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NY Times: The lost children of Tuam

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    It is still shameful that the politicians have not faced up to the past. What a rotten little country in so many ways.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    maryishere wrote: »
    It is still shameful that the politicians have not faced up to the past. What a rotten little country in so many ways.

    We all need to face up to it. Why are education and health services mainly delivered via Catholic bodies? Why does RTE play a Catholic call to prayer? Why does our parliament say Catholic prayers every day? Why do so many still marry in the Catholic Church?


  • Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ipso wrote: »
    If you were a priest, teacher, doctor, solicitor, business man you were sorted. Everyone else was just a sh1t muncher.

    Can't speak for other professions, but Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, Daniel O'Connell, Padraig Pearse, Edward Carson and Isaac Butt all came from the legal world and could argue that they did some service to the people they represented on this island.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,012 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Before the 1960s, the province of Quebec in Canada was in many ways similar to Ireland. Catholic church dominated and they held massive influence and power in relation to education, health, social services, etc.

    Then all of a sudden the Quiet Revolution happened, and Quebec became secular. Religious freedom was preserved - in fact enhanced - nobody had to suffer the imposition of religion any longer while accessing a taxpayer funded state service. Ironically some of those responsible for triggering this change were liberal catholic clergy.

    The parallels are obvious. But given all that has happened (that we know about) and still nothing, I think the capacity of the Irish population for tolerating and excusing its own exploitation and abuse is close to limitless.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    Before the 1960s, the province of Quebec in Canada was in many ways similar to Ireland. Catholic church dominated and they held massive influence and power in relation to education, health, social services, etc.

    Then all of a sudden the Quiet Revolution happened, and Quebec became secular. Religious freedom was preserved - in fact enhanced - nobody had to suffer the imposition of religion any longer while accessing a taxpayer funded state service. Ironically some of those responsible for triggering this change were liberal catholic clergy.

    The parallels are obvious. But given all that has happened (that we know about) and still nothing, I think the capacity of the Irish population for tolerating and excusing its own exploitation and abuse is close to limitless.

    There is a touch of Stockholm syndrome about it alright. Given what we know, it is warped that the Catholic church still has a huge influence on modern Irish society. The current generation of young people will not be so submissive.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 955 ✭✭✭flaneur


    lazygal wrote: »
    We all need to face up to it. Why are education and health services mainly delivered via Catholic bodies? Why does RTE play a Catholic call to prayer? Why does our parliament say Catholic prayers every day? Why do so many still marry in the Catholic Church?

    Brainwashing (state funded) from age 4 onwards and some kind of weird cultural deference to the Catholic Church that we can't seem to get past?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    Wouldn't say the article was as well written as people are saying. Goes a bit Spirit of Erin at times but it couldn't be anything but incredibly affecting for all that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    She balls up an empty candy wrapper and presents it to a home baby as if it still contains a sweet, then watches as the little girl’s anticipation melts to sad confusion


    Is there any other species with the capacity to inflict such pain on its fellow beings in this way? For no material gain?

    This sentence is in no way the most horrific element of the article but for some reason I found it very upsetting. To think of the life that that misfortunate child had lived and to go from the elation of thinking they were receiving a treat to the realisation that they were being laughed at, within a few seconds, must have been so upsetting.

    Again, there are so much more serious elements to the article, I don't know why this struck me as it did. I'm not thinking about the perpetrator of the act, who was a child herself, but the experience of the girl on the receiving end. It was a joke in playgrounds even as I went to school, but generally, kids on the receiving end had their own sweets or went home, and if they told their mother, probably got one. This poor child didn't have that place of comfort when they left school and that is very sad.



    It is a stunning article and the accompanying imagery helps make it so. The short video before the final section showing the walled garden is chilling. The older man standing by the entrance to the garden, possibly a relative or someone else with a connection to the home and on the left of the screen, 3 children playing happily in a garden just a few yards away, oblivious to the hardship experienced in that place.

    Catherine Corless deserves tremendous recognition for the respect she afforded the 796 babies and their mothers in Tuam and for anyone who was treated in this way.
    I'm quite sure she does not want any adulation or material reward, maybe if people treated each other with more respect and dignity as a result of hearing of Catherines work, it would be the best reward for her.

    I felt exactly the same way, I think the worse elements of the story are so surreal that we instinctively just can't believe it, its like the kid playing with
    the skull thinking it was a dolls head, never entered his mind that it possibly be what it was.

    This simple image of a child being sad that she hasn't a sweet is so simple and easy to believe and of course heartbreaking, the tough tough
    life she has to endure and then a mini break comes along only to be destroyed and doubly so by mocking children witnessing it.

    So so sad, for me no other part of the article hit me as that did.

