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Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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Comments

  • #242
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,031 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I wonder who are the parents who get the test done and decide to go ahead with the pregnancy anyway. Seems a bit pointless.


  • #243
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Somedaythefire wrote: »
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .
    Fetuses aren't babies.
    When a woman suffers a miscarriage why is it described as a miscarriage of a baby & not a miscarriage of a fetus ?


  • #244
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I wonder who are the parents who get the test done and decide to go ahead with the pregnancy anyway. Seems a bit pointless.

    No it's not. It gives them time to prepare, come to terms with the diagnosis, research options etc.


  • #245
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Jayop wrote: »
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    "" Down Syndrome isnt some race of people to destroy ""

    Replying to this quote from your post.  people with down syndrome are a minority group , given that they are a minority group what legal protections ( If any )  do you think they should have under the law before birth & after birth ?

    The same as everyone else.
    So you re in favour of laws protecting unborn babies with down syndrome from abortion then ?


  • #246
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    When a woman suffers a miscarriage why is it described as a miscarriage of a baby & not a miscarriage of a fetus ?

    Because when a pregnancy is wanted and an attachment forms calling it a baby makes it seem more real. When the pregnancy is unwanted or we are talking in general terms and not of specific pregnancies then foetus is used.


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  • #247
    screamer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,193 ✭✭✭screamer


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I wonder who are the parents who get the test done and decide to go ahead with the pregnancy anyway. Seems a bit pointless.

    It's not though. People would get it done to know what they are facing. I've heard many a time of parents who went in to have their baby and we're devestated to find out the baby had DS. I know I'd rather be mentally prepared for that than not.


  • #248
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Sesame wrote: »
    Haven't read all the replies but in response sent to the first post

    "I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be."

    This test is called harmony (and there are others) and is already carried out in Ireland. You can pay around €300 and get the done at around 9 weeks gestation. It's just a blood test. ............

    kinda OT but anyway, they've improved the process :

    https://www.nature.com/articles/gim2017188


  • #249
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    When a woman suffers a miscarriage why is it described as a miscarriage of a baby & not a miscarriage of a fetus ?

    If it helps them cope then they are welcome to call it a baby if they want. It's semantics and quite a pointless avenue to go down.
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    So you re in favour of laws protecting unborn babies with down syndrome from abortion then ?

    Laws yes, not the current laws though, but you know that from my previous posts. I'm in favour of abortion on demand, so a fetus without DS could be aborted just like a fetus with DS. Like I said, the same laws for everyone.


  • #250
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

    They're clearly not the same situation. It's a false equivalence. Do you understand the difference between a self aware prisoner and a developing fetus? Them both being genetically unique is not the salient point. The logic is clear:

    Prisoner is sentient = true
    Fetus is sentient = false

    Prisoner suffers = true
    Fetus suffers = false

    Prisoner has a developed nervous system = true
    Fetus " = false

    Logic.
    Baby has a beating heart , an abortion stops a beating heart = abortion ends a life, sure the babies life is at a different stage to that of the prisoner as in the babies life is at an early stage, but once someone intentionally stops a beating heart of a healthy unborn baby the life of the unborn baby is ended .


  • #251
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    end of the road wrote: »
    we aren't deciding anything of the sort. a woman can have an abortion, by going to the uk.
    So. Let's come up with an exhaustive list of reasons why a woman may not be able to travel for an abortion. Let's assume for the sake of argument we're talking about a flight over in the AM and a return flight after dinner time:

    - She cannot afford to
    - She has other children and nobody to care for them
    - She has a long term illness which makes long journeys impossible
    - She had a physical disability which makes long journeys impossible
    - She has a mental disability and is legally incapable of going
    - She is a legal minor who is afraid of telling her parents
    - She is in an abusive relationship and cannot tell her partner
    - She is a ward of the state and cannot get permission to travel
    - She is an illegal immigrant and cannot enter the UK (or leave Ireland)
    - She is a legal immigrant but her visa will not permit travel to the UK


    Anything else? I'm sure there are others.

    Now, except maybe for the legal migrant, how many of those women would be better off with a(nother) child to take care of? Is it right to force both the child and the mother into such a life?


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  • #252
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    When a woman suffers a miscarriage why is it described as a miscarriage of a baby & not a miscarriage of a fetus ?

    Never heard it described as a miscarriage of a baby

    More something like " i had 2 miscarriages"

    It's hardly miscarriage of a nissan micra ffs


  • #253
    Wombatman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,341 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Never heard it described as a miscarriage of a baby

    More something like " i had 2 miscarriages"

    It's hardly miscarriage of a nissan micra ffs

    It's not a Nissan Micra yet. It's just some molten metal and a pile of rubber and plastic.


  • #254
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    When a woman suffers a miscarriage why is it described as a miscarriage of a baby & not a miscarriage of a fetus ?
    By whom?

    Not by any doctors or medical literature, that's for certain.

