Brexit discussion thread II

breatheme · 29-10-2017 10:35PM

To be fair... most tourists are able to drive in a foreign country. Driving commercially is a different thing, however.

First Up · 29-10-2017 10:42PM

breatheme wrote:

To be fair... most tourists are able to drive in a foreign country. Driving commercially is a different thing, however.

This is trivia that can be sorted at the stroke of a pen.

There are far bigger issues.

Nate--IRL-- · 29-10-2017 10:53PM

First Up wrote: »

This is trivia that can be sorted at the stroke of a pen.

There are far bigger issues.

It will become more than trivia if the "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" principle is applied to the exit talks. Or a No-Deal Brexit occurs.

Nate

First Up · 29-10-2017 10:58PM

Nate--IRL-- wrote:

It will become more than trivia if the "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" principle is applied to the exit talks. Or a No-Deal Brexit occurs.

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

Nody · 29-10-2017 11:04PM

First Up wrote: »

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

NDLS webpage wrote:

All countries in the EU benefit from a 'mutual recognition' agreement in respect of driving licences.

Want to guess what happens if you leave a group that has "mutual recognition agreement" without an agreement on recognition after leaving of said licenses? Hence yes it is a Brexit issue and it is simply another among a myriad of small things that are piling up in the "hard brexit will be no issue as we trade on WTO terms" pile that's UK press simply don't discuss but will have a direct impact on day 1 on a hard "no deal because WTO terms is fine" Brexit which so many Tories started to push for. A no deal brexit goes so beyond trade deals and WTO terms it's not even funny how much stuff that's ignored about it and the implications it will bring.

Or do you perhaps want to discuss the Astra Zenica pills sold to China under a EU trade agreement instead and what happens after Brexit seeing how the department of international trade has only ONE person with any noticeable trade deal experience?

Really Interested · 29-10-2017 11:08PM

First Up wrote: »

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

I would think you are correct

https://www.global-regulation.com/translation/switzerland/2976597/rs-0.741.11-international-convention-of-24-april-1926-relating-to-vehicular-traffic-%2528with-annexes%2529.html

Requirements for car drivers to qualify internationally to drive an automobile on the public highway art. 6. the driver of a motor vehicle must have the qualities that give a sufficient guarantee for public safety.
Regarding international traffic, no person shall drive an automobile without having received, for this purpose, an authorization issued by a competent authority or by an association empowered by it once he has demonstrated his ability.
Permission may be granted to persons under

The UK is signed up to the conventions on Road Traffic 1926 1949 and 1968, as are most if not all of the EU27.

Really Interested · 29-10-2017 11:10PM

Nody wrote: »

Want to guess what happens if you leave a group that has "mutual recognition agreement" without an agreement on recognition after leaving of said licenses? Hence yes it is a Brexit issue and it is simply another among a myriad of small things that are piling up in the "hard brexit will be no issue as we trade on WTO terms" pile that's UK press simply don't discuss but will have a direct impact on day 1 on a hard "no deal because WTO terms is fine" Brexit which so many Tories started to push for.

Or do you perhaps want to discuss the Aztra Zenica pills sold to China under a EU trade agreement instead and what happens after Brexit?

There are other treaties in existence

https://www.global-regulation.com/translation/switzerland/2976597/rs-0.741.11-international-convention-of-24-april-1926-relating-to-vehicular-traffic-%2528with-annexes%2529.html

https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetailsV.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-1&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg5&clang=_en

https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetailsIII.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&clang=_en

Nate--IRL-- · 29-10-2017 11:12PM

First Up wrote: »

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

It is is very much a EU/Brexit issue. One of the millions of "tiny" issues that are the whole bloody point of the exit talks to resolve before they leave.

Since the UK will be leaving the EEA, you'll find that Directive 2006/126/EEC no longer applies to the UK. So, there will be no agreement on the validity of UK licences in the EEA, or vice versa, in the event of a No-Deal Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence

EDIT:- I see above, that I'm wrong, it is not the only treaty applicable.

Nate

Really Interested · 29-10-2017 11:13PM

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

It is is very much a EU/Brexit issue. One of the millions of "tiny" issues that are the whole bloody point of the exit talks to resolve before they leave.

