buses/

The article openly states that the tendering process was divided into 65% for price and 35% for technical and quality grounds and that Bus Eireann were not the cheapest on price.

Jamie2k9 · 16-11-2017 07:40PM

Ms Graham, the people of Waterford would prefer a Sunday service over low emissions buses....

Mutant z · 16-11-2017 07:55PM

Irish bus services should be deregulated like those of the UK its a disgrace how BE are allowed such a monopoly over national bus sevices we need more private companies operating in our towns and cities.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 08:06PM

Mutant z wrote: »

Irish bus services should be deregulated like those of the UK

no they shouldn't. uk bus deregulation was one of the biggest failures in uk history and lead to huge bus usage decline.

Mutant z wrote: »

its a disgrace how BE are allowed such a monopoly over national bus sevices

it's not as bus eireann don't and never had a monopoly

Mutant z wrote: »

we need more private companies operating in our towns and cities.

nothing stopping them or you from operating services as long as the criteria is met.

devnull · 16-11-2017 08:16PM

end of the road wrote: »

no they shouldn't. uk bus deregulation was one of the biggest failures in uk history and lead to huge bus usage decline.

Deregulation has worked in some places, but it hasn't been a universal success that is for sure and I would not support that model being introduced here since it will become a free for all which would not be in the interest of consumers.

16-11-2017 08:23PM

I don’t believe in full deregulation because that will result in private operators cherry-picking routes. We don’t have the population density for it. At least the tendering system facilitates private operators to work routes that would normally be unprofitable for them.

devnull · 16-11-2017 08:36PM

Karsini wrote: »

I don’t believe in full deregulation because that will result in private operators cherry-picking routes.

Fundamentally though on the face of it deregulation appears a good thing - open access for everyone and it breaks up monopolies pretty quick.

However the down-sides of it is that it encourages tactics that can be considered predatory, below cost running, head to head running, bus wars, piggy backing on others investment and that is just naming a few of them and short term thinking is often the name of the game as well.

I'm not saying de-regulation doesn't work, there are some cities where multiple operators live next to each other quite happily and have never really kicked off at each other with the tactics I've talked about above, but unfortunately they wouldn't be in the majority and I can't see it working in Ireland.

16-11-2017 08:42PM

end of the road wrote: »

my point is still ultimately accurate. strikes will happen whoever runs the service if there isn't a good

Wrong again. Private bus companies have never been on strike.

I am not sure what part of my statement you are having difficulty with. To say strikes will happen is not the experience of users of private companies.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 08:47PM

salonfire wrote: »

Wrong again. Private bus companies have never been on strike.

I am not sure what part of my statement you are having difficulty with. To say strikes will happen is not the experience of users of private companies.

users of private companies all over the world have experienced strikes. strikes happen in both the public and private sector, when there isn't a good working relationship between management and the staff.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 16-11-2017 09:53PM

It does raise a few questions.

Dublin bus lost their tender with a cheaper cost than go ahead but they operate a good service

Bus Eireann win their tender with a higher cost and operate a shabbier service

How can go ahead be accepted for one based on performance but not another?

Happy for my colleagues in Waterford and I don't mean this in a bad way but it's a strange situation from the NTA and just seems that they are nervous still about tendering out routes possibly.

Are go ahead just looking at any tender and applying for it also ? Are they losing that much work in the UK to keep afloat ?

Also just proof of a industrial unrest in private companies in public transport
(Sorry it's the daily fail but point stands)
https://www.google.ie/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4898680/amp/Rail-union-announce-TWO-new-train-strikes.html

devnull · 16-11-2017 10:03PM

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Dublin bus lost their tender with a cheaper cost than go ahead but they operate a good service

Bus Eireann win their tender with a higher cost and operate a shabbier service

How can go ahead be accepted for one based on performance but not another?

The tender criteria was
35% Technical and Quality
65% Cost / Price

The technical and quality criteria were probably different for each tender since there would be no set template for every exercise, and it would be based on just performance, there would be a number of topics which certain points are awarded for which would be assessed most likely on supporting documentation and answers to a pre-determined list of requirements and how the operator plans to meet them.

Are go ahead just looking at any tender and applying for it also ? Are they losing that much work in the UK to keep afloat?