    As said before in the thread, how people can still associate themselves with the RCC is just astounding to me ...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,372 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    I think Martin Luther, who started the Reformation 500 years ago today, would completely agree with you all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,308 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm




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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    Someone mentioned the Angelus above, wow, I forgot about that, I don't watch Irish TV but in this day and age we still have that bullsh*t on our national broadcaster? Unbelievable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Carry


    Wouldn't say the article was as well written as people are saying. Goes a bit Spirit of Erin at times but it couldn't be anything but incredibly affecting for all that.
    (...)

    This simple image of a child being sad that she hasn't a sweet is so simple and easy to believe and of course heartbreaking, the tough tough
    life she has to endure and then a mini break comes along only to be destroyed and doubly so by mocking children witnessing it.

    So so sad, for me no other part of the article hit me as that did.

    (...)

    That's exactly why this article is so well written. It creates at first an atmosphere, brings home the "normalcy"" of tragedy, makes the reader empathise because everyone can feel the utter disappointment of the child and the thoughtless cruelty of the other kids. It personalises.

    Then it intertwines the motives of Catherine Corless, her relentless work against all ignorance and animosity, with the history of that house of horrors and the stories of surviviors. And all that without judgement or being outraged, just decribing as it was and is.

    I've read a lot about the so-called Tuam Babies, was appalled, of course, but filed it away as just another Irish scandal coming out from under the catholic carpet. This article however really hit home and touched me deeply, despite not being Irish and hence not having any experience how it is to grow up in an Ireland ruled by a ruthless theocracy.

    I'm a writer myself and know when to bow my head in humility when I read a piece that embodies brilliant journalism, that is well researched, artfully composed and touches the hearts of the readers without being emotional or accusatory. The words speak for themselves.

    And it has the effect that people talk about the horrors of Tuam, appreciate Catherine Corless' work and question again and again the influence and wrongdoings of a church that brought more misery than spiritual comfort to people.
    That's what excellent writing can and should do.

    This article made me cry and it made me angry. And I'm not one to be easily upset or outraged.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭LynnGrace


    One of the many stories within the article that broke my heart was the mother asking for her child back and being refused, time and again.

    I have followed the story of the Tuam Babies for quite some time. There are no words adequate to describe it. Catherine Corless, an ordinary woman, brought this to light, singlehandedly.
    And nobody in a position of authority, wanted to know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    Someone mentioned the Angelus above, wow, I forgot about that, I don't watch Irish TV but in this day and age we still have that bullsh*t on our national broadcaster? Unbelievable.

    Don't you see it? It's the twice daily reminder of how you have been indoctrinated. It is typical cult behaviour. The muslims do it too but much earlier and more often ;)

    Ludicrous carry on alright.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    Like others, I am appalled at the way the Catholic Church continues to spread it's web over all of the important aspects of our lives - healthcare, education and politics.

    When will these monsters be held accountable?
    I don't want them influencing any part of my life.
    People need to stop baptising their children and getting married in churches and only going to mass at Christmas and Easter if they don't believe in the fairytales from the priest.

    If you're dragging your child to mass at the moment, in preparation for them making their communion next year, but you don't actually care about the church or the process and are just doing it to keep the grandparents happy, you are part of the problem.

    Have the courage to stand by your convictions, stop giving the church what they need to continue with their control - your children.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    erica74 wrote: »
    Like others, I am appalled at the way the Catholic Church continues to spread it's web over all of the important aspects of our lives - healthcare, education and politics.

    When will these monsters be held accountable?
    I don't want them influencing any part of my life.
    People need to stop baptising their children and getting married in churches and only going to mass at Christmas and Easter if they don't believe in the fairytales from the priest.

    If you're dragging your child to mass at the moment, in preparation for them making their communion next year, but you don't actually care about the church or the process and are just doing it to keep the grandparents happy, you are part of the problem.

    Have the courage to stand by your convictions, stop giving the church what they need to continue with their control - your children.

    Great post. You are right but some will find it hard to swallow and say it's part of their culture to keep up the sham.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Ashbourne hoop


    Great piece, although so tragic, thanks for linking OP. The country owes Catherine Corless a huge debt. Once again Ireland is International news because of the actions of the Catholic Church.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,707 ✭✭✭valoren


    The part about Corless playing a trick on the home baby with the sweet wrapper. The look of sadness and humiliation. That's haunting and upsets me.

    Only in later years did she understand the cruelty of it.

    Posted thoughts on Tuam in the past per below.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102832391&postcount=826


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Lily Munster


    Fizzlesque wrote: »
    Although I found it difficult to read that article, I felt compelled to read it to the end. During my reading, I oscillated between horror at what could have been and enormous relief that in the late eighties, when I was a pregnant unmarried mother-to-be, the church didn't have quite the same grip it heartlessly and callously enjoyed once upon a time. It was still there, but not quite so vice-like.

