Car owners & learner drivers

robarmstrong · 08-11-2017 04:31PM

Graham wrote: »

None of that sounds like justification for allowing unqualified drivers on the road.

As for the vendetta comment, I can only assume you hadn't thought that through fully.

No I've thought that bit through quite fully, as a previous poster said it is obviously terrible what the man has suffered, but would his stance be the same if it was an OAP with a full licence they probably never sat a test for? I believe in a better educational and training system where you don't have to wait several weeks/months to sit your test and if you fail that test you get to drive off, rather than bringing in new laws to enforce and punish, educate and training would generally be the better option.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Many people wouldn't have the opportunity for motorway driving under instruction, or for a test centre. If it can't be done for all, there's no point doing it for some.

But more so to the point, what's different about driving on a motorway?

Tell me the difference between driving on a non-motorway road where speed limits are below those set for a motorway. I can think of several - more lanes and more chances to incorrectly use said lanes (lanes on our motorways are misused as a whole but that's a different story), a lot more congestion on motorway roads which could potentially lead to more incidents, but I'll await your description of differences between driving on a motorway and driving on normal roads. There's obvious differences so don't play the troll card.

Dravokivich · 08-11-2017 04:31PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Unless there's somewhere that says who was, the stat doesn't really hold much relevance. To say an accident would not have happened if the unaccompanied driver wasn't there, does not negate the potential wreckless driving of someone else who was.

robarmstrong wrote: »

Tell me the difference between driving on a non-motorway road where speed limits are below those set for a motorway. I can think of several - more lanes and more chances to incorrectly use said lanes (lanes on our motorways are misused as a whole but that's a different story), a lot more congestion on motorway roads which could potentially lead to more incidents, but I'll await your description of differences between driving on a motorway and driving on normal roads. There's obvious differences so don't play the troll card.

I'm not trolling. Never have. I'm just asking you what you're on about. If people start thinking of different roads needed to be treated differently, they can become less focused on roads they think don't require it. They' can also find other roads more intimidating than they need to. I see no reason for this point on motorways.

One of the main parts of the driving test, is road position. "Keep Left." This doesn't change on a motorway and lane misuse is not a phenomenon unique to motorways. As a permit holder you can drive on dual carraigeways, the highest I experienced was with speeds up to 100 km/h, 120 isn't much of a stretch for a drivers perception and one can take reasonable time to get upto that speed. Congestion occurs on all road types. What's so special about it on motorways? Would you be not wanting Learners to use the city, because there's a higher chance of accidents involving pedestrians and cyclists?

There are also theory questions prior to the practical assessment and they make a point to ask about things relevant to motorways. How to identify you are entering one, exciting one and the requirements to enter one.

Cantona's Collars · 08-11-2017 04:32PM

When I was a learner,the only time I put L plates on my car was the day of the test. At the time I was driving everything from cars to vans and towing trailers. Different times.

CeilingFly · 08-11-2017 04:37PM

DarTipp wrote: »

what about say someone who has a provisional licence for 2-3 years are they have to be accompanied by a fully licenced driver at all times

If someone cannot pass a test within 2-3 years they should not ever be allowed in a car.

Year ago, people got a provisional licence almost as a form of ID - these days there's an age card.

I'd like to see that the 12 lessons become null and void if you need to get a second provisional licence.

Maybe then those who can't be arsed will take a driving licence seriously

robarmstrong · 08-11-2017 04:40PM

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

When I was a learner,the only time I put L plates on my car was the day of the test. At the time I was driving everything from cars to vans and towing trailers. Different times.

Did you drive safely? As long as you did, I see no problem with that tbh. Like you said, different times.

People need to stop learner-bashing and take a broader a look at our driving as a whole. We can all spout anecdotes about how some full licence drivers are terrible, and some learners are terrible. What I don't agree nor understand is the logic behind it all.

Here's an example -

Person A is a provisional licence driver, they've been driving for 3 years and have covered 30,000 miles (they've travelled on a motorway - obviously illegal but the majority of learners have done this), and they have not been in any form of accident or collision.