    In everyday use, it's just "miscarriage". You can't go inventing phrases and pretending that they prove anything.


  • #255
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Wombatman wrote: »
    It's not a Nissan Micra yet. It's just some molten metal and a pile of rubber and plastic.

    That's nothin, have you seen my unmade Ferrari ?

    ims3boH.jpg


  • #256
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What is this long and proud history you speak of?

    We patronize them with the Special Olympics and give them underpaid jobs packing bags in supermarkets
    Have you ever worked in retail or worked in a supermarket ? I have- there were two men in their 20s who had down syndrome who also worked in the same supermarket that I worked in they worked 3 days part time for a few hours in the afternoon till evening hours & still gets their social welfare payments ; they used to pack bags at the checkouts; its more then likely they wouldn,t of being capable to using a till or taking credit card payments if they had problems with maths at school- hence why management likely never put them on the till; what,s wrong in allowing them work to the best of their own abilities ?


  • #257
    snowflaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭snowflaker


    Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »
    A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

    This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

    Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

    In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

    In Denamrk that figure is 98%
    http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

    In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

    I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
    Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

    Fact check:

    https://www.snopes.com/iceland-eliminated-syndrome-abortion/

    those who get this specialised 2nd test tent to abord, but 100% of DS foetuses scanned are not aborted


  • #258
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Grew up knowing a quite a few families that had children with Down Syndrome given that my own sister is Autistic (or "mentally handicapped" as she was referred to at the time) and such children tended to be rounded up and schooled together (St. Michael's House for those lucky enough to get their child placed). My parents did not cope so well and at 16 my sister was put into care, where she still is today in her late 30's. In that community care facility there are many adults with Down Syndrome, some of whom she has grown up with given that they too went to St. Michael's House and one who is even from the town we grew up in.

    Some of those adults with Down Syndrome that I regularly see have very productive and happy lives and a few even hold down jobs in the local community. While I do my best, and try and take my sister for one day a week (since my father no longer can) it is very difficult and becoming increasingly so given that her mobility is in decline.

    I say all this to give a little context as many are saying that the life of someone with Down Syndrome is difficult, for them and their families, which is true, it is, but many adults with autism have lives which can be even more difficult. So, are they next? Should it be okay to extinguish their lives as they are developing in the womb too? Just because their life will be difficult? Some of you point out many potential pitfalls that could lay ahead for an adult with down syndrome, and their families also, and then suggest this as justification for stilling their heartbeats. About as illogical and morally bankrupt as it gets.

    Yes, it's true society needs to do much much more for those with special needs, and of course their families too, to ensure things are not nearly as difficult as they currently are. That is where the focus should be, not on making excuses for ending their lives just as they have begun. We should not have the right to kill someone because of a non-fatal birth defect or a disability (unless the mother's life is at risk). Human beings are not products, to be binned when we spot a defective one. Yet this is the mindset being promoted at an alarming rate these days.


  • #259
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,493 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jayop wrote: »
    I have more* respect for that than the crap that the other lad was spouting that if they want an abortion, fine but go to England.

    At least if you want to ban abortions have the courage of your convictions to want it completely banned and not BS people with that ****e about everyone can get one if they want.


    *more than a very small starting point, still not much.


    there is no point in looking for it to be banned all over the world, that's not going to happen. we can only keep it out of here, we can't stop people going abroad however unless they are breaking the rules such as not having the correct documentation.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #260
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is no point in looking for it to be banned all over the world, that's not going to happen. we can only keep it out of here, we can't stop people going abroad however unless they are breaking the rules such as not having the correct documentation.



    By "it" do you mean increased medical/surgical/patient-safety ?


  • #261
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,938 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    What is your position on parents having to put the rest of their lives on hold to become full time carers for people with downs syndrome?

    Are their lives meaningless? Do their hopes and ambitions have no value? Why does the life of a potential child take precedent over theirs?

    Do you have any sympathy for them whatsoever? And do you have the balls to answer the question?
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    I'm not manipulating anything you said, the fact is a person can have an abortion at 27 weeks in your world because that is what you said by saying abortion should be legal and basically no questions asked.  I am picking you up on your position, you didn't clarify it by including any time limits. 

    So I didn't make anything up, it is in black and white, people can read it for themselves. At least be honest with your positions, if you believe abortion should be legal, that includes non time limits as your post indicates, then that is your position, I can't change that. 

    It also doesn't matter if it is a very small number of people who have abortions after 20 weeks, when you legalize abortion on demand, then anyone who is pregnant can have an abortion for whatever reason, it would be legal in law. What I think about that is irrelevant because the law would dictate they would be allowed to do that and as I follow the rule of law I would have to accept that.

    Lack of balls confirmed.