Since the UK will be leaving the EEA, you'll find that Directive 2006/126/EEC no longer applies to the UK. So, there will be no agreement on the validity of UK licences in the EEA, or vice versa, in the event of a No-Deal Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence

Nate

Did you even bother to read my previous post?

Nody · 29-10-2017 11:15PM

Really Interested wrote: »

I would think you are correct

https://www.global-regulation.com/translation/switzerland/2976597/rs-0.741.11-international-convention-of-24-april-1926-relating-to-vehicular-traffic-%2528with-annexes%2529.html

Requirements for car drivers to qualify internationally to drive an automobile on the public highway art. 6. the driver of a motor vehicle must have the qualities that give a sufficient guarantee for public safety.
Regarding international traffic, no person shall drive an automobile without having received, for this purpose, an authorization issued by a competent authority or by an association empowered by it once he has demonstrated his ability.
Permission may be granted to persons under

The UK is signed up to the conventions on Road Traffic 1926 1949 and 1968, as are most if not all of the EU27.

Sorry but you are wrong; it is up to each EU country to decide which non EU licenses they recognise or not.

Recognition of EU driving licences issued in exchange for a non‑EU licence

If you have an EU driving licence that was issued in exchange for a non‑EU licence, and you wish to move to another EU country with your converted licence, you should be aware that your new licence may not be recognised there. This is up to each EU country.

You need to check with the local authorities in your new country what the conditions are for recognising non-EU licences.

Directly from EU itself. Hence short of every single EU country implementing rules to recognise it by Brexit the UK license is not valid for any vehicle category.

Nate--IRL-- · 29-10-2017 11:16PM

Really Interested wrote: »

Did you even bother to read my previous post?

No - I was typing mine.

Nate

Really Interested · 29-10-2017 11:18PM

Nody wrote: »

Sorry but you are wrong; it is up to each EU country to decide which non EU licenses they recognise or not.

Directly from EU itself. Hence short of every single EU country implementing rules to recognise it by Brexit the UK license is not valid for any vehicle category.

Yes that is EU law for EU members, but that does not do away with the international conventions that most if not all of the EU are also signed upto.

There is EU Directives on for example mobile telecommunications, but once UK gone they no loner apply but all the other internation rules will apply same for air travel and sea travel.

Really Interested · 29-10-2017 11:19PM

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

No - I was typing mine.

Nate

Well you can see there are international conventions that will apply which the UK has signed upto.

Rain Ascending · 29-10-2017 11:19PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I seriously doubt that British standards in respect to driving tests are more lenient than other member states.

Moreover I doubt it could be applied retrospectively to licenses issued while the UK was still a member.

I think inventing fear stories or Armageddon scenarios without citation to a reputable source is just empty fearmongering.

This raises a number of interesting points. Firstly, that the UK continues to apply relevant standards that meet, say, EU specs is irrelevant. Post Brexit, the UK is a third country as far as the EU is concerned and meeting EU standards does not grant automatic recognition. It has to be renegotiated again.

Secondly I'd be highly surprised if overseas recognition of driving licenses is a permanent thing attached to a license at the time of issuance, as you imply. A UK license remains a UK license and the UK becomes a third country on Brexit and the license is no longer recognized within the EU. That's the simple logic.

Now like everything else, I could be wrong because I've missed some detail -- because your last point is correct: citations are needed. But the general principles outlined above hold unless you can show a contrary citation to say otherwise.

Speaking of citations, the good news is that even in the event of a no-deal Brexit there is still some mutual recognition of licenses, not by EU law, but by the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic.

This is not fear-mongering, but analysis.

Really Interested · 29-10-2017 11:22PM

Rain Ascending wrote: »

This raises a number of interesting points. Firstly, that the UK continues to apply relevant standards that meet, say, EU specs is irrelevant. Post Brexit, the UK is a third country as far as the EU is concerned and meeting EU standards does not grant automatic recognition. It has to be renegotiated again.

Secondly I'd be highly surprised if overseas recognition of driving licenses is a permanent thing attached to a license at the time of issuance, as you imply. A UK license (it's not an EU license by the way, the UK is the issuer) remains a UK license and the UK becomes a third country on Brexit and the license is no longer recognized within the EU. That's the simple logic.