Person B passed their theory test, did 12 lessons and passed their full test but didn't do any other driving. They've never driven on a motorway nor have they really experienced the driving culture of Ireland.

One is a hell of a lot more experienced than the other - why does one get bashed so heavily?

Graham · 08-11-2017 04:44PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

No I've thought that bit through quite fully, as a previous poster said it is obviously terrible what the man has suffered, but would his stance be the same if it was an OAP with a full licence they probably never sat a test for? I believe in a better educational and training system where you don't have to wait several weeks/months to sit your test and if you fail that test you get to drive off, rather than bringing in new laws to enforce and punish, educate and training would generally be the better option.

And again, pointing over there and saying 'but look at that' doesn't change anything.

robarmstrong · 08-11-2017 04:47PM

Graham wrote: »

And again, pointing over there and saying 'but look at that' doesn't change anything.

And again, contributing nothing but drivel instead of having an intelligent and reasonable discussion doesn't change anything.

Our driving system is heavily flawed and it does need to be changed. Enough people pointing at something tends to gather attention and attention would eventually lead to awareness/change.

deisedude · 08-11-2017 04:52PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Right I'm probably being really stupid here but those stats aren't really making sense to me. 1141 drivers were involved in crashes, 99 were learners and only 12 were unaccompanied? so what about the other 1042? What licence did they hold?

Also - 2442 serious collisions and 194 included unaccompanied learner drivers? what about the rest of those serious collisions, what did they involve?

I've my full licence but it's a bit mad how this has turned into a witch hunt for learner drivers, they have to fork out multiple thousands for insurance, then fork out a couple of hundred quid just to have lessons (which have to be completed).

Instead of one man holding a vendetta against learner drivers over an absolute tragic event, why isn't more thought given to restructuring the driving educational/testing system in Ireland overall? Our driving system and structure does not make sense as a whole, there's no driving on a motorway, so you'll get people who will pass their test and have no idea how to drive on a motorway? Pointless.

That's my father and my family you are talking about. Maybe use your brain the next time you comment on the internet and think about who could be reading it and how you make them feel

The girl who killed 2 of my family said in court she didnt think this would have happened if her mam or dad were in the car with her. How many more people have to die at the hand of people who are not qualified to be on the road before you think its a problem?

Cantona's Collars · 08-11-2017 04:53PM

The driving test is flawed,you can get lucky on the day. Get a bit of cramming in beforehand with some lessons and pass yet be a poor driver yet you managed to do what was needed on the day. I personally know people who passed yet can't even reverse a car a few feet and will do laps of a place to find a parking space they can drive in and out of.
With our ever growing network of motorways there needs to be an amendment to lessons and testing to ensure somebody who passed a test at 9am and perhaps never drove on a motorway actually has the wherewithal to drive on one an hour later as they are deemed fit to do by driving down a few streets and knowing how to use mirrors.

suicide_circus · 08-11-2017 04:55PM

it would be ****ing hilarious if they brought in mandatory retesting after 10 years, the roads would be ****ing empty

robarmstrong · 08-11-2017 04:56PM

deisedude wrote: »

That's my father and my family you are talking about. Maybe use your brain the next time you comment on the internet and think about who could be reading it and how you make them feel

I apologise for the loss your family have suffered and condolences on the loss of life your family endured, but I'm entitled to my opinion and it still stands, instead of vilification there needs to be education and training, not just for learner drivers but for all permitted to drive a car on these roads.

Ultimate Seduction · 08-11-2017 04:59PM

"Janey, you can use my car but if you get caught by the guards you better say you took it without my permission"

Stupid law can't be enforced

razorblunt · 08-11-2017 04:59PM

Janey's crime spree has escalated, first it was a gun now its car theft.

WoollyRedHat · 08-11-2017 05:00PM

valoren wrote: »

I think if you were disqualified for going over the 12 points limit then you would need to sit the test again, although you'd still get your license back once you served the 6 month ban. The test centre's are packed to capacity with learners and resits as is never mind introducing mandatory resits.

