Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

Doltanian · 09-11-2017 07:21PM

kylith wrote: »

So, you won't impregnate your partner if you couldn't afford to travel for an abortion? I thought you were against them apart from FFA?

It's being responsible, you know Children cost money and a surprisingly large amount of it also. Both my partner and I will wait until after marriage so our future children will get the best start in life, we own our own home and have zero debts so a family is something we will be considering. The country has enough deadbeat dads and single mothers. Its called being responsible, being a father figure and caring for your partner and children.

Ulysses Gaze · 09-11-2017 07:23PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

Where do you even start with this?

You don't....

kylith · 09-11-2017 07:24PM

Doltanian wrote: »

It's being responsible, you know Children cost money and a surprisingly large amount of it also. Both my partner and I will wait until after marriage so our future children will get the best start in life, we own our own home and have zero debts so a family is something we will be considering. The country has enough deadbeat dads and single mothers. Its called being responsible, being a father figure and caring for your partner and children.

I'm still confused.

Are you waiting until after you're married to have sex, or have children? If you found out she was pregnant tomorrow, is that what 'the money to travel' is for: to travel for a termination? Are you aware that you don't have to be married to care for you children, or single to be a deadbeat parent?

CerebralCortex · 09-11-2017 07:25PM

manonboard wrote: »

whilst I am pro choice currently and I support people wanting to terminate if they want.
I don't think your logic represents the truth of the matter....

I was just attempting to make the point that a fetus and an adult are not to be considered the same in terms of experience. Fetus isn't thinking about which pension plan to go with etc.

I couldn't agree with you more that there's a lot of nuance and difficult philosophy around person-hood and subjective experience. Again I think it's reasonable to say that an adult and a fetus have a significantly different ontological status.

Blazer · 09-11-2017 07:25PM

It’s all very well saying it’s horrific how these countries are treating ds embryos but have you seen how Ireland treats it’s Down syndrome and austistic children and their parents. Pretty ****in awful I tell you.
I dread what happens to my child if he had to go into state care if something happened to me.
You only have to read the news to see a story every week about the state failing these children.

I pray for the day when we can do the same here and let people make the choice whether to raise a ds child or not. Same for Austism, someday i hope they have a genetic test for it too. We should stop asking parents of ds/austistic children if abortion should be legal but ask future parents if they’re prepared to raise a ds child or go for abortion.

Doltanian · 09-11-2017 07:27PM

kylith wrote: »

I'm still confused.

Are you waiting until after you're married to have sex, or have children? If you found out she was pregnant tomorrow, is that what 'the money to travel' is for?

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

kylith · 09-11-2017 07:29PM

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

And if you had an unplanned pregnancy?

Akrasia · 09-11-2017 07:29PM

Doltanian wrote: »

It's being responsible, you know Children cost money and a surprisingly large amount of it also. Both my partner and I will wait until after marriage so our future children will get the best start in life, we own our own home and have zero debts so a family is something we will be considering. The country has enough deadbeat dads and single mothers. Its called being responsible, being a father figure and caring for your partner and children.

Haha, so you're gonna wait until your mortgage is paid off in your 50s before considering having a baby.

How responsible of you?

CerebralCortex · 09-11-2017 07:29PM

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=define+utopia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=f54EWrDMFIGIarKIt7gJ

SusieBlue · 09-11-2017 07:30PM

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

Jesus Christ. You do realise that almost everyone in the whole wide world will agree that a pregnancy should be planned but sometimes life has a funny way of changing your plans and you end up unexpectedly pregnant?

And before you start on about being smart and using protection, the only guaranteed form of contraception is abstinence. So if you are sleeping with your girlfriend regardless of what method of contraception you are using, you too are at risk of one of those pesky unplanned pregnancies.

eviltwin · 09-11-2017 07:31PM

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

And what about the psychological impact on your partner of having to travel to the UK to have an abortion.

What about the impact of having to smuggle the remains home in secret or having ashes sent to you by a courier?