Now like everything else, I could be wrong because I've missed some detail -- because your last point is correct: citations are needed. But the general principles outlined above hold unless you can show a contrary citation to say otherwise.

Speaking of citations, the good news is that even in the event of a no-deal Brexit there is still some mutual recognition of licenses, not by EU law, but by the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic.

This is not fear-mongering, but analysis.

There are 3 conventions 1926, 1949 and 1968. Which deal with the licences of each country that has signed up.

Nody · 29-10-2017 11:24PM

Really Interested wrote: »

Yes that is EU law for EU members, but that does not do away with the international conventions that most if not all of the EU are also signed upto.

There is EU Directives on for example mobile telecommunications, but once UK gone they no loner apply but all the other internation rules will apply same for air travel and sea travel.

And the EU law states that each EU country can choose which non EU licenses they wish to recognise and under what requirements. If UK is not on the list of approved countries then by definition UK licenses is no longer valid. As an example here's Ireland list of recognised countries to get an Irish license which is a legal requirement after living 1 year in Ireland. If UK is not on that list they have to redo the driving test in Ireland and a UK resident stays over a year their license is no longer valid even as international driving license (which those treaties refer to).

If you are not from any of the above countries, (for example The United States), and you hold a national driving licence or an international driving permit from your own country, you may drive in Ireland for the duration of your temporary visit (up to 12 months).

If your stay in Ireland will be more than 12 months you can apply for an Irish driving licence but you will need to go through the full driver licensing procedure. You must first pass a driver theory test , apply for a learner permit, complete a course of Essential Driver Training(EDT) and pass your driving test in Ireland. If you pass your driving test, you can then apply for a full Irish driving licence.

So no deal no driving. If they get an international driving license they are limited in what they can do and how many drivers do you think will have it ready in time for a hard brexit to continue to drive between application time, cost etc.? Personally I can already see the Sun headlines about EU punishing UK drivers over foreigners if it kicks in which is also why this is very much a Brexit related issue.

Really Interested · 29-10-2017 11:28PM

Nody wrote: »

And the EU law states that each EU country can choose which non EU licenses they wish to recognise and under what requirements. If UK is not on the list of approved countries then by definition UK licenses is no longer valid. As an example here's Ireland list of recognised countries to get an Irish license which is a legal requirement after living 1 year in Ireland. If UK is not on that list they have to redo the driving test in Ireland and a UK resident stays over a year their license is no longer valid even as international driving license (which those treaties refer to).

So no deal no driving. If they get an international driving license they are limited in what they can do and how many drivers do you think will have it ready in time for a hard brexit to continue to drive between application time, cost etc.?

Have you even read anything about IDP, EU law first there after the International conventions, UK and most if not all the EU27 have signed up which means they recognise a IDP once it is issued by the relevant body and covers the vehicle you are driving, its extra paperwork, but the law as it stands any driver from UK with IDP can drive in any country that are party of the 1926, 1949 and 1968 conventions.

A IDP can be got within hours.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driver-documents-required-for-international-road-haulage

"International driving permit

The International Driving Permit (IDP) shows the details of national driving licences in other languages. It allows foreign officials to confirm the identity of the permit holder, the driving category entitlements held and their validity periods. The IDP supports, but does not replace, your photocard or paper driving licence. You should still carry your full UK driving licence and passport with you at all times.

IDPs are issued by the major motoring organisations and the Post Office:

read about and apply for an IDP on the AA website
read about and apply for an IDP on the RAC website
read about and apply for an IDP on the Post Office website

You don’t need to be a member of either organisation to apply for an IDP, but you must be resident in the UK, over 18 years of age and have passed a driving test."

Nate--IRL-- · 29-10-2017 11:38PM

Really Interested wrote: »

Well you can see there are international conventions that will apply which the UK has signed upto.

Yes - I had edited the post as soon I saw yours

Nate

Rain Ascending · 29-10-2017 11:55PM

Really Interested wrote: »

There are 3 conventions 1926, 1949 and 1968. Which deal with the licences of each country that has signed up.

