Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Contesting a LUAS ticket?

Options
  • 13-11-2017 11:42pm
    #1
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭


    Hi,

    Just wondering has anyone done this successfully? My husband is the most annoyingly honest person you'll ever meet and would never willingly break the law. He takes the LUAS to work and home 5 days a week and has a Leapcard that he has set up to automatically top up through our bank account and he tags on and off the LUAS on his way to work and home every Monday to Friday.

    However a week ago on his way home he was walking to the LUAS with a friend from work who has an annual ticket (and thus does not have to tag on) instead of alone like he normally would and he forgot to tag on. Then an inspector came on and he handed his Leapcard to be checked and realised he had forgotten to tag on. He explained the situation and apologised but the inspector still gave him a ticket. My husband said he thought it was a bit harsh and that if he checked his payment and travel history he could see that he had tagged on and off on this same journey to and from work every Monday-Friday for the previous 11 months without fail. The inspector said he could see that he had credit on the ticket and that if my husband just emailed the relevant address and explained the situation it should be ok - he made it seem like if he appealed it would be cleared.

    However they sent a letter today saying the fine still stands. We're both really annoyed as this seems unduly harsh and if they just checked his payment history they'd see he's telling the truth. It's just such BS as when these ticket inspectors get on the people who are trying not to pay and are swindling the system just walk to the other end of the train and get off at the next stop and don't get caught or the scumbags cause a fuss and just refuse to give any information and walk away. Yet people like my husband comply and explain honestly and get screwed. I think he should appeal as I can't see how a judge could not see how this was an innocent mistake? Any experience with this or has anyone successfully gone to court to appeal a ticket like this? Thanks


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Did he pay his fare on the Luas at the time of travel, yes or no?

    If the answer is no then unfortunately he hasn't any defence here.


  • Options
    #3
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Did he pay his fare on the Luas at the time of travel, yes or no?

    If the answer is no then unfortunately he hasn't any defence here.

    Well seeing as I explained in my post that he forgot, clearly he didn't pay, although he had a Leapcard with credit on it at the time and an 11-month history of always tagging on and off to pay with no missed tags. People can make mistakes and sometimes that can be taken into account which is why I asked the question here. The letter LUAS sent him said that in 72% of cases like my husband's they win in court so that means in 28% the person wins even though they were ticketed so there must be some defence?

    Gardai pull people over for speeding and make decisions not to ticket them and that's without any proof of consistent, law-abiding behaviour like we have in this situation?


  • Options
    #4
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    Well seeing as I explained in my post that he forgot, clearly he didn't pay, although he had a Leapcard with credit on it at the time and an 11-month history of always tagging on and off to pay with no missed tags. People can make mistakes and sometimes that can be taken into account which is why I asked the question here. The letter LUAS sent him said that in 72% of cases like my husband's they win in court so that means in 28% the person wins even though they were ticketed so there must be some defence?

    All his tag on record proves is that he tagged on on those occasions shown.


  • Options
    #5
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    It's your hubbys fault end of. His honesty isn't in question but unfortunately he forgot to tag on and got fined and it's a case of paying for his mistake and moving on.
    You couldn't walk out of a shop with unpaid goods and claim that you have money and paid last week.


  • Options
    #6
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    It's your hubbys fault end of. His honesty isn't in question but unfortunately he forgot to tag on and got fined and it's a case of paying for his mistake and moving on.
    You couldn't walk out of a shop with unpaid goods and claim that you have money and paid last week.

    So how exactly do 28% of people in his situation get their cases thrown out in court? It's obviously not just a straight forward case? :rolleyes:

    And your analogy doesn't relate at all - he isn't actively *taking* anything. A better analogy would be if a person went into the same shop 5 days a week for 11 months and bought an apple each time with a pre-paid card that only purchased apples but one day they accidentally forgot to swipe that card to pay for it...just once. I would surely bet the shop owner might be understanding and realise that was totally out of character?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    He has nothing to lose by appealing.
    The record of him always using the tag system.should stand to him. A fair minded judge could see that a genuine error was made.

    The inspector on the luas may mot have the leeway to accept your husbands reason for not tagging.


  • Options
    #8
    knowledge88888
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭knowledge88888


    I believe ur husband is an honest man. But your wasting ur time and seem to harming yourselfs with unnessary stress. Just pay fine and move on. Fine about 45 euro. Is it really worth stress. It is so annoying watching people time and time again get away with not paying and walking off. Luas inspectors are cowardly if a group of teenagers are on luas they just laugh and get off. But an honest person is fined for simple mistake.