They are generally doing pretty well in UK. they are one of the better operators in the UK. I'd generally rate them above Arriva, First and National Express for instance and of course whilst it can vary from area to area, their fleets are generally well looked after and they tend to give their local operations a certain amount of freedom rather than strictly controlled from HQ to a template.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4898680/amp/Rail-union-announce-TWO-new-train-strikes.html

That article is very poor, it talks about bus drivers striking in some parts of the article despite the fact the rest of it says that it's actually the controllers who are going on strike, who actually work for the public body Transport for London.

The DOO debate on trains in the UK is a debate that has hit multiple operators, even though some of those operators such as Greater Anglia already operate a number of DOO services and haven't even indicated they want to replace guards on the existing services but we're talking about buses here rather than trains

end of the road · 16-11-2017 10:16PM

devnull wrote: »

The tender criteria was
35% Technical and Quality
65% Cost / Price

The technical and quality criteria were probably different for each tender since there would be no set template for every exercise, and it would be based on just performance, there would be a number of topics which certain points are awarded for which would be assessed most likely on supporting documentation and answers to a pre-determined list of requirements and how the operator plans to meet them.

They are generally doing pretty well in UK. they are one of the better operators in the UK. I'd generally rate them above Arriva, First and National Express for instance and of course whilst it can vary from area to area, their fleets are generally well looked after and they tend to give their local operations a certain amount of freedom rather than strictly controlled from HQ to a template.

That article is very poor, it talks about bus drivers striking in some parts of the article despite the fact the rest of it says that it's actually the controllers who are going on strike, who actually work for the public body Transport for London.

The DOO debate on trains in the UK is a debate that has hit multiple operators, even though some of those operators such as Greater Anglia already operate a number of DOO services and haven't even indicated they want to replace guards on the existing services but we're talking about buses here rather than trains

the companies may not want doo but the government do hence they forced southern to implement it so the government could get at the drivers.

AlekSmart · 16-11-2017 10:20PM

One item being overlooked in the euphoria,is the actual Contract specifications.

If it follows the NTA DRP example,it will be totally different to the current Direct Award Contract operated by BÉ in Waterford.

Until the NTA issue a fuller FAQ,similar to the one it issued after the Dublin tendering round,the celebrations may be a bit premature.

The divil,will be in the detail.

markodaly · 16-11-2017 10:26PM

devnull wrote: »

More information, which to me is very surprising

I find it astonishing that Bus Eireann was not the cheapest bid and essentially won this on quality grounds because as an incumbent they would not have to bear some costs that the other four bidders would have to.

It seems that at least one operator who tendered can build a depot, pay all the start-up costs and still do it for cheaper than Bus Eireann who don't have to bear any of those costs.

On the other hand it also shows that unlike many of the claims from the union side, winning a tender is not merely just about costs because if it had been BE would have lost today.

That is a strange one alright. If you say that the there was a 65% breakdown for costs, while the other 35% in favour of quality, then how big was the gap? If a company won out on cost, how far behind were they on quality, if over 2/3 of the marks were going for it. If this is the case, then is there a point in tendering out these routes if BE have such a strong grip on exisiting business.

Genuinely a little disappointed, as it would have been a proper shot across the bow for BE, SIPTU and the NRBU that times are changing and they are no longer the big dog with the big bone. It would have focused minds, but as you can see straight away with the reaction from the Unions heads they go off and try and divide people even after this decision.

So, does this mean that the policy of putting routes out to tender is more than window dressing? BE routes from Kildare are the next to be tendered out early next year. Are there plans for more tendering out of routes after this? There was a policy to get 10% of BE routes tendered out, but not sure was that limited to just being offered and not tendered out to a non BE company?

Let us not forget that this is a European directive to open up the transport market. So unless people are advocating an Irexit, this is the way it is going.
I wonder if the loser of this tender can go to Europe over the lack of a contract especially after being the lowest cost bidder. The NTA have to be careful don't go against European competition law.

markodaly · 16-11-2017 10:28PM

You do know that these buses are not owned by BE but are owned by the NTA, they are just given to BE to drive and operate, the same as if say Go Ahead won the contract. Only difference would have been the drivers being contracted to another company, the depot and maintenance staff. Your average consumer would barely notice a difference, instead perhaps in a better overall service.