Why do you think so little of her that you think that kind of treatment is acceptable?

January · 09-11-2017 07:32PM

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

So what happens if your contraception fails?

SusieBlue · 09-11-2017 07:34PM

He has to be trolling. He already said he believes parents with children with Down syndrome shouldn't be allowed put them in care or respite and it should be avoided at all costs.
What the actual f*ck like.

Sofiztikated · 09-11-2017 07:34PM

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

Why is it good enough to have it in the UK, but not here? Totally against abortion, except if we need to get one? You are a walking, talking hypocrite.

I've said it before, I've a condition that usually presents with other conditions, I'm "lucky" enough that it presented on it's own. I've had multiple corrective surgeries, as advances in medicine came. My mother admitted that if other conditions had been present, and abortion had been available, she would have considered it.

And that would have been 100% the correct choice. My being here isn't part of some divine plan, it's luck of the draw, and the universe wouldn't notice if I wasn't.

Jayop · 09-11-2017 07:35PM

January wrote: »

So what happens if your contraception fails?

The rhythm method is very successful.

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-11-2017 07:36PM

Jayop wrote: »

The rhythm method is very successful.

He probably only uses the tip, can't get preggers if you only use the tip

mahamageehad · 09-11-2017 08:12PM

This thread is about as messy as I would have expected! :rolleyes:

c_man wrote: »

Eugenics and abortion hand in hand? Colour me shocked.

This one always annoys me. Eugenics is the wrong term. Eugenics is about amplifying "desirable" traits passed on through generations, whereas terminating a pregnancy with Down Syndrome has no effect on the instance of DS in the next generation. So using this term either implies ignorance of the meaning of the term, or a thinly veiled attempt at emotive language. Although, in a thread godwinned from post 2 I'm not surprised.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

He probably only uses the tip, can't get preggers if you only use the tip

And early in the morning on a Sunday is fine too, sperm like an auld lie in so they're not up and about and active.

January wrote: »

Lifesitenews. Says it all really. The abortion rate in Iceland for pregnancies that have screened positive for DS is not 100%.

http://icelandmag.visir.is/article/fact-check-no-iceland-not-systematically-eradicating-down-syndrome

Thank you for pointing this out. It always irks me to see this false stat bandied around. Yes, there are people with DS in Iceland. Not many, but there aren't many people in Iceland in general. Not everyone avails of the tests, they're not mandatory - about 15-20% don't take the tests. Another 15-20% don't continue with the tests if they get an initial result of DS. Actually, Iceland does *more* for people with Down Syndrome than we do. In Iceland, if you are diagnosed as carrying a baby with DS, the hospitals will support you by helping you meet parents of DS children so you can see what it's like, they have a proper support network.

The other point rarely brought up in relation to DS is that they will grow up. Should a women with DS that doesn't really understand the concept of consent or sex or pregnancy be forced to continue a pregnancy should she get pregnant? Even if she wants to, is she capable of raising a child? These aren't meant to be harsh questions, but these are real scenarios that need to be considered.

Hooks Golf Handicap · 09-11-2017 08:20PM

If Repeal and abortion on demand goes through.
Is there then an obligation on the parents to abort a DS positive foetus.

Surely it would be self indulgent of the parents to keep such a child who will always be a burden on the state and will never contribute to the states coffers.

Jayop · 09-11-2017 08:21PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If Repeal and abortion on demand goes through.
Is there then an obligation on the parents to abort a DS positive foetus.

Surely it would be self indulgent of the parents to keep such a child who will always be a burden on the state and will never contribute to the states coffers.

lol forced abortion.

We're getting the greatest hits here.

mahamageehad · 09-11-2017 08:22PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If Repeal and abortion on demand goes through.
Is there then an obligation on the parents to abort a DS positive foetus.

Surely it would be self indulgent of the parents to keep such a child who will always be a burden on the state and will never contribute to the states coffers.

I see where you're going with that, but obligated is just another way of saying forced. I doubt you'll find anyone who would agree with forced abortions or consider them a good thing, regardless of the circumstances.

