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West of country destined to always have to settle for Heuston

  • 24-10-2017 05:18PM
    #1
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,735 ✭✭✭


    As the closest to direct train to city i mean...

    Apologies if im missing something obvious. Just been looking at metro, interconnector etc and there doesnt seem to be any plan to allow people from galway down to waterford to get direct trains into city.

    Yes im.aware that capacity is an issue but surely a new station would sort this.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,845 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    veryangryman wrote: »
    As the closest to direct train to city i mean...

    Apologies if im missing something obvious. Just been looking at metro, interconnector etc and there doesnt seem to be any plan to allow people from galway down to waterford to get direct trains into city.

    Yes im.aware that capacity is an issue but surely a new station would sort this.

    and where would you propose to locate the new station.....


  • #3
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    veryangryman wrote: »
    As the closest to direct train to city I mean...

    Apologies if I'm missing something obvious. Just been looking at metro, Interconnector etc. and there doesn't seem to be any plan to allow people from Galway down to Waterford to get direct trains into city.

    Yes I'm aware that capacity is an issue, but surely a new station would sort this.
    Sorry, but they spent all the money for that on Luas. You must transfer and wear a grin while bearing it. Or perhaps petition IE for direct trains via the Phoenix Park Tunnel into Connolly.

    As far as Waterford goes, isn't Plunkett Station on the wrong side of the Suir and just outside city limits too? The only station within the city in general was on the former line to Tramore. Galway's a bit better off.


  • #4
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,383 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Few if any cities worldwide do this

    London, Paris you get long distance train to a station normally not quite in the centre, take metro rest of the way

    Connolly isn't hugely central to start with anyway and the station is not your final destination


  • #5
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,574 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yup, this is standard. Look at the mainline rail network in any major European city. The termini are in a ring on the edge of what was the central district of that city in the late nineteenth century, with main lines radiating outwards. Connections between the termini are by urban modes of transit - buses, metro, trams, whatever.

    Paris:
    8e2c784c036ff732915639de881d21c8.gif

    London:
    xrailway_map.png.pagespeed.ic.66VwVtc04h.png

    Vienna:
    vienna.gif


  • #6
    vrusinov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 169 ✭✭vrusinov


    London and Paris are much larger cities. It puzzles me why city the size of Dublin needs two intercity rail stations. Places like Amsterdam and Prague are better examples, and as far as I know most of intercity trains terminate at central station there.

    Heuston is particularly bad in terms of connections: if you don't live/work along the luas, getting to Heuston takes ages.


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  • #7
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    vrusinov wrote: »
    London and Paris are much larger cities. It puzzles me why city the size of Dublin needs two intercity rail stations. Places like Amsterdam and Prague are better examples, and as far as I know most of intercity trains terminate at central station there.

    Heuston is particularly bad in terms of connections: if you don't live/work along the luas, getting to Heuston takes ages.

    we used to have six Rail Terminals in Dublin
    • Pearse Station
    • Harcourt Street (now a BAR)
    • Broadstone (now a Bus Depot)
    • Heuston Station
    • Connolly Station
    • North Wall Station (now closed)


    Pearse and Connolly were linked in 1891 with the "City of Dublin Junction Railway", and there was a plan to for a line from Pearse to Hueston but (like Dublin Underground a 100 years later) never happened.


  • #8
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    we used to have six Rail Terminals in Dublin
    • Pearse Station
    • Harcourt Street (now a BAR)
    • Broadstone (now a Bus Depot)
    • Heuston Station
    • Connolly Station
    • North Wall Station (now closed)


    Pearse and Connolly were linked in 1891 with the "City of Dublin Junction Railway", and there was a plan to for a line from Pearse to Hueston but (like Dublin Underground a 100 years later) never happened.

    You don't happen to have any more on that Pearse (Westland Row) to Heuston (Kingsbridge) link do ya? What sort of alignment was talked about?

    I've never heard of it. Very intrigued.

    ---

    EDIT:

    Found some tidbits here:
    The proposed track was to run from Kingsbridge along the South Quays to Westland Row, and on to Earlsfort Terrace. Although work began on Aston Quay, it was quickly abandoned after a row caused by track being used, which left a depression in the roadway between the rails.

    https://wideandconvenientstreets.wordpress.com/tag/kingsbridge/


  • #9
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,574 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    vrusinov wrote: »
    London and Paris are much larger cities. It puzzles me why city the size of Dublin needs two intercity rail stations. Places like Amsterdam and Prague are better examples, and as far as I know most of intercity trains terminate at central station there.