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  • #262
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,244 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Geuze wrote: »
    Video by person with DS making presentation to US Congress:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQJEoRhkapw

    I could take a video of my cousins child that has ds if you like. She has a host of other issues, can't speak, walk, eat orally (Shes fed through a tube in her stomach) and by all accounts won't see 20. Her mother had to give up work and is her 24/7 carer. Her older brother hasn't had a proper holiday in his life. If she does somehow live to be , say 70 and her parents are dead after a life of full time care, does her brother now have to become a carer in his 70's?


    Much like any other pregnancy, the parents should have the choice. That choice won't have any effect on any aspect of your e life, despite the usual sky is falling nonsense. Sure we are all supposed to be burning in hell fire for letting the gays ruin marriage aren't we?


  • #263
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I wonder who are the parents who get the test done and decide to go ahead with the pregnancy anyway. Seems a bit pointless.

    I used to think so too but it would really help to know. We barely managed looking after a healthy child. We wouldn't have been able to handle a disabled child without preparation if we chose that route.


  • #264
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,220 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    There's some seriously worrying crazy shít being spewed in here.
    Doltanian wrote: »
    The hypocrisy of Left-Wing Liberals they will defend the life of killers and murderers but gladly take away the life of innocents whether they are healthy or otherwise.

    Considering this thread is about terminating seriously ill fetus, wtf does you post have to do with anything?

    The discussion is about abortion, not about the death penalty.
    end of the road wrote: »
    you can have an abortion, hop on the boat to the uk. nobody is stopping you from doing that.

    Nobody should have to travel for this procedure just to appease the illogical morals of some incredibly egocentric people in our society.
    Doltanian wrote: »
    It's being responsible, you know Children cost money and a surprisingly large amount of it also. Both my partner and I will wait until after marriage so our future children will get the best start in life, we own our own home and have zero debts so a family is something we will be considering. The country has enough deadbeat dads and single mothers. Its called being responsible, being a father figure and caring for your partner and children.

    Sex before marriage? You're not a real Christian, sorry to tell you.
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    So you do think an abortion at 20-27 weeks is fine?
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The person thinks abortion at 27 weeks should be legal, nothing strawman about pointing that out.
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    So you agree with abortion of DS babies at 27 weeks, that is fine. At least you are honest and support on demand abortion.

    Nobody said that, you are literally making things up. Using a worst case scenario to back up your entire argument. Late term pregnancies are incredibly rare, as already highlighted, but this is the foundation of your argument. Actually, this seems to be your only argument. Your opinions are very immature.

    Your posting style is so childish. You do this in all threads where you hold an opinion, however wrong it is, that differs from others. You make something up and just repeat, repeat, repeat... like seriously, how can you possibly think this works? It's incredibly shallow.


  • #265
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Baby has a beating heart , an abortion stops a beating heart = abortion ends a life, sure the babies life is at a different stage to that of the prisoner as in the babies life is at an early stage, but once someone intentionally stops a beating heart of a healthy unborn baby the life of the unborn baby is ended .

    So? It seems like you're equivocating on the word life. Do you mean in a biological sense? If yes that has no impact on ethical concerns relative developmental stage. Can you mean life in the metaphysical sense? Like a soul or spirit? In that case no amount of reasoned argument will convince you. Besides a fetus is not a baby. Elderly people have a beating heart are you into life extension?


  • #266
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,447 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    rawn wrote: »
    WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!
    Opposite of godlosing?


  • #267
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,447 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    snowflaker wrote: »
    Fact check:

    https://www.snopes.com/iceland-eliminated-syndrome-abortion/

    those who get this specialised 2nd test tent to abord, but 100% of DS foetuses scanned are not aborted

    Careful now. You don’t want to be bringing facts and such into a conversation around abortion...


  • #268
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,493 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    gctest50 wrote: »
    By "it" do you mean increased medical/surgical/patient-safety ?

    no just the act of killing an unborn child. has no place in this country bar very extreme circumstances such as the mother's life is under threat. something which is facilitated for now. anything outside that, you are able to go to the uk.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #269
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    end of the road wrote: »
    no just the act of killing an unborn child. has no place in this country bar very extreme circumstances such as the mother's life is under threat. something which is facilitated for now. anything outside that, you are able to go to the uk.
    Wombatman wrote: »
    You have to be born and grow a bit to qualify as a child. Could you change the red top headline please.

    .


  • #270
    Oldtree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,109 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    I firmly believe in a woman's choice, and had no issue with it when I was young and it was a possible sinareo I would face.

    I don't think I will be having any more children at my age so it dosn't apply to me now, but it may apply to my daughter in the future.

    This, when I think on it, in a possible future leaves me somewhat conflicted and sad almost grieving, in that it may be my potential grandchild we are talking about, DS or not. But I would fully support my daughters decision 100% without any undue influence.


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  • #271
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    end of the road wrote: »
    we aren't deciding anything of the sort. a woman can have an abortion, by going to the uk.

    Not good enough. It is not accessible for poorer women or msny migrants. The current situation is discriminatory against the most vulnerable.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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