Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

Options
24567…43

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.


  • Options
    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

    Where's your line? Fertilisation?


  • Options
    #34
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,268 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Video by person with DS making presentation to US Congress:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQJEoRhkapw


  • Options
    #35
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

    I think it's more a case of what happens with readily available abortion, rather than a grand plan. People will filter their children on various cases and DS is high up there. Gender is another easy one. Further down the line we can expect more advanced genetic tests to select on (intelligence, physical traits, maybe even sexual orientation and other things like that?). If you don't think that something is fully formed or has rights until it exits a woman's vagina or belly, then why not?


  • Options
    #36
    harr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,484 ✭✭✭harr


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.
    And many many don’t live a perfectly normal life and in fact many of even the high functioning people with DS need a lot more additional supports, very few people with DS will lead totally independent lives.
    And to call parents making the hardest decision of their lives murderers is disgusting..


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!


  • Options
    #38
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

    I don't want a child with DS. I have 4 children, and having a child with DS would have a serious impact on our ability to give those existing children the kind of start in life I want them to have.

    Even if I did not already have children, I would not want to have a child with DS. I don't believe in life at any cost or irrespective of the quality of that life. I would not want to bring a child with DS into the world, i would not want to because I would not intentionally bring a child into the world where I knew that child would suffer. Additionally, and quite selfishly, I would not want to suffer the impact it would have on my life.

    All that said, if someone else wants to bring a child with DS into the world then all power to them. I salute them. It is entirely their choice, and I support that. After all, I am pro-choice.

    MrP


  • Options
    #39
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    c_man wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

    I think it's more a case of what happens with readily available abortion, rather than a grand plan. People will filter their children on various cases and DS is high up there. Gender is another easy one. Further down the line we can expect more advanced genetic tests to select on (intelligence, physical traits, maybe even sexual orientation and other things like that?). If you don't think that something is fully formed or has rights until it exits a woman's vagina or belly, then why not?

    That is the fundamental disagreement, I don't believe in that. 
    harr wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.
    And many many don’t live a perfectly normal life and in fact many of even the high functioning people with DS need a lot more additional supports, very few people with DS will lead totally  independent  lives.
    And to call parents making the hardest decision  of their lives  murderers is disgusting..
    You don't need to live an "independent life" to live a good life for as long as possible and to get the enjoyments out of life. We are here once and some don't want to give down syndrome people any chance of experiencing life, even with it's negatives.  What about two down syndrome people meeting each other, getting married, having children?


  • Options
    #40
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    rawn wrote: »
    WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!

    Here you go.

    MrP


  • Options
    #41
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,352 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    rawn wrote: »
    WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,976 ✭✭✭optogirl


    rawn wrote: »
    WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


  • Options
    #43
    Doltanian
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Doltanian


    The hypocrisy of Left-Wing Liberals they will defend the life of killers and murderers but gladly take away the life of innocents whether they are healthy or otherwise.


  • Options
    #44
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    That is the fundamental disagreement, I don't believe in that.

    Neither do I.


  • Options
    #45
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

    Horrifying comment. You have never lived life with a relative with a disability to be saying things like that.
    How dare you dictate what one parent can cope with over another.

    As always people are concerned about people aborting babies with these conditions but don't give a monkeys about them when they're born.
    Instead of judging families who have decided to terminate a pregnancy why don't you volunteer/campaign for your local Downs Syndrome charity?
    After all, they're just like everyone else and many live a perfectly normal life. Shouldn't be a bother to you.

    I say this as someone who has a sibling with a severe disability that requires round the clock supervision even as a near adult. A man who will never know independence. We love him so much but he's very hard work.

    My mam is with him 24/7 as his carer and she's amazing. Never complains. She has never uttered a word about regrets but jesus I wouldn't blame her for not choosing a life like this.


  • Options
    #46
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    c_man wrote: »
    That's bolloX tbh. 35 years ago we had a care home in our estate, with plenty of DS people in it and it was well established by then. It was nice having them live in, and be part of the local community. The nurses/carers there were something else.
    He might be a bit out on his timeline, but I'm not that old and I can remember children (and adults) with DS being hidden away in locked rooms and much much worse.

    And I guarantee you this, a lot of those who treated people with DS like cattle would be the same ones upon arms about aborting.


  • Options
    #47
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

    Ah. Have to say I'm a little disappointed, I had hoped it was another "I'm eating my breakfast, Kate" type scenario.


  • Options
    #48
    harr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,484 ✭✭✭harr


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    He might be a bit out on his timeline, but I'm not that old and I can remember children (and adults) with DS being hidden away in locked rooms and much much worse.
    A town not far from me had a very large care home and it was very common practice for parents to leave disabled here and never see them again and not all children left here were seriously disabled children ..a lot the residents are in their 40,s and 50,s now so the practice of giving up children happened well into the 80,s .
    Parents were actively encouraged by nuns ( who ran the Home) and priests to give up the children...the same people who start preaching when abortion is mentioned..


  • Options
    #49
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

    I dont think anyone actually cares if there are people with DS in the world. The people who care are the ones who are forced to look after them for the rest of their lives.

    If someone has a DS child they have 2 options.
    1. Abandon the child to social care.
    2. Spend the rest of their lives caring for the child who will likely outlive them and have to go into care anyway.