    It's 28 years since I agreed to have my child adopted and while I wasn't forced to make that choice, it wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to keep my baby but my father painted such a bleak picture of how our lives would unfold, I was terrified at the thought of inflicting such an awful 'fait accompli' on my child.

    I bowed to the pressure and agreed to let another woman become my child's mother. When I read this New York Times article, it brought back a lot of half forgotten memories and while they make my heart feel heavy, they also bring some relief and a lot of gratitude. The relief comes from remembering that the times back then were very different to how they are now, and the guilt I've allowed build up, like years of debris in an uncleaned gutter, should be stopped in its tracks because I'm using my today-mind to view a years-ago decision. The gratitude probably needs no explanation - mostly that I wasn't sent to a mother and baby home to atone for my "sin" and eventually relinquish my baby, never to hear of her again.

    My heart bleeds for the women that were sent to these places, who lost their babies either through death or adoption. To never be able to speak of their loss, to share their pain or to try ease some of their heartache. They punished the grieving and made light of their pain.

    I have a semi-open adoption. I know where my child is. I have contact of sorts. I have hope she will come back to me some day. I can talk (and do, freely and often) about my emotions and my loss, but these women were silenced and shamed. Although it is 28 years since I said goodbye to my child, just yesterday I cried like a wounded animal, and wailed to the earless air around me asking it to send a message to her that I miss her and desperately want to see her again. Today, as I read that article, all I could think of was, lucky me, to have at least the chance of reunion. Lucky me to be allowed to express my love and my pain. Lucky me to know my child had a good childhood, was cared for, hugged, loved and always knew laughter, happiness and acceptance.

    Those children and those women were treated barbarically. Made out to be filth when the truth was the filth was the church and those who put its obnoxious teachings into practice.

    I feel anger when I read that article. Anger for myself, even though I got off lightly. Anger for those that suffered with no respite and no recourse. But, anger is no good and I've cried enough over the last 28 years to drown us all so I will dry my eyes and switch my attention to feeling grateful that among us are wonderful women like Catherine Corless whose tireless insistence on getting to the bottom of this story has brought this terrible truth into the light.
    That hurt my heart... ;-(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    Grim reading. I see on another thread people jumping to defend Ireland saying we are a great little country but really, I am not so sure. This is our shame, these misjustices committed with our money and it is continued to be covered up,

    There is a real darkness in our society at a state level and it makes me ashamed. Every citizen in the country should read that article. A real eye opener.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Lily Munster


    Don't agree with collective blame/shame. Countless people are condemning it, and have been doing so for decades. And those of us who weren't even alive for the horror and also condemn it, definitely shouldn't feel shame. Shame, and blame for the "sins" of the mothers and fathers is more of a catholic hierarchy thing. I wouldn't hold absolutely every single individual member of the catholic church accountable either.

    The only people I take issue with are the abusers, the state agencies of the time colluding with them, the families of girls who treated them with similar contempt, and anyone who could have done something concrete (many tried to help in little ways) but chose not to.

    Today, the only people I have an issue with are any of the above people who are still alive, and those who downplay what happened. I don't take issue with someone for being religious though (I'm agnostic myself) but I think the church and state need to be separated for sure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 955 ✭✭✭flaneur


    Well, we still have the state funded, state owned, public service broadcaster broadcasting calls to prayer twice a day on radio and once a day on TV and not having the guts to even broach discussing cancelling it, and instead watering it down and claiming it's a time for reflection.

    We've the Dail and Seanad starting with prayers:

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/a-misc/prayer.htm
    Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen.

    The above prayer is said at the commencement of each day's business in the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle, and in the Seanad by the Clerk of the Seanad.

    Not only does that slam prayers into the legislature but, it also excludes non-religious and no christian TDs and citizens from fully taking part in what is supposed to be a secular republic's legislative process.

    For example, https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/dáil-seanad-refuse-to-have-hindu-prayer-at-opening-sessions-1.3031229 - was rejected out of hand. It's very hard to see how the state can continue to endorse one religion while claiming to have no established church. The whole thing is ridiculous.

    A lot of Irish City and County Councils also insist on starting with prayers.

    I would rather that these chambers started with a moment of swearing to the people to act in their interest and to be free from corruption and adhere to basic principles of democracy and transparency than trying to introduce a de facto state religion via the back door.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Don't knock the prayer. Nothing bad I Ireland ever happened when they prayed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    Grim reading. I see on another thread people jumping to defend Ireland saying we are a great little country but really, I am not so sure. This is our shame, these misjustices committed with our money and it is continued to be covered up,

    There is a real darkness in our society at a state level and it makes me ashamed. Every citizen in the country should read that article. A real eye opener.