  • Options
    #9
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,216 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    Well seeing as I explained in my post that he forgot, clearly he didn't pay, although he had a Leapcard with credit on it at the time and an 11-month history of always tagging on and off to pay with no missed tags . . .
    When the accusation is that someone broke the law on this occasion, the fact that he didn't break the law on other occasions isn't really relevant. It's the kind of detail that might affect a decision about what sentence to impose, but it has no bearing on guilt or innocence.

    And I entirely accept that your husband is honest. But the offence he is charged with is not that he dishonestly travelled without logging on; just that he travelled without logging on. It's perfectly possible to commit this offence through carelessness or oversight or being a bit distracted; no dishonesty is required. So, again, his honesty does not provide a defence here.

    He was very unlucky to be inspected on the one occasion when he forgot to log on but, once more, "I was unlucky" is not a defence to this charge.

    If he takes it to court and gets a sympathetic judge he might end up with a conditional discharge and no fine. But, as others have pointed out, the costs in time and expenses of going to court at all exceed the amount of the fixed penalty, so in economic terms he's better off if he just pays the fixed penalty. However if he wants the psychological comfort of having his honesty acknowledged then he might choose to go to court anyway.


  • Options
    #10
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    Well seeing as I explained in my post that he forgot, clearly he didn't pay, although he had a Leapcard with credit on it at the time and an 11-month history of always tagging on and off to pay with no missed tags.
    there's an obvious counter-argument to this. just because someone has a history of paying on the luas, is *not* the same as being able to show a history of *always* paying on the luas.
    in theory, i could take 20 luas journeys a week, and pay for 10 consistently, and then point to my history of 10 per week as being proof i'm honest.

    i got done once - was using my ticket as a bookmark, and it obviously fell out. paid the fine and that was that (albeit a different situation to your husband's as it was a paper ticket so no history at all to point to).


  • Options
    #11
    Stoner
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    magicbastarder wrote:
    there's an obvious counter-argument to this. just because someone has a history of paying on the luas, is *not* the same as being able to show a history of *always* paying on the luas. in theory, i could take 20 luas journeys a week, and pay for 10 consistently, and then point to my history of 10 per week as being proof i'm honest.


    Or better again, if you had evidence that you retrospectively paying for a journey that you forgot to pay for at the time.

    That would be better evidence of honesty


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    So how exactly do 28% of people in his situation get their cases thrown out in court? It's obviously not just a straight forward case? :rolleyes:

    I don't know how they got their cases thrown out. I could harbour guesses but here's the more important question; do you know how or why they were thrown out, or what sort of cases they were (They need not all be ticketing cases being tried.) even if this stat is correct atall atall atall?

    Either way, if your OH reckon that it's a viable defence to secure an aquittal in a court of law against then he would want to be very sure of the facts before relying on the "but the man said" defence. And, as Luas will be represented by at least one Solicitor (And sometimes more and even the odd barrister.) it may be prudent for your OH to obtain one as well.

    Personally were it me I'd swallow the lesser of the two evils.


  • Options
    #13
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    So how exactly do 28% of people in his situation get their cases thrown out in court? It's obviously not just a straight forward case? :rolleyes:

    And your analogy doesn't relate at all - he isn't actively *taking* anything. A better analogy would be if a person went into the same shop 5 days a week for 11 months and bought an apple each time with a pre-paid card that only purchased apples but one day they accidentally forgot to swipe that card to pay for it...just once. I would surely bet the shop owner might be understanding and realise that was totally out of character?

    They still would get done for stealing an apple. It's simple, your hubby made the mistake so should pay the consequences instead of getting his wife to go online to look for a way to not pay.

    It always seems to be an honest mistake when caught.


  • Options
    #14
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    He has nothing to lose by appealing.
    The record of him always using the tag system.should stand to him. A fair minded judge could see that a genuine error was made.

    The inspector on the luas may mot have the leeway to accept your husbands reason for not tagging.

    That opens it up to deliberately not tagging on every now and then in the know that they will get away with it.


  • Options
    #15
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Fian


    There is no chance you will succeed in overturning this - put it down to experience.


  • Options
    #16
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    Fian wrote: »
    There is no chance you will succeed in overturning this - put it down to experience.

    Well 28% so success so there is certainly a chance :rolleyes::confused:


  • Options
    #17
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    Thanks everyone for the replies. Lots of good points here. You’re right that it’s a case of weighing up whether it’s worth the time and effort to contest what is just a €45 fee but I think it’s more the principle of it that it’s not the habitual cheats who get done with these fines. They leg it or cause a scene and don’t pay a cent.

