Brexit discussion thread II

solodeogloria wrote: »

I doubt two things. Firstly that automatically that this will be revoked because it is in the interests of both parties to see this maintained,

The recognition of a UK license to have effect as any other EU(27) license will be automatically revoked by operation of law in case of no-deal crash-out, is the point.

Meaning that, come no-deal Brexit day, any UK license-holding EU27 resident would cease to be entitled to drive and cease to be insured (-subject to respective insurance contract clauses), until and unless the EU27 member State in which they reside implements relevant updating/amending legislation restoring that recognition.

There is nothing to preclude any EU27 Member State from taking pre-emptive action in the matter, of course, and updating/amending legislation early. But I guess they are not going to get started until the UK's position about reciprocal EU/UK nationals rights (of which driving licenses is a part, I expect) is settled one way or the other.

solodeogloria wrote: »

or moreover that most countries will actually remove the UK from the list of non-EU licences that can be swapped.

The UK is currently an EU Member State and not included on those lists by reason of same. It cannot be removed from a list in which it is not included.

The UK would need including on those lists in the absence of an agreement (encompassing the issue, amongst so many others)prior to March 2019, which is exactly what Peregrinus and others explained.

Incidentally, and just to compound Calina's post above, it is the exact same issue (EU law ceasing to apply, meaning EU law-embedded mutual recognition of qualifications and other EU-mandatory conditions ceasing to apply) which would result in my removal from the respective official registers of qualified professionals maintained by the Irish patent office and the EUropean IP Office, if I stayed in the UK come Brexit day (and in this case, unlike driving license, regardless of whether there is a deal or not by that time, or afterwards). Just another real-life example amongst so many others (hundreds, if not thousands, of them indeed).

Which is now, thankfully, a redundant personal issue. Just got to get moved and my British Mrs settled with all procedural t's crossed and i's dotted before crash-out day. So long as it happens after Q1 2018, we're good

The British government’s attempt to lobby individual EU leaders in the run-up to the recent crunch EU summit, where member states were to judge the progress of the negotiations, actively damaged Theresa May’s hopes of a better outcome, the Guardian has learned.

A secret plan had been drawn up under which the EU leaders would have made the surprise and highly symbolic move of stating in their conclusions on the day of the European council meeting that they would take into account Britain’s positions as they announced their intention to scope out their ideas on a post-Brexit transition period and trading relationship

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/29/uks-pre-summit-push-to-divide-and-rule-eu-27-impeded-brexit-talks

An other own goal for team Brexit. Surely they would of known the united front is a core EU strategy and to undermine it was silly. At the end of the day even if it worked every member state has a a veto a divided EU actually doesn't benefit the UK.

ambro25 wrote:

They will be, if their UK license ceases to entitle them to drive and/or voids their insurance cover as a result of voided recognition (i.e. under a no-deal Brexit scenario), whilever there is lack of legal certainty about the recognition of that UK license in the EU27 country in which they reside.

There are procedures for foreign licence holders to use their own licence temporarily (usually a year) and to exchange it for - or otherwise acquire - a local licence. These procedures will be available to British licence holders after Brexit.

First Up wrote: »

There are procedures for foreign licence holders to use their own licence temporarily (usually a year) and to exchange it for - or otherwise acquire - a local licence. These procedures will be available to British licence holders after Brexit.

I think you're missing the point. These are the kind of details which need to be agreed and written down rather than anyone taking it for granted that it'll be grand. They are details which need to be ironed out.

Taking it for granted that these details will be ironed out is a huge risk in the context of a discussion which also includes crashing out with exit or transition agreements.

These procedures exist because they were agreed. But many of the agreements underpinning things like driving licences may disappear in March 2019 if people don't actively look at them. So the question is "on what grounds can you state categorically that these procedures will be available", not just in terms of driving licences but mutual recognition of qualifications (amongst other things) and arrangements to export pharmaceuticals to name just 3 examples which have cropped up as areas where people have a very real concern that they will be facing a vacuum.