    Heuston is particularly bad in terms of connections: if you don't live/work along the luas, getting to Heuston takes ages.
    Places like Amsterdam and Prague have through services; they are stops on journeys between other cities which are as large or larger. Hence they need mainline routes which run through the city. This isn't true for Dublin.

    This is also influenced by the historic pattern of railway development. In countries where private countries were licensed to operate specific routes, each would build its own lines, stations and termini. In countries where railways were developed by the state, you're more likely to find a unified terminus in each city.

    The US is a bit of an exception to this pattern. Railways were developed by separate companies, but quite a lot of cities have "union stations", erected a public expense by state or local governments, to connect the different rail lines and act as a terminus for all of them - hence the name "Union Station". But, while this made economic sense in the heyday of railways from the 1890s to the 1920s, it wouldn't now.


  • #10
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    You don't happen to have any more on that Pearse (Westland Row) to Heuston (Kingsbridge) link do ya? What sort of alignment was talked about?

    I've never heard of it. Very intrigued.

    ---

    EDIT:

    Found some tidbits here:



    https://wideandconvenientstreets.wordpress.com/tag/kingsbridge/

    It's all here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100060196&postcount=39

    ****



  • #11
    mrsdewinter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭mrsdewinter


    I only became aware in recent years that the trains from the west used to terminate in Broadstone, not Heuston. Until the 1930s, I think. Broadstone doesn't strike me as very convenient - unless it's a night in McGowan's of Phibsboro you're after...


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  • #12
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,764 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    veryangryman wrote: »
    As the closest to direct train to city i mean...

    Apologies if im missing something obvious. Just been looking at metro, interconnector etc and there doesnt seem to be any plan to allow people from galway down to waterford to get direct trains into city.

    Yes im.aware that capacity is an issue but surely a new station would sort this.

    Where is Heuston if not in the city?


  • #13
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    It's all here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100060196&postcount=39

    Cheers. See my edits above too.


  • #14
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,735 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Where is Heuston if not in the city?

    There is almost nothing city-wise that is close to Heuston bar the Eir building and AOL. Hence why people do not hang anywhere close to it, instead hopping on a Luas, Bus, Taxi or bike when they disembark.

    Compare to (say) Tara St, Grand Canal Dock, Connolly, Stephens Green or Pearse. All far more central and 10 minutes walk away from the GPO.


  • #15
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,574 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Where is Heuston if not in the city?
    Are you serious? It's nearly two miles from the Pillar.


  • #16
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,764 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Are you serious? It's nearly two miles from the Pillar.

    a whole two miles?

    might as well be Naas

    Isn't there a 15 minute Luas to take whomever needs to be taken down to the 'Pillar'?

    You must be one of the only few still making reference to the non existent pillar at this stage.


  • #17
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,764 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    and where would you propose to locate the new station.....

    beside the Pillar obviously


  • #18
    vrusinov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 169 ✭✭vrusinov


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Isn't there a 15 minute Luas to take whomever needs to be taken down to the 'Pillar'?

    Pillar - maybe, many other parts may need more:

    - GCD: tram + walk, tram + dart, tram + walk? Seem to take at least 25 minutes.
    - south city center (e.g. Baggot St): around half an hour.
    - Sandyford: good luck with 57 minutes of bus + tram currently, hopefully less once luas lines are connected.


  • #19
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,764 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    vrusinov wrote: »
    Pillar - maybe, many other parts may need more:

    - GCD: tram + walk, tram + dart, tram + walk? Seem to take at least 25 minutes.
    - south city center (e.g. Baggot St): around half an hour.
    - Sandyford: good luck with 57 minutes of bus + tram currently, hopefully less once luas lines are connected.

    and?

    it takes time to get around every city in the world.

    The only way to get intercity any closer to the city centre would be an underground terminus. Not going to happen.


  • #20
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,735 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    lawred2 wrote: »
    and?

    Not going to happen.

    Why not? There was a Dart Underground plan


  • #21
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,764 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    veryangryman wrote: »
    Why not? There was a Dart Underground plan

    Intercity? OP said direct train to the city center. And has no interest in the Luas.