Edit - I see Jayo got there before me, great minds etc etc.

splinter65 · 09-11-2017 08:36PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If Repeal and abortion on demand goes through.
Is there then an obligation on the parents to abort a DS positive foetus.

Surely it would be self indulgent of the parents to keep such a child who will always be a burden on the state and will never contribute to the states coffers.

There may be going to be some sort of appeal system whereby you could make a case for yourselves to be allowed to continue with your pregnancy but only I’d imagine if you sign away any entitlement your handicapped child would have to public healthcare , child benefit etc.
If you want to rear a handicapped child when you had an option not to, you can’t expect the taxpayers to foot the bill.

splinter65 · 09-11-2017 08:41PM

mahamageehad wrote: »

I see where you're going with that, but obligated is just another way of saying forced. I doubt you'll find anyone who would agree with forced abortions or consider them a good thing, regardless of the circumstances.

Edit - I see Jayo got there before me, great minds etc etc.

No what I notice a lot is people remarking (Facebook)how self indulgent they regard parents who decide to continue with a pregnancy even though a FFA has been diagnosed.
“Putting the baby through all that pain just so you can feel good about yourself”
If you point out that it’s slightly hypocritical to refer to the fetus as a baby and describe it as feeling pain when you’ve just said it’s non sentient then, obviously your a Nazi.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 09-11-2017 09:12PM

The thread title is so BS.

Taking it as face value I thought a crazy extreme party in some European country wanted children with Down syndrome euthanised, led away for a lethal injection.

When I think of genocide I think of the Yugoslav wars, the Holocaust, Rwanda etc.

....... · 09-11-2017 09:18PM

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....... · 09-11-2017 09:20PM

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mahamageehad · 09-11-2017 09:26PM

splinter65 wrote: »

No what I notice a lot is people remarking (Facebook)how self indulgent they regard parents who decide to continue with a pregnancy even though a FFA has been diagnosed.
“Putting the baby through all that pain just so you can feel good about yourself”
If you point out that it’s slightly hypocritical to refer to the fetus as a baby and describe it as feeling pain when you’ve just said it’s non sentient then, obviously your a Nazi.

Firstly, I haven't seen anyone remarking that, here or on facebook. Maybe that's just your circle? It's an incredibly judgemental attitude, if a woman is pregnant with a baby that won't survive outside the womb, I wouldn't judge her for continuing a pregnancy or aborting it, I'd support her either way. Secondly, that's completely off topic as DS is a spectrum, it's not a FFA or incompatible with life at least in the vast vast majority of cases.

The jury is out on whether a foetus can feel pain. Scientists are basically in agreement that it's not even possible til the 3rd trimester, and even at that there's doubt on the capacity to feel pain. Babies born with a condition that means that they're in constant pain, well that's a different kettle of fish. That's life at all costs, but many seem to think that that's preferable or more "moral".

FutureGuy · 09-11-2017 09:32PM

end of the road wrote: »

you can have an abortion, hop on the boat to the uk. nobody is stopping you from doing that.

What an incredibly ignorant fcuking post. Well done you.

FutureGuy · 09-11-2017 09:40PM

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

Interesting. What an utterly flippant comment. You make it sound like it's an easy trip, one with little or no problems.

I'd strongly encourage you to read the stories of women who have had to travel with/without their partners, particularly after receiving devastating news on an anomaly scan.

Do that and ask yourself the question "would I wish it on myself and my partner"? Because, quite frankly, it's something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 09:42PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If you want an abortion, you should be able to have one. If you don't want to have an abortion, you shouldn't have to have one.
No one should be able to dictate what another adult does with their reproductive organs. They aren't the ones left holding the baby so its no ones business apart from the two people the decision actually affects.
That's what it all boils down to. To believe you have a say in how someone else goes about their life implies a level of superiority I can't even begin to understand.

So you do think an abortion at 20-27 weeks is fine?

circadian · 09-11-2017 09:43PM

Oh! Look! Another strawman setup.

Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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