What we are discussing is the need to ensuring that agreements continue to exist. It's not just about driving licences. It'ss about thousands of things which you and I may not have thought about because we don't know about them. Ambro25 has mentioned several times the impact Brexit has on him directly. One of my qualifications is a UK qualification as well and I do not know what happens to mutual recognition of that post Brexit because there are no indications.

The UK voted out to be out, to set its own rules etc etc etc. If those rules and regulations do not align with EU related rules and regulations, then it will be very difficult to make a case for regulatory equivalence

You're getting hung up on driving licences. But it's just an example of many, many things which I strongly suspect haven't even occurred to the Liam Foxes and David Davises of this world. After all, the idea that the UK might be out of Erasmus came as a metric shock to people last year. And the response was "oh we'll just negotiate back into that".

How many things have to be renegotiated and reagreed?

Calina wrote:

I think you're missing the point. These are the kind of details which need to be agreed and written down rather than anyone taking it for granted that it'll be grand. They are details which need to be ironed out.

There isn't a point to miss. No country's licence holders are banned from driving in the EU.

As EU citizens, UK licence holders have reciprocal rights in other EU member states. When they leave, they will simply revert to the terms that already apply to foreign nationals from non-EU countries unless both sides agree to keep things as they are.

The worst that will happen is UK licence holders are treated like other non EU nationals.

Calina wrote:

And this is true for a lot of different things which have hitherto been agreed at an EU level for EU members. The UK ceases to be a member, then a lot of details about a lot of things need to be sorted out.

There are things that are entirely connected to the UK's membership of the EU and it is correct that all of these have to be addressed on a case by case basis.

Driving licences is not one of them. There are agreements, conventions and procedures for people driving in countries other than their own. After Brexit, the UK may move to a different procedure than at present and EU drivers in the UK will do the same.

That's all.

Can we please stop talking about licenses?
Non-EU licences are actually not EU policy and every member state is free to deal with them as they wish. The UK will probably have to agree with the EU-27, deal or no deal.
As tourists, they'll definitely be able to drive.

breatheme wrote: »

Can we please stop talking about licenses?

Personally, I never mind stopping to talk about any point, once it has been conceded or has lost its topical relevance in the course of the discussion.

But, personally still, please do not expect me to ignore any hand-waving or diminishing "ah it'll all be grand"-type replies, to posts raising genuine Brexit-causes issues, be they big or small.

Because that's exactly how the whole clusterf*** started in the first place, that's exactly what needed combatting in anger from the get-go of the campaign before the referendum, and what (obviously) still needs combatting in anger to date.

Which, hopefully, is fair enough

And when will the UK let their negotiators start their work. The UK knows it needs more progress on the 3 brexit items before negotiations can start, but the UK keeps stalling. Which must be a tactic they fell gives an advantage, for the life of me I can't see it.

As for driving licenses I don't see it as a large ticket item and it's something that will be sorted quickly. 6 or 7 months should do it.

Calina wrote: »

What we are discussing is the need to ensuring that agreements continue to exist. It's not just about driving licences. It's about thousands of things which you and I may not have thought about because we don't know about them. Ambro25 has mentioned several times the impact Brexit has on him directly.One of my qualifications is a UK qualification as well and I do not know what happens to mutual recognition of that post Brexit because there are no indications.

That may (may, not will) be resolved either through-

• an UK-EU deal, if there is one and if that deal has the relevant statutory scope (encompassing your qualification, and activity sector if relevant); and/or
• your host country's own regulatory regime and due process

In my case, I was actually facing two unknowns-

• Ireland: Sections 106 and 108(2) Patents Act 1992, and Rules 8(1)(c) and (d) Register of Patent Agent Rules 2015; and Sections 86 and 88(1) Irish Trade Marks Act 1996, and Rules 5(1)(a) and (b) European Communities (TM Agents) Regulations 2016 (SI 47/2016); and
• European institution: Articles 92 and 93 EUTMR and Articles 77 and 78 EUCDR

These provisions govern my capacity to practice respectively -and complementarily- before the Irish Patent Office and the EUropean IP Office.