    A lot of people just wouldn't read it. A blind eye.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,087 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    flaneur wrote: »
    Well, we still have the state funded, state owned, public service broadcaster broadcasting calls to prayer twice a day on radio and once a day on TV and not having the guts to even broach discussing cancelling it, and instead watering it down and claiming it's a time for reflection.

    It's appropriate, because we still have 78% claiming to be Roman Catholic at the last census.

    Now, some of us would say that a great number of those aren't really Catholic at all. But our measure is not Mass-going vs not. It's the way that people live their lives. If people here were genuinely Catholic, as opposed to Catholic-for-social-status-purposes, then the Celtic Tiger would never have happened. Neither would the other catalog of abuses which started when the Irish state was formed, and have continued on since, changing only in who is the main target: unmarried mothers -> illegitimate children -> orphans -> disabled people -> Travellers -> asylum seekers ... same shyte, different target groups. All having in common that they're poor.

    Quite ironic really that the English closed down workhouses as no longer fit for purpose, and then the Irish used the buildings to deliver an "anything but what the English are doing" social welfare system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Daisy78


    I've posted about this topic before in another thread but I think that article is so profound it is worth commenting on again. It left me heartsore. I grew up in Tuam and went to school there so this is a topic that is close to my heart in more ways than one. It's such an overwhelming story that sometimes the impact of it can pass you by, it's only when the smaller details are brought to life like the incident with the sweet, which should be insignificant in comparison to the truly awful acts of cruelty that were perpetrated, do you really appreciate what a sad story this is. The consequences were far reaching, a missing generation (and subsequent generations, the home babies would be grandparents now) , a generation of children growing up without the self esteem a parent would instill in them to carry them through life, a community who felt that it was acceptable to ostracise a person purely on the circumstances of their birth.

    I think the Catholic Church has an awful lot to answer for, that goes without saying. But i think that the community also has to accept responsibility for the fact that these children were treated the way that they were. Those individuals who couldn't bring themselves to share a bench with a man because of where he came from have to ask themselves if they were were truly acting as decent Christian people. Sure the seed was sown by the Church but at the end of the day it was the lay community who acted on that message and used it as a way of subjegating a subset of people they saw as beneath them. We are only ever answerable for our own behaviour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Lily Munster


    Are the "Irish society is so terrible - ok I'm Irish and living in Ireland but somehow I'm different and better" crowd gonna... offer alternatives, do something to change things or just... moan about everyone else? :)

    Stop deflecting from the actual abusers.

    Society did not beat and rape those children. Nobody else was kinda metaphorically responsible for those beatings and rapes, the abusers were and nobody else.

    People were under the grip of the church and were afraid and brainwashed. Anyone who thinks today that THEY would have done things differently - hell of a coincidence don't you think? We can all say anything in 2017 - we have that luxury.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭Bambi985


    It's the only piece of journalism that has played on my mind in such a relentless and profound fashion ever since I read it. It hits home. It says so much about who we were - who we are - as a society and as a nation. Right up to the public resistance that Catherine Corless faced a few short years ago. I think it'd be naive to believe that this monstrosity and the many other forms of abuse, intimidation, neglect, judgement and callous cruelty at the hands of a church that was deeply embedded in our society would not be in our collective DNA at this stage. To think that we would just "move on" as a society without carrying those wounds.

    It's not really enough to dismiss it as the "dark ages" and to continue to baptise our children and educate them in catholic-church funded schools and celebrate our weddings in churches, is it? It just...doesn't fit. A church that has been so fundamentally un-Christian and so painfully hypocritical that meets all of these devastating exposures of wrongdoing with trite soundbites and lukewarm apologies and absolutely no further action is not really one to be trusted, is it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    I read the article from the NY Times and, to me, the incident with the sweet illustrated the attitude of Irish people at the time. Why did poor innocent Catherine treat the other child with such cruelty? It was because she had picked up from her parents and the 'decent' people around her that this was the way you treat those 'different' children.
    The incident shows how most Irish people at the time held unmarried mothers and their children in contempt.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Lily Munster


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    I read the article from the NY Times and, to me, the incident with the sweet illustrated the attitude of Irish people at the time. Why did poor innocent Catherine treat the other child with such cruelty? It was because she had picked up from her parents and the 'decent' people around her that this was the way you treat those 'different' children.
    The incident shows how most Irish people at the time held unmarried mothers and their children in contempt.

    Well that's true. It's blaming society for the abuse that sickens me - sometimes people have a real fetish for blaming those who are not directly responsible.

    The church and state programmed them to feel that way though. Take away the church and government (especially early free state governments) and would people have felt that way?

    It was top down.


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