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Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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  • #122
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Some people in the west, all things being equal, don't want to raise a DS kid just as some people in the east, given the option don't want to raise a female kid.


  • #123
    artanevilla
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »
    A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

    This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

    Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

    In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

    In Denamrk that figure is 98%
    http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

    In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

    I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
    Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

    Speak for yourself.


  • #124
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »

    the uk is a hell of a lot easier to get to via public transport then much of the country. and i don't have to pay for your abortion.

    Strawman argument. You can't honestly be suggesting that in a country this small its more convenient to cross the atlantic than go to the nearest clinic/hospital?

    As for your second point I'm not even going to address it because there has been no talk either way as to whether the government will be covering them. You are jumping the gun, I don't foresee abortions being free of charge across the board regardless.


  • #125
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »
    I am as far from Iona as you could get.

    This thread has gone off track with all the abortion talk, there's another thread for that.
    My thread was for the debate around DS & the likelihood of there being DS children in the future.
    There's no reason to think we won't chose any differently than our European cousins.

    The figures from the OP (dubious figures at best) only show the number of people who have an abortion after taking that test. No-one is forcing them to take the test and the number who do isn't 100% so even if all those who take the test have an abortion there's still a percentage that don't take the test.


  • #126
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    January wrote: »
    Oh and BTW abortions do happen in this country. Up to 5 a day happen in secret at home, using abortion pills procured from the internet. These women live in fear of someone telling the Garda they have done this and being prosecuted.

    that's the choice they make for breaking the law. + they don't know what exactly is in those pills.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    If you want an abortion, you should be able to have one. If you don't want to have an abortion, you shouldn't have to have one.
    No one should be able to dictate what another adult does with their reproductive organs. They aren't the ones left holding the baby so its no ones business apart from the two people the decision actually affects.
    That's what it all boils down to. To believe you have a say in how someone else goes about their life implies a level of superiority I can't even begin to understand.

    you aren't being stopped from having an abortion.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #127
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,430 ✭✭✭circadian


    Some people with DS are reasonably high functioning. I have a cousin who has a job in a small cafe and leads a fairly happy life. However, his parents, in their 70's still have to care for him. I'd dread to think what it would be like if his affliction was more pronounced, like my other cousin. He's effectively an 80kg toddler and his parents spent their life making ends meet and caring for him. Who's going to care for them and him when they are too old?

    In my view it's unfair on both the parents and child if the option for abortion isn't there.

    A home that isn't prepared, stable enough or suitable for caring for someone with a severe, life long disability is unfair for both parties involved.


  • #128
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #129
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    end of the road wrote: »
    no we don't. they are unable to afford to travel so therefore cannot travel. if i can't afford to go on a foreign holiday if i wanted to (not that i ever do anyway) does that mean i'm being stopped from traveling? no it simply means i can't afford to travel so i don't travel.



    that's down to the uk immigration policy. if you don't have the right visa you aren't getting in . why should the uk allow people in illegally just because they want to have an abortion?



    that's because you are breaking the rules. if you don't have th correct visas or documentation the authorities do have the right to stop you from entry or leaving. that's not stopping you from traveling, it's simply stopping you from traveling against the relevant rules and regulations.



    yes because they are a service provider, and have no obligation to allow you to use their service for free. that still isn't stopping you from traveling, you just can't travel using a service provider.



    the uk is a hell of a lot easier to get to via public transport then much of the country. and i don't have to pay for your abortion.

    What are you talking about? So if people are unable to travel to a country for any of the reasons I said then they are still being allowed to travel?? What kind of convoluted crap is that?

    If someone is in Ireland and doesn't have the right to travel to the UK, say a refugee and they can't go back to their own country then they are not being allowed to travel and cannot have an abortion. That's a fact. If someone can't afford the flight or doesn't have a passport then they cannot travel and cannot have an abortion.

    No amount of twisted reasoning will change that.


  • #130
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    no we don't. they are unable to afford to travel so therefore cannot travel. if i can't afford to go on a foreign holiday if i wanted to (not that i ever do anyway) does that mean i'm being stopped from traveling? no it simply means i can't afford to travel so i don't travel.

    Which is exactly what January was saying: People who cannot afford to travel are forced to have children that they don't want. If they can't afford to travel for an abortion do you think they can afford to raise a child? ESPECIALLY one with a pronounced disability?


  • #131
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Couldn't agree more. Its frightening.


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  • #132
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,430 ✭✭✭circadian


    If someone can't afford to travel for an abortion then what hope do they have in being able to financially provide adequate care for a child?


  • #133
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    that's the choice they make for breaking the law. + they don't know what exactly is in those pills.



    you aren't being stopped from having an abortion.

    The pills are safe. They are on the WHO list of essential medicines. They're the same pills used to treat rheumatoid arthritis among other illnesses.

    Also, getting to the UK isn't easier than making the trip to your local maternity hospital, or GP office, which is where the majority of abortions will take place, using the same pills used at home by up to 5 women per day. 92% of abortions take place before the 12th week of pregnancy.

    Again, you're just a huge hypocrite.


  • #134
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Late term or third trimester abortions are extremely rare and of those that occur, virtually all of those are as a result of discovering serious debilitating diseases, fatal fetal abnormalities or a danger posed to the mother.

    The notion that there'll be queues out the door of women looking to murder their child a week before it's due is ouright deceitful bull****.
    People don't just elect to have abortions after taking the pregenancy that far. It's not something people do for the craic, as anyone with a shred of empathy would be able to understand.