    Initially I was more annoyed about this and my husband was of the mind that it was his mistake but he wasn’t that bothered as the inspector made it seem as if they’d overturn it based on him having credit and a consistent paying history every day in that journey. When that didn’t happen he got annoyed. I just wanted to ask on here to see has anyone experience with something similar.

    We’ll weigh up the pros and cons but is it with the hassle to contest it? I’m not sure 😒


  • Options
    #18
    messrs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭messrs


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Just wondering has anyone done this successfully? My husband is the most annoyingly honest person you'll ever meet and would never willingly break the law. He takes the LUAS to work and home 5 days a week and has a Leapcard that he has set up to automatically top up through our bank account and he tags on and off the LUAS on his way to work and home every Monday to Friday.

    However a week ago on his way home he was walking to the LUAS with a friend from work who has an annual ticket (and thus does not have to tag on) instead of alone like he normally would and he forgot to tag on. Then an inspector came on and he handed his Leapcard to be checked and realised he had forgotten to tag on. He explained the situation and apologised but the inspector still gave him a ticket. My husband said he thought it was a bit harsh and that if he checked his payment and travel history he could see that he had tagged on and off on this same journey to and from work every Monday-Friday for the previous 11 months without fail. The inspector said he could see that he had credit on the ticket and that if my husband just emailed the relevant address and explained the situation it should be ok - he made it seem like if he appealed it would be cleared.

    However they sent a letter today saying the fine still stands. We're both really annoyed as this seems unduly harsh and if they just checked his payment history they'd see he's telling the truth. It's just such BS as when these ticket inspectors get on the people who are trying not to pay and are swindling the system just walk to the other end of the train and get off at the next stop and don't get caught or the scumbags cause a fuss and just refuse to give any information and walk away. Yet people like my husband comply and explain honestly and get screwed. I think he should appeal as I can't see how a judge could not see how this was an innocent mistake? Any experience with this or has anyone successfully gone to court to appeal a ticket like this? Thanks


    OP - I get combination of bus/luas, one morning about a year ago i had got off my bus and was crossing over to get my luas when i saw it coming, i wanted to get on it and not wait on the next one, ran to the leap card reader, held my card too it and got on luas, turns out i didnt hold it against the reader properly and i didnt actually tag on - only found out when inspector got on to check, i got a fine, appealed to luas customer services & explained what happened and they cancelled my fine for me. what email add did you appeal to? i can search back through my emails and find the one i used if it helps?


  • Options
    #19
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    They still would get done for stealing an apple. It's simple, your hubby made the mistake so should pay the consequences instead of getting his wife to go online to look for a way to not pay.

    It always seems to be an honest mistake when caught.

    Ha ha, he didn’t ask me to go online to try and help him get out of it! That would involve effort on his part ;-)‚ It’s just what I’m like - I wanted to know other people’s experiences.


  • Options
    #20
    TheShow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,157 ✭✭✭TheShow


    Honestly I can’t see this going in his favour. At the end of the day he didn’t tag on, by honest mistake, but he was on the Luas without paying the valid fare.
    Also, when they charge the fine; they will also charge the fare that he didn’t pay.

    Wife had a similar situation on the train using a leap card, she had tagged on but unbeknownst to her the final destination was outside of the leap card zone by one stop. She didn’t get the train regularly and wasn’t aware of the limitations. So despite having actually paid a fare on the leap card by the initial tagging on at the gate, she was fined 100 + 8 euro I think it was. She appealed 3 or 4 times but no joy.

    On the flip side, I was waiting for a luas at Bus Aras one day when a tram going the other way pulled in and fairly unsavoury character alighted. The ticket inspector asked him for a his ticket to which he replied Fcuk Off, in a fairly menacing voice. And the matter was not perused further. An interesting method of fare evasion, but only recommended if you look like a scary bstard.


  • Options
    #21
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Dub4747 wrote:
    Thanks everyone for the replies. Lots of good points here. You’re right that it’s a case of weighing up whether it’s worth the time and effort to contest what is just a €45 fee but I think it’s more the principle of it that it’s not the habitual cheats who get done with these fines. They leg it or cause a scene and don’t pay a cent.

    Tell your husband to wear a tracksuit traveling on the List and to simply say story bud in a non cultured accent and he won't have to use his leap card at all.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    messrs wrote: »
    OP - I get combination of bus/luas, one morning about a year ago i had got off my bus and was crossing over to get my luas when i saw it coming, i wanted to get on it and not wait on the next one, ran to the leap card reader, held my card too it and got on luas, turns out i didnt hold it against the reader properly and i didnt actually tag on - only found out when inspector got on to check, i got a fine, appealed to luas customer services & explained what happened and they cancelled my fine for me. what email add did you appeal to? i can search back through my emails and find the one i used if it helps?