Supply and demand would come into effect, the government would have to assess and allocate extra resources if they were to legislate. I always find it suprising to find how many people have to do resits to begin with, always felt that was part of a money making scheme, but that's a whole different story.

Dravokivich · 08-11-2017 05:01PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Did you drive safely? As long as you did, I see no problem with that tbh. Like you said, different times.

People need to stop learner-bashing and take a broader a look at our driving as a whole. We can all spout anecdotes about how some full licence drivers are terrible, and some learners are terrible. What I don't agree nor understand is the logic behind it all.

Here's an example -

Person A is a provisional licence driver, they've been driving for 3 years and have covered 30,000 miles (they've travelled on a motorway - obviously illegal but the majority of learners have done this), and they have not been in any form of accident or collision.

Person B passed their theory test, did 12 lessons and passed their full test but didn't do any other driving. They've never driven on a motorway nor have they really experienced the driving culture of Ireland.

One is a hell of a lot more experienced than the other - why does one get bashed so heavily?

How good is the experience? That can be 30000 miles of shít driving on account no-one was watching, advising or criticising them.

robarmstrong wrote: »

And again, contributing nothing but drivel instead of having an intelligent and reasonable discussion doesn't change anything.

Our driving system is heavily flawed and it does need to be changed. Enough people pointing at something tends to gather attention and attention would eventually lead to awareness/change.

Nothing is worth discussing when people don't line up with you?

Our driving system isn't overly flawed. You can't out do the arrogance a lot of people have and it's not just a driving issue. Just yesterday someone behind me almost ran into a motorbike when they attempted to overtake me. Because I didn't run a bunch of cyclists in front of me off the road. Last week I saw someone walk out from behind a stationary van. There was a pedestrian crossing right in front of it.

No amount of tests or instruction will counter that.

WoollyRedHat · 08-11-2017 05:04PM

SteM wrote: »

How would you suggest this would be enforced? I did my lessons a few years ago and the bloke I did them with has moved to Australia. Would I have to track him down to get reciepts. My mother's driving instructor has passed away by now. How could she prove she had lessons?

Was there not some certification given? At the very least I think it should be mandated that a driving test resit be issued to all drivers who have been on the road before driving lessons were made mandatory.

And as another person suggested, a review of the driving test criteria should be carried out.

Cantona's Collars · 08-11-2017 05:05PM

razorblunt wrote: »

Janey's crime spree has escalated, first it was a gun now its car theft.

GTA Kerry....."Janey's got a gun".

deisedude · 08-11-2017 05:06PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I apologise for the loss your family have suffered and condolences on the loss of life your family endured, but I'm entitled to my opinion and it still stands, instead of vilification there needs to be education and training, not just for learner drivers but for all permitted to drive a car on these roads.

You are some man to talk about vilification claiming my father has a vendetta against all learner drivers in the country

Donald Trump · 08-11-2017 05:07PM

JMNolan wrote: »

How many people do unaccompanied learner drivers kill? Is this a really productive piece of legislation or is it something to make Shane Ross look productive?

Guns Unaccompanied drivers don't kill people, people cars do?

robarmstrong · 08-11-2017 05:07PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

How good is the experience? That can be 30000 miles of shít driving on account no-one was watching, advising or criticising them.

Nothing is worth discussing when people don't line up with you?

Our driving system isn't overly flawed. You can't out do the arrogance a lot of people have and it's not just a driving issue. Just yesterday someone behind me also ran into a motorbike when they attempted to overtake me. Because I didn't run a bunch of cyclists in front of me off the road. Last week I saw someone walk out from behind a stationary van. There was a pedestrian crossing right in front of it.

No amount of tests or instruction will counter that.

In my example let's say person A was a good driver with no bad habits and drove reasonably, they're still vilified for the type of licence they hold.

Our system isn't overly flawed I'd agree with that, but the flaws it does have very badly need to be rectified. The counter argument to your scenario is that a licence does not dictate driving skill, arrogance is another thing and I will 110% agree it is a problem we face on the road.