    If you believe a foetus is a child and an abortion is murder then there's not much you can argue with that. That's a position based on faith. It's not based on the sapience of the foetus, it's capacity to feel pain or anything that you can debate about. It's a magical idea and you can't use logic to defeat arguments of that nature.

    As such, you can't expect pro-lifers to support any form of abortion for virtually any reason and it would be grossly hypocritical of them to make arbitrary allowances for the baby being a product or rape or the baby having non-fatal diseases (Down Syndrome is probably on the borderline given how much those who have Down Syndrome suffer without it being fatal in itself).

    The only situation that you could expect pro-lifers to give ground on is if there's a fatal foetal abnormality or danger to the mother, because in that circumstance there is no benefit to anyone for the baby being born and prohibiting abortion in those circumstance are not justifyable by anyone's ethics or standards, regardless of faith or lack thereof.

    If you think God is going to judge us harshly for terminating pregnancies where the baby has anencephaly then either you're lying about your faith in a loving and merciful god because those actions preclude that possibility, or God is a scumbag and isn't worth worshipping whether he's real or not.

    If, on the other hand, you are in favour of allowing abortions then the reason why someone is having it performed shouldn't come into it.

    And the idea that all down syndrome people will die out because we won't allow them to be born being some sort of tragedy is ludicrous.
    Think of all the children who aren't born because parents can't take care of any others after having to face the burden of a heavily disabled child.

    How are the phantom children who aren't born currently a lesser loss than the phantom down syndrome children who wouldn't be born if we implemented this test?


  • #135
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    January wrote: »
    The pills are safe. They are on the WHO list of essential medicines. They're the same pills used to treat rheumatoid arthritis among other illnesses.

    Also, getting to the UK isn't easier than making the trip to your local maternity hospital, or GP office, which is where the majority of abortions will take place, using the same pills used at home by up to 5 women per day. 92% of abortions take place before the 12th week of pregnancy.

    Again, you're just a huge hypocrite.

    Its the typical "not in my backyard" mentality.


  • #136
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .


  • #137
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    how so. you may not agree with them which is perfectly fine, but they are not disgusting, horrific, naive or inflammatory.
    kylith wrote: »
    Which is exactly what January was saying: People who cannot afford to travel are forced to have children that they don't want. If they can't afford to travel for an abortion do you think they can afford to raise a child?


    yes as there is a system there to help those who are unable to afford to provide the full cost for taking care of their child.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Couldn't agree more. Its frightening.


    in what way is it "frightening"

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #138
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

    A complete strawman, but no I don't support the death penalty. It's been proven to be counter productive in actually stopping serious crime.


  • #139
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,430 ✭✭✭circadian


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

    That's a solid foundation for a straw man you're building there.


  • #140
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    I suspect it comes down to what your view on abortion I'm pro choice so i would support a woman's decision whatever choice she makes.


  • #141
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Jayop wrote: »
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

    A complete strawman, but no I don't support the death penalty. It's been proven to be counter productive in actually stopping serious crime.
    You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?


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  • #142
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    how so. you may not agree with them which is perfectly fine, but they are not disgusting, horrific, naive or inflammatory.




    yes as there is a system there to help those who are unable to afford to provide the full cost for taking care of their child.




    in what way is it "frightening"

    You're a hypocrite, and naive to boot. Have you calculated the cost of raising a child and compared it against what the state give you to support raising that child? Bet you haven't.


  • #143
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Great article, and brave woman too - it's so tough.
    These pro lifers (anti women-ers) fail to see the difficult lives ahead for everyone involved - they also tend not to give a sh*t once the child is born.

    As George Carlin said...
    Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're ****ed.


  • #144
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

    There is no sentient being waiting to be put to death in the abortion case, no anxiety, no hopes, desires etc. I'm so taken aback at how breathtakingly fallacious such a comparison is I can't think straight. I'd get kicked if told you what I really think of you.


  • #145
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

    Oh wow. I really didn't see that coming. I swear. Really... I didn't. Bolt out of the blue. Man, you got us. I am pro-choice but anti-death penalty. At least I was... Until you... Amazing. Hats off. You really are a master debater.

    MrP


  • #146
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

    Perhaps you would care to explain the false equivalence that you have posted?


  • #147
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .
    Why not just explain now?


  • #148
    theclovenson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2 ✭theclovenson


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Great article, and brave woman too - it's so tough.
    These pro lifers (anti women-ers) fail to see the difficult lives ahead for everyone involved - they also tend not to give a sh*t once the child is born.

    I would love to share this article on my FB page, but a woman I know has a DS son in his 20s and I would not like to upset her. I know she does her best but you can see the fear of the future in her eyes. She would have aborted too.

    I think DS is a primary reason we need abortion on demand in Ireland rather than being used as a weapon to prevent it. It's not eurgenics.


  • #149
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #150
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    theclovenson wrote: »
    I would love to share this article on my FB page, but a woman I know has a DS son in his 20s and I would not like to upset her. I know she does her best but you can see the fear of the future in her eyes. She would have aborted too.

    I think DS is a primary reason we need abortion on demand in Ireland rather than being used as a weapon to prevent it. It's not eurgenics.

    Indeed just a recognition that suffering is suffering. Pro-lifers (probably Chrisitians) seem to be so masochistic and I'm not sure why?


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  • #151
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

    Yes
    MrPudding wrote: »
    Oh wow. I really didn't see that coming. I swear. Really... I didn't. Bolt out of the blue. Man, you got us. I am pro-choice but anti-death penalty. At least I was... Until you... Amazing. Hats off. You really are a master debater.

    MrP

    I was stunned really, and disappointed in myself to fall into such a carefully laid trap.


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