    Thanks! I’ll check what email address he used! 😊


  • Options
    #23
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,321 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    He has nothing to lose by appealing.
    Losing in court means being convicted.

    How stupid will it look to immigration when asked if he has any convictions and what for?


  • Options
    #24
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    Well 28% so success so there is certainly a chance :rolleyes::confused:
    but you already know he got on without paying; the 28% you mention may have resulted that way because of some grey area with a ticket or equipment malfunction. there's no such issue with your husband, you say he simply got on the tram without tagging on.


  • Options
    #25
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    but you already know he got on without paying; the 28% you mention may have resulted that way because of some grey area with a ticket or equipment malfunction. there's no such issue with your husband, you say he simply got on the tram without tagging on.

    No I don’t think so. The letter from the LUAS says “Our success rate for prosecutions similar to your case in the district courts for 2015 was 72%.”


  • Options
    #26
    yosser hughes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭yosser hughes


    OP, I had the exact same issue as your husband.I genuinely forgot to tag on one morning. I have a personalised Leap card, was able to produce months and months of tag on/off history and pleaded my case.
    It made no difference. They helpfully provided a map to the courthouse should I need it; as they said they would bring me to court.Not so subtle intimidation.
    It's galling when you see so many fare dodgers and your husband is clearly an honest law abiding passenger, however they were not for turning in my case either. Like your husband the inspector gave me the impression that if I appealed my case, I would likely succeed. Not how it turned out.
    I paid it and moved on. Lesson learned.


  • Options
    #27
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    yosser hughes wrote: »
    OP, I had the exact same issue as your husband.I genuinely forgot to tag on one morning. I have a personalised Leap card, was able to produce months and months of tag on/off history and pleaded my case.
    It made no difference. They helpfully provided a map to the courthouse should I need it; as they said they would bring me to court.
    It's galling when you see so many fare dodgers and your husband is clearly an honest law abiding passenger, however they were not for turning in my case either. Like your husband the inspector gave me the impression that if I appealed my case, I would likely succeed. Not how it turned out.
    I paid it and moved on. Lesson learned.

    Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s just so infuriating to see the people who never pay get away with it time after time by being rude, aggressive and just walking away. They make the rest of us pay for their avoidance by not having any leniency no matter what the situation :-(


  • Options
    #28
    Dub4747
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Dub4747


    messrs wrote: »
    OP - I get combination of bus/luas, one morning about a year ago i had got off my bus and was crossing over to get my luas when i saw it coming, i wanted to get on it and not wait on the next one, ran to the leap card reader, held my card too it and got on luas, turns out i didnt hold it against the reader properly and i didnt actually tag on - only found out when inspector got on to check, i got a fine, appealed to luas customer services & explained what happened and they cancelled my fine for me. what email add did you appeal to? i can search back through my emails and find the one i used if it helps?

    My husband says he emailed customer service first and they told him he had to do the appeal through their official online appeal system so that’s what he used? What email did you use if you can find it?


  • Options
    #29
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,216 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    No I don’t think so. The letter from the LUAS says “Our success rate for prosecutions similar to your case in the district courts for 2015 was 72%.”
    How is that in any way inconsistent with what Magicbastarder said?

    The 28% who were acquitted must have had some kind of defence (or in some cases the prosecution may have stuffed up and failed to present necessary evidence to the court).

    On the facts you give us, your husband doesn't appear to have any defence. All the circumstances you point to which attract our sympathy would to to reducing his sentence, not to securing his acquittal.

    He could take this to court in the hope that the prosecution would stuff up - say, the ticket inspector fails to attend to give evidence. That would result in an acquittal. But it would be a gamble, and in any case that's nto the kind of acquittal that would secure the vindication of his honesty that I sense you are looking for.


  • Options
    #30
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    On the facts you give us, your husband doesn't appear to have any defence.
    i think the defence being advanced is 'but he doesn't deserve this'.
    i cannot easily see a judge being lenient on this - whatever about not wanting to set a precedent of allowing a clearly guilty person off; (s)he may be rightfully annoyed about your husband wasting the courts time appealing while admitting guilt.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    messrs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭messrs


    Dub4747 wrote: »
    My husband says he emailed customer service first and they told him he had to do the appeal through their official online appeal system so that’s what he used? What email did you use if you can find it?

    Hi On looking back through my emails i just sent my mail to info@luas.ie & from there they passed it on and gave me a reference number for my case


Advertisement