The fundamental theme in both, is EEA domiciliation. For instance, for the EUTMR/EUCDR ones, the text is basically "any natural person can be entered on the list of authorised representatives before the EUIPO, who fulfils the following conditions:

• is a national of one of the Member States of the European Economic Area; and
• has his or her place of business or employment in the European Economic Area; and
• is entitled to represent natural or legal persons in trade mark/design matters before the central property office of a Member State of the European Economic Area. (Note: that central industrial property office does not have to correspond to the place of business or employment. However, it must be within the European Economic Area).

These tests are cumulative, and since the UK Brexiting out of the EEA automatically voids UK-based attorneys' capacity to meet these tests (since they cease to meet the second test above and, for UK nationals, the first test as well), so the UK Brexiting out the EEA automatically takes them off the EUIPO Register (and, for the few UK-based ones, off the Irish Register(s) as well).

It's something we (as a regulated profession) immediately saw the second Brexit was mooted, never mind put to a referendum; something which we warned and talked to the powers-that-be about before the referendum, and since (and which, I anticipate, features prominently in the yet-to-be-publicised HMG sectoral report about our industry). It's also why there's never been more UK solicitors applying for entry onto the Irish Roll of Solicitors, nor more UK applicants to sit the Irish IP qualifying exams, than since June 2016 (I don't expect it will make much of a difference for them if the UK does Brexit outside the EEA, but well, better to have it and not need it, than the reverse eh?)

And it's also something about which, as in your case, there still isn't the slightest bit of noise, officially or not, to this day. Whether from HMG, from the UKIPO or from any other stakeholder. It's still fog central, 16 months on, with about 18 months to go tops.

For me, moving to the EU27 before Brexit cancels these unknowns completely (because I now escape the possibility of falling outside the legal tests inherent to the above-quoted provisions through Brexiting outside the EEA).

But, and of course, it creates a new problem in the UK (in view of my UK qualification).

Pragmatically, it is a 'lesser' unknown, because unlike the Irish Patents Office and the European institution, there is no statutory requirement of professional qualification to act as a representative before the UK Patent Office. The UK badge is a good one to have for marketing and fee level-justifying purposes, both at home and abroad, but strictly speaking it is not needed to do the job, unlike the Irish badge to work before the IPO and the <EU27> badge to work before the EUIPO.

So unless the UK Patent Office was to shut down direct access to non-UK applicants and representatives post-Brexit (a protectionist measure which would run counter both to the UKIPO's policies of the past 20 years and May's "Global UK" aspirations), that new problem is a non-problem.

Driving licenses are a small side issue in the grand scheme of things, I fully agree. But the fundamental problem is that this grand scheme of things is made up of a myriad such small side issues as the driving license and my own (example-) small side issues. Calina is absolutely spot on about this, but I guess many detractors and wing sprouters do not see it, because they have never faced such situations, nor their consequences.

And the fact of the matter is that, for all the constructive forewarning done and pushed and trumpeted by 'experts' like me about their own small side issues, there still isn't the faintest clue yet, that anyone in HMG has grasped the fact that what is needed to Brexit at least possible pain requires considering and grasping with the full scale (or, well, as fully as possible) of these small side issues before March 2019. After that time is too late, because automatic operation of law (and then we'd be into the worst possible form of crisis management context: ad hoc firefighting, often as not creating more problems medium- and long-term than it solves short-term).

murphaph wrote: »

Driving licences are a real issue. You're looking at it from the perspective of a UK tourist visiting the EU, which to my mind should not pose any problem.

The issue is UK licence holders who will be living elsewhere in the EU on Brexit day. The legal framework that recognises their UK licences as equivalent to a domestic one will vanish overnight. The UK licence will immediately be a third country licence.

.

I'm well aware of that. The point I'm trying to get across is that there are mechanisms available to UK citizens resident in the EU to get a local licence. Those mechanisms are not in any way contingent on the UK's Brexit arrangements. Best case scenario, their UK licences will continue to be recognised. Worst case scenario, they get a local one in then same way any other non-EU national can.