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  • #22
    phater phagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭phater phagan


    I'm traveling from Kerry on Monday to attend a concert at the 3 arena, and I'm really upset with Irish Rail ( Union and Management). They put out info stating that the strike would be 1st Nov. 7 Nov. 14 Nov. 23rd Nov. and 8th Dec. Now today I found out that there will actually be delays on Monday 30th Oct. I think those delays are due to works on the lines, but they seem to be affecting areas all over the country. I really believe that the management of Irish Rail really want strikes so that they can demand more funding from the government. It is very frustrating as it is not just on rare occasions that these disruptions seem to happen, but on a frequent basis. Could the railway not have waited until after the holiday weekend to do their works? I'll probably take the Green bus instead -thank goodness at least for that. I've traveled to other cities in Europe ( Zurich, Barcelona etc. ) and it is annoying to come home to such incompetence and insouciance by our public sector.
    There now. I feel better after that rant.


  • #23
    howiya
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭howiya


    phater phagan wrote: »
    I'm traveling from Kerry on Monday to attend a concert at the 3 arena, and I'm really upset with Irish Rail ( Union and Management). They put out info stating that the strike would be 1st Nov. 7 Nov. 14 Nov. 23rd Nov. and 8th Dec. Now today I found out that there will actually be delays on Monday 30th Oct. I think those delays are due to works on the lines, but they seem to be affecting areas all over the country. I really believe that the management of Irish Rail really want strikes so that they can demand more funding from the government. It is very frustrating as it is not just on rare occasions that these disruptions seem to happen, but on a frequent basis. Could the railway not have waited until after the holiday weekend to do their works? I'll probably take the Green bus instead -thank goodness at least for that. I've traveled to other cities in Europe ( Zurich, Barcelona etc. ) and it is annoying to come home to such incompetence and insouciance by our public sector.
    There now. I feel better after that rant.

    What time is the concert? Can you not take an earlier train to account for the delays?

    I've to take the train tomorrow and a journey that normally takes me 1hr 15 mins (ish) will now take 1hr 45 mins (ish). Unfortunately there are no alternative buses but it is what it is. I'd rather they carry out line improvement works than not though.


  • #24
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    [QUOTE=MGWR;105075046
    As far as Waterford goes, isn't Plunkett Station on the wrong side of the Suir and just outside city limits too? The only station within the city in general was on the former line to Tramore. [/QUOTE]

    Waterford station has been within the city boundary since at least 1906.


  • #25
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    You don't happen to have any more on that Pearse (Westland Row) to Heuston (Kingsbridge) link do ya? What sort of alignment was talked about?

    There were lots of schemes suggested between 1860s and 80s. Not just in Dublin, but throughout the land.

    One proposal which I think saw some actual work, (a hole in the ground) was a tunnel under the Liffey.
    A more realistic project to link Kingsbridge (Heuston) with Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire) for boat trains, was to go west towards Inchicore, then curve to the left, in the direction of Sandymount or Sidney Parade. It would also have connected with the Harcourt Street line around Ranelagh.

    Although not direct, it would have been a shorter trip than going via Drumcondra, and did not need any expensive bridges across the Liffey.


  • #26
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    phater phagan wrote: »
    I'm traveling from Kerry on Monday to attend a concert at the 3 arena, and I'm really upset with Irish Rail ( Union and Management). They put out info stating that the strike would be 1st Nov. 7 Nov. 14 Nov. 23rd Nov. and 8th Dec. Now today I found out that there will actually be delays on Monday 30th Oct. I think those delays are due to works on the lines, but they seem to be affecting areas all over the country. I really believe that the management of Irish Rail really want strikes so that they can demand more funding from the government. It is very frustrating as it is not just on rare occasions that these disruptions seem to happen, but on a frequent basis. Could the railway not have waited until after the holiday weekend to do their works? I'll probably take the Green bus instead -thank goodness at least for that. I've traveled to other cities in Europe ( Zurich, Barcelona etc. ) and it is annoying to come home to such incompetence and insouciance by our public sector.
    There now. I feel better after that rant.


    the work has to be done when it has to be done. the unions have nothing to do with this as they don't make any decisians.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #27
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    end of the road wrote: »
    the work has to be done when it has to be done. the unions have nothing to do with this as they don't make any decisians.

    It was however disgraceful how little notice of the work was given!

    And, no this doesn't seem to be emergency work. Rather major works that would have been planned months ahead of time. Thus notice should also have been given months ahead.

    Getting back on topic. Irish people seem to be generally obsessed with being dropped door to door. We need to get use to the idea of using connecting services (luas, bus, metro, dublin bikes, etc.) as is so common in the rest of Europe.