The tests and instructions all stress that a driver needs to be aware of their surroundings and possible scenarios at all times, something which not many people adhere to.

Captain Obvious · 08-11-2017 05:07PM

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

"Janey, you can use my car but if you get caught by the guards you better say you took it without my permission"

Stupid law can't be enforced

Works for insurance.

Sue Pa Key Pa · 08-11-2017 05:11PM

DarTipp wrote:

what about say someone who has a provisional licence for 2-3 years are they have to be accompanied by a fully licenced driver at all times

I'd refuse a learner's permit to anyone who has not managed to pass their test within 2 years, let alone allow them drive unaccompanied

TallGlass · 08-11-2017 05:12PM

Or how about they change the system completely, as it's not fit for purpose at all.

I got my licence for my Motorcycle, had to get IBT training before even considering going out on the door. Once done, I had some training behind me and was allowed out by myself. Not great mind you, but I had some training!

I think, you should have to do lessons, pass the test first and then be allowed on the road as a novice. It's the only way to change it, add on stupid laws that won't be enforced is ridiculous.

Graham · 08-11-2017 05:12PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I apologise for the loss your family have suffered and condolences on the loss of life your family endured, but I'm entitled to my opinion and it still stands, instead of vilification there needs to be education and training, not just for learner drivers but for all permitted to drive a car on these roads.

Nobody is trying to vilify anyone. The purpose of the new rules isn't to vilify anyone.

The purpose is quite clear, keep people off the roads on their own until they have proved they are safe to be there.

Are there other areas that need to be improved, absolutely. Does that mean we should ignore this area, absolutely not.

Rubberchikken · 08-11-2017 05:14PM

The insurance bill and void if learner driver unaccompanied and involved in an accident regardless of whether it was their fault or not.

The original law should have been enforced from.the start. Instead the Irish way if listening to the wingers complain and then give in has created a complanacy amongst drivers and parents.
A review if the testing system is badly needed.
A serious crackdown on the sense of entitlement and arrogance that is destroying our roads among other things.
Learner drivers and even those who've just passed their test shouldn't be allowed drive anything over 1.2 .
How ridiculous is it to see them passing a test in a small car and then driving 1.9 cars that aren't even being driven safely and legally by some people 2/3 times their age.

Sue Pa Key Pa · 08-11-2017 05:15PM

Captain Obvious wrote:

This is incorrect. Once an insurance company has agreed to cover you then you are covered for third party liability as required by law. It doesn't matter if you breach a term you are still insured and there is no grounds to seize the car.

There is a world of difference between your insurer honouring their obligations under the RTA to compensate an innocent 3rd party and your insurance policy paying it as valid claim

Donald Trump · 08-11-2017 05:16PM

DarTipp wrote: »

what about say someone who has a provisional licence for 2-3 years are they have to be accompanied by a fully licenced driver at all times

They've already had ample opportunity to take and pass the test multiple times by then.

If they've failed it over and over, then they can't really have too many complaints can they?

robarmstrong · 08-11-2017 05:16PM

deisedude wrote: »

You are some man to talk about vilification claiming my father has a vendetta against all learner drivers in the country

I'm not vilifying him at all, he's campaigning to enforce stricter driving measures against all learner drivers in the country due to the horrific events that unfolded.

Tragic events like that will happen in this country regardless of who has to have what licence to drive what and where. We have so many unnecessary road deaths overall and our driving culture is littered with speeding, dangerous driving, ignorance of road use and knowledge (by ALL drivers) and a decent overhaul of the tests, lessons and infrastructure could potentially re-educate and train drivers to be of a much higher standard.

_Kaiser_ · 08-11-2017 05:17PM

TallGlass wrote: »

I think, you should have to do lessons, pass the test first and then be allowed on the road as a novice. It's the only way to change it, add on stupid laws that won't be enforced is ridiculous.

Isn't that how it is now with the N plates?

Graham · 08-11-2017 05:17PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Tragic events like that will happen in this country regardless of who has to have what licence to drive what and where.

So we should do nothing because accidents will happen?

Car owners & learner drivers

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