AMKC · 16-11-2017 10:29PM

Mutant z wrote: »

Irish bus services should be deregulated like those of the UK its a disgrace how BE are allowed such a monopoly over national bus sevices we need more private companies operating in our towns and cities.

I totally disagree with you there. That would be disastrous for small rural towns that Bus Eireann currently serve and for routes that are not profitable or where its not easy to make a profit. Bus Eireann serves these routes and does a good job. Some routes could do maybe with more buses and some with very frequent services it would not hurt if maybe some buses were reduced on them routs to make the other ones better.
If it was left to just private operators it would be terrible.
I think the strike earlier in the year while a big inconvenience has had some positive effects in that buses are starting to run more on time now and the company is getting more efficient.

XPS_Zero · 16-11-2017 10:34PM

The taxpayer still owns the routes, they have not given them away.
This has been the problem - thinking with ideology instead of what will actually work well in practice.

The question is not should services be public but WHAT services should be public. Some things are best owned by the state (education, health) because the cost of paying for them as an individual is prohibitive unless you're v wealthy, and in the case of health private insurance is way more inefficient than single payer public systems. Transport, experience has taught us, always operates best as a hybrid model, CIE is living proof a totally public system can be an inefficient disaster, and Luas is prove the hybrid can work very well.

Nobody would argue , anymore, that sugar companies, phone companies, airlines etc (as opposed to infrastructure) should be owned by the state, and why don't we argue that? because we tried it and it was a disaster, ask former customers of TE what it was like when you said your bill was wrong, the reply was basically "no it's right, f---k off what are you gonna do about it?". The question should be what provides the best quality service for the public while keeping decent working conditions for the employees, CIE has tipped too far towards being a club for the employees benefit instead of a service for the public. They're so far inside their protected bubble they can argue, with a str8 face, that getting a pay rise every year does not count as a pay rise but an "increment".

The sky is not gonna fall in, it's not privatization it's competition, there is a critical difference.

markodaly · 16-11-2017 10:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

the reason they have little public support is as i said before, that much of the public do not want others to be able to do better then them or be able to improve their terms and conditions. they want to drag everyone down to their level.

You have said this numerous times and to be honest casting the entire public like that is offensive, misguided and wrong.

Public support was lost because of the 3 weeks of needless strikes the Unions embarked on, a strike which they ended up with a worse offer then before. Let us try and keep a small bit of balance and politeness in the debate, shall we?

Cookie_Monster · 16-11-2017 10:36PM

These tenders are ridiculous from the get go. The requirements to build / provide a depot is frankly ludicrous when BE already have on in place, be it Waterford or Cork or (DB) in Dublin. NTA should be taking all these depots off individual operators and not duplicating costs and wasting land, time and energy building identical facilities when there is no real need.

The only reason for a new greenfield depot to be built is capacity restraints at a current one.

XPS_Zero · 16-11-2017 10:45PM

markodaly wrote: »

You have said this numerous times and to be honest casting the entire public like that is offensive, misguided and wrong.

Public support was lost because of the 3 weeks of needless strikes the Unions embarked on, a strike which they ended up with a worse offer then before. Let us try and keep a small bit of balance and politeness in the debate, shall we?

I've seen this argument from union folks as well and I always reply "I am one of those people, I have no problem with you doing well and making decent money, I think everyone should be in a union (though different kind of unions than we have now), I don't support you because your T&Cs are unreasonable, not because they're too good but because they're too ridiculous, the sick pay system in BE as an example, I don't want this kind of stuff in my own workplace at all! I'm not jealous of it I think it's f---g ridiculous - if you were a private employer wasting your own money that would be fine but since I'm paying for it that's a different matter"

It's much easier in an argument to dismiss your opponent as a cartoon villain (in this case a jealous idiot) than to carefully consider what they are saying or SHOCK that they might be right and you made a mistake (HERESY these days). Nobody considers they might have the wrong position on something these days and the younger and more social media savvy people are the less they question themselves and the more they see anyone with a different opinion than them as a monster or an idiot. This is a milder example of it. A lot of the people in CIE have never worked in the private sector or not done for many years so they are deep in the bubble and have forgotten or never knew what the real unprotected working world i s like and thus don't know how good they have it...but there are the things they have that are good and I'd like to see every worker have, and some absurd things that should not exist anywhere.

Bus Eireann Retain Waterford City Services

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