And, just to be a pedant, Ireland hasn't signed up to the 1968 convention. According to Wikipedia, the UK abides by this one, but as a non-state party, whatever that means!! Luckily, the provisions of the '49 convention seem adequate to be for basic recognition of at least the International Driving Permits.

Coming back to the Brexit debate, this highlights just how convoluted things will get with even simple issues like this one. There will be a number of unforeseen or ignored consequences, resulting in some nasty surprises. Dealing with them gets infinitely worse in the non-deal Brexit scenario, because they generally will take both sides to sort out.

Walking away from negotiations is not an option.

Really Interested · 30-10-2017 12:06AM

Rain Ascending wrote: »

And, just to be a pedant, Ireland hasn't signed up to the 1968 convention. According to Wikipedia, the UK abides by this one, but as a non-state party, whatever that means!! Luckily, the provisions of the '49 convention seem adequate to be for basic recognition of at least the International Driving Permits.

Coming back to the Brexit debate, this highlights just how convoluted things will get with even simple issues like this one. There will be a number of unforeseen or ignored consequences, resulting in some nasty surprises. Dealing with them gets infinitely worse in the non-deal Brexit scenario, because they generally will take both sides to sort out.

Walking away from negotiations is not an option.

https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetailsV.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-1&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg5&clang=_en

Ireland is a Accession state since 1962

UK ratified in 1957

Reservations
Ireland
"1. Annexes 1 and 2 are excluded from Ireland's application of the Convention.
"2. In relation to annex 6, the number of trailers drawn by a mechanically propelled vehicle may not exceed that permitted under Irish legislation."

I agree it is complex, but the UK has made its choice and due to certain people actully wanting no deal and many of those people are in serious positions i worry it will be no deal.

ambro25 · 30-10-2017 12:56AM

The problem is not the validity of UK licenses in the EU (and reciprocally) post-Brexit by virtue of some treaty or other, for transient visits. It will be their treatment by national authorities and insurers for foreign-qualified residents.

Yes, you can drive a hire car in the UK for a week on a US license. But try relying on your US license to drive once you reside in the UK. Same issue for UK license holders in the EU post-Brexit (and reciprocally).

FWIW, the informal off-the-record advice in Lux atm, is for my wife to swap her UK license stat once we've moved over there (by Jan 18, after spending this past week over there meeting the future boss and team), so she'll benefit from whatever grandfathering effect is implemented in due course, retroactively. Same advice came from the Prefecture over the border. So whichever side of the border we end up living on, her UK license is going. Quick.

Firblog · 30-10-2017 01:28AM

Nody wrote: »

A

So no deal no driving.

Surely you are not correct here, you posted the rules regarding recognition of non EU licences earlier in the thread.

You need to check with the local authorities in your new country what the conditions are for recognising non-EU licences.

Surely going by this, deal or no deal, the driving licences will not be recognised?

ECO_Mental · 30-10-2017 01:46AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

barely and only a recent occurance

But isn't that the whole reason behind the EU.....40 years ago ireland was in the **** a backwards dump! We took the EU for billions and billions built roads improved our infrastructure etc etc. Our standard of living is miles and miles better we trade freely with the rest of Europe, go on holidays with out any hassle.

I really don't see why you think we would be better off than err.....nobody (Switzerland Norway etc still pay into the EU)

Peregrinus · 30-10-2017 02:18AM

The driving licence issue is an example of a much more general problem.

It seems to me that there are actually two different ways in which a “no-deal” Brexit could eventuate.

If there is a Brexit deal, there will be big headline issues (like the exit payment, like continuing reciprocal rights for one anothers’ citizens, like the Irish border) that get dealt with, but there will also be some catch-all clauses that say, basically, for all the matters not explicitly dealt with above things pretty much continue as they are until one side or other changes them. So, mutual recognition of driving licenses will continue until somebody stops it. This will be the Brexit deal counterpart of the UK’s misleadingly-named “Great Repeal Bill” which will provide that the bulk of EU law continues to apply in the UK unless and until the UK changes or disapplies it.

Those catch-all clauses do an enormous amount of work, and if there isn’t going to be a grand deal with catchalls like that, then you need to have a whole host of mini-deals to continue various existing arrangements that will lapse on Brexit.

In other words, you