    Its normal for parents to care for their children for 18 years at which point you expect your child to be mostly self sufficient and be totally self sufficient in their early 20's.
    Nobody wants to abandon their child but given the option a lot would like to avoid having to look after their special needs child for 60 years and a child whose mental age rarely exceeds 10 years old.


  • Options
    #50
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    As always people are concerned about people aborting babies with these conditions but don't give a monkeys about them when they're born.
    I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that being born is always better than not being born. I have to wonder what kind of narrow life experience someone might have to actually believe this.

    It's as if they believe that once you're out of that birth canal it's all puppies and roses and fun and games.

    The harsh truth is that while our human condition brings us to retroactively "cherish" life experiences, even the hard ones, that doesn't mean everyone will or should cherish those same experiences. And that they shouldn't be forced to endure them.


  • Options
    #51
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    The Me generation just took it one level higher, and feigns a 'best for all concerned' line of patter in doing so.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    I would never judge anyone for aborting a DS child. It's a heart breaking decision with life changing consequences.

    Can you really blame people for not wanting the life portrayed in the article posted earlier?

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Options
    #53
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

    Horrifying comment. You have never lived life with a relative with a disability to be saying things like that.
    How dare you dictate what one parent can cope with over another.

    As always people are concerned about people aborting babies with these conditions but don't give a monkeys about them when they're born.
    Instead of judging families who have decided to terminate a pregnancy why don't you volunteer/campaign for your local Downs Syndrome charity?
    After all, they're just like everyone else and many live a perfectly normal life. Shouldn't be a bother to you.

    I say this as someone who has a sibling with a severe disability that requires round the clock supervision even as a near adult. A man who will never know independence. We love him so much but he's very hard work.

    My mam is with him 24/7 as his carer and she's amazing. Never complains. She has never uttered a word about regrets but jesus I wouldn't blame her for not choosing a life like this.

    How do you know that? To defend the right to life for down syndrome people is not something I am ashamed of, far from it.


  • Options
    #54
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,328 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    You don't need to live an "independent life" to live a good life for as long as possible and to get the enjoyments out of life. We are here once and some don't want to give down syndrome people any chance of experiencing life, even with it's negatives.  What about two down syndrome people meeting each other, getting married, having children?

    What about the people who need to give up their own lives to facilitate these high ideals?

    Does your sympathy not extend to those who through no fault of their own have to shoulder that burden?


  • Options
    #55
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    They do it to female foetuses in China and India, why not DS foetuses in Europe?


  • Options
    #56
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    How do you know that? To defend the right to life for down syndrome people is not something I am ashamed of, far from it.

    Because I can't imagine anyone who has walked the walk ever being so insensitive and judgmental towards a fellow parent/relative who is going through the same.

    It is your right to defend of course, but you should be a bit more compassionate and realise not everyone is cut out for raising a disabled child. There is no shame in it, despite your efforts using emotive language. Suggesting its murder is just disgusting.

    I also note you completely disregarded the rest of my post and just focused on the first line


  • Options
    #57
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    How do you know that? To defend the right to life for down syndrome people is not something I am ashamed of, far from it.

    Because I can't imagine anyone who has walked the walk ever being so insensitive and judgmental towards a fellow parent/relative who is going through the same.

    It is your right to defend of course, but you should be a bit more compassionate and realise not everyone is cut out for raising a disabled child. There is no shame in it, despite your efforts using emotive language. Suggesting its murder is just disgusting.

    I also note you completely disregarded the rest of my post and just focused on the first line
    I stick by everything I said, I disagree with it ethically and morally. If you want to do it and it's legal, crack away, I can't agree with it and unlikely ever will.


  • Options
    #58
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Because I can't imagine anyone who has walked the walk ever being so insensitive and judgmental towards a fellow parent/relative who is going through the same.

    It is your right to defend of course, but you should be a bit more compassionate and realise not everyone is cut out for raising a disabled child. There is no shame in it, despite your efforts using emotive language. Suggesting its murder is just disgusting.

    I also note you completely disregarded the rest of my post and just focused on the first line

    She/He is not interested in discussing it with you. They just want to show how morally superior they are by defending the life of an innocent, unborn not even fully formed fetus.

    You can't debate with someone so high up on their horse.


  • Options
    #59
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    topper75 wrote: »
    The Me generation just took it one level higher, and feigns a 'best for all concerned' line of patter in doing so.

    If by some misfortune you knew that from tomorrow you had to live the rest of your life being completely and utterly dependent on the 24/7 care of your aging parents, how would you feel today?


  • Options
    #60
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Doltanian wrote: »
    The hypocrisy of Left-Wing Liberals they will defend the life of killers and murderers but gladly take away the life of innocents whether they are healthy or otherwise.


    plenty of "left wing liberals" disagree with baby murder.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    I stick by everything I said, I disagree with it ethically and morally. If you want to do it and it's legal, crack away, I can't agree with it and unlikely ever will.

    Great, that's your choice. If someone else was to choose not to give birth to a disabled child, they can crack away, as you said.
    Its neither here nor there whether you agree or not because its none of your business.
    I'm also pro choice so at least we can agree on something :):):)


Advertisement