    Of course we also need true integrated ticketing to make it easier and better co-operation between services to line up.


  • #28
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    bk wrote: »
    Getting back on topic. Irish people seem to be generally obsessed with being dropped door to door. We need to get use to the idea of using connecting services (luas, bus, metro, dublin bikes, etc.) as is so common in the rest of Europe.

    Of course we also need true integrated ticketing to make it easier and better co-operation between services to line up.
    What's more common in "the rest of Europe" would be park/ride facilities as well. But then again, they also build major railway stations closer to the city centre too, especially the business and shopping districts, to minimise distance to city destinations. (Note Berlin's Hauptbahnhof, and its central location, within sight of government buildings and less than a mile from the Brandenburg Gate, and also designed to be at the juncture of U-bahn and S-bahn lines. Tara Street Station, the closest to O'Connell Street, is a two-track two-platform overly-congested job.)

    Also, when driving one's automobile, it is not always feasible to go door-to-door, especially in a city but quite often in towns and villages as well. Outside the city, it has become a necessity, unless one really enjoys cycling and the time it takes up.

    Integrated ticketing is also a convenience, but it can also be a public expense. It also does not entice people to leave their cars outside the city in and of itself, especially when the services are not up to scratch.


  • #29
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    MGWR wrote: »
    What's more common in "the rest of Europe" would be park/ride facilities as well.

    I agree, we do have some here, but we need a lot more.
    MGWR wrote: »
    But then again, they also build major railway stations closer to the city centre too, especially the business and shopping districts, to minimise distance to city destinations. (Note Berlin's Hauptbahnhof, and its central location, within sight of government buildings and less than a mile from the Brandenburg Gate, and also designed to be at the juncture of U-bahn and S-bahn lines. Tara Street Station, the closest to O'Connell Street, is a two-track two-platform overly-congested job.)

    Certainly true of some cities, but not all. Many European cities are also similar to Dublin with a ring of mainline rail stations just outside the core city. Of course it would be better if we had just one central station, but that is more to do with how rail developed in different countries, communism versus capitalism, etc.

    Either way, it is what it is now and we have to try and make the most of it.

    BTW Tara, Connolly and Parnell certainly aren't badly placed. Though I do this we need to do a better job of improving the pedestrian infrastructure around them and frankly the whole city.
    MGWR wrote: »
    Also, when driving one's automobile, it is not always feasible to go door-to-door, especially in a city but quite often in towns and villages as well. Outside the city, it has become a necessity, unless one really enjoys cycling and the time it takes up.

    Which is again why we need to make our cities and towns more pedestrian and cycling friendly. I agree that cars will continue to rule outside our cities.
    MGWR wrote: »
    Integrated ticketing is also a convenience, but it can also be a public expense. It also does not entice people to leave their cars outside the city in and of itself, especially when the services are not up to scratch.

    Of course, it is just one part of a bigger picture, but still an important one IMO.

    Having said that I think we could have the best public transport system in the world and you would still have trouble convincing many Irish motorists out of their cars. While Dublin's public transport could obviously be improved, I actually think it is pretty decent. I fell many motorists simply use "poor public transport" as an excuse to continue sitting in their car.

    Which is why increasingly we will just have to ban cars from our cities and give more of the road space over to public transport, walking and cycling and just take the car option off the plate.


  • #30
    CreativeSen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭CreativeSen


    bk wrote: »
    Of course we also need true integrated ticketing to make it easier and better co-operation between services to line up.
    MGWR wrote: »
    Integrated ticketing is also a convenience, but it can also be a public expense. It also does not entice people to leave their cars outside the city in and of itself, especially when the services are not up to scratch.

    Would it be useful if your rail ticket from Cork, Waterford, Limerick, Galway etc. covered your Luas or bus fare into the city centre? So one ticket the whole way through?

    I lived in Reading for a while, I could get the train to Paddington and my tube was covered for Zone 1. It was just a convenience but it was really useful.


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  • #31
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    CreativeSen wrote: »
    Would it be useful if your rail ticket from Cork, Waterford, Limerick, Galway etc. covered your Luas or bus fare into the city centre? So one ticket the whole way through?

    I lived in Reading for a while, I could get the train to Paddington and my tube was covered for Zone 1. It was just a convenience but it was really useful.

    I agree, it is a small thing, but yes, it would be very helpful if a ticket to Dublin actually got you right into Dublin city center.


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