First Up wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. The point I'm trying to get across is that there are mechanisms available to UK citizens resident in the EU to get a local licence. Those mechanisms are not in any way contingent on the UK's Brexit arrangements. Best case scenario, their UK licences will continue to be recognised. Worst case scenario, they get a local one in then same way any other non-EU national can.

This is contingent on the Brexit arrangements.

If the UK crashes out sans deal then UK licence holders living in the EU will have to stop driving immediately because (in most cases) they will already be living in the EU 27 state longer than the max period allowed for driving on a third country licence.

Only once their host country updates its own laws to allow an exchange may the UK licence holder get a licence again. This will (going by current examples) likely be limited to cars only.

"If you hold a driving licence from a state that is not a member of the EU or the EEA, this licence will be valid for six months after you have established your normal residence in the Federal Republic of Germany. After this period, your driving licence will no longer be recognized."

https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/LA/validity-foreign-driving-licences-in-germany.html

Edit: Also from that link in the section covering EU licences...

"If your foreign driving licence is about to expire or is no longer valid, you will receive a German licence of the same category upon request."

So hopefully Brits in Germany will actually be allowed to exchange their licences even if they have plenty of validity left on them!

Nody wrote: »

Well the under the table answer to this is that the airlines have told May's government they will add a clause about it and expect the government to back them up on it basically. So they will book as usual but have a new clause stating for any tickets after 30th March 2019 that in case of Brexit related issues they will not be held responsible for any additional costs. Not sure if that would hold up in actual court or not though.

2nd bit in bold doesn't matter, if airlines get (1st bit in bold) an indemnification from HMG about Brexit outcome-frustrated contracts (air tickets cancelled on the back of Brexit outcome).

The issue wouldn't even need to see a Court and have such niceties as “Force Majeure” debated and considered: peeps can just go straight to No.11 for a refund.

Indemnification which airlines are sure to get, when they present their (commonsensical) liability-mitigating alternative to No.10, which shall be to simply not sell air fares (I'll let you imagine the PR fallout from that one!)

Did someone mention "taxpayers", "over" and "barrel" in the same sentence here?

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Westminster government might accept such a clause, but I wonder if there'd be a problem at the EU side. It wouldn't particularly surprise me if it's against some reg/rule for airlines to sell tickets for flights in a years time that they don't actually have a license for?

But right now they do have a licence for it. And, by the time they don't (if that happens, of course) UK residents will no longer have recourse to the European legal system to vindicate whatever rights they may once have had under EU law. It'll be a matter for UK law as to whether they have any recourse in the UK courts against airlines which sold them tickets that they cannot now honour, but I think the airlines would have a strong (and reasonable) objection to making them liable for the consequences of the Government's Brexit policy.

In real life, I expect this to get sorted; regardless of the bigger picture there will at the very least be agreements to allow UK airlines to fly to the EU and vice versa. If necessary May will accept ECJ jursidiction over aviation to the extent necessary to make this possible. Her advisers will beat her about the head and neck with a broken bottle until she sees the political necessity for this.

Peregrinus wrote: »

But right now they do have a licence for it. And, by the time they don't (if that happens, of course) UK residents will no longer have recourse to the European legal system to vindicate whatever rights they may once have had under EU law. It'll be a matter for UK law as to whether they have any recourse in the UK courts against airlines which sold them tickets that they cannot now honour, but I think the airlines would have a strong (and reasonable) objection to making them liable for the consequences of the Government's Brexit policy.

In real life, I expect this to get sorted; regardless of the bigger picture there will at the very least be agreements to allow UK airlines to fly to the EU and vice versa. If necessary May will accept ECJ jursidiction over aviation to the extent necessary to make this possible. Her advisers will beat her about the head and neck with a broken bottle until she sees the political necessity for this.

That is reasonable and sensible but it looks and feels ‘a la carte’ regarding ECJ jurisdiction. That might be a wedge that the EU side will use to expand to other areas that might not be too palatable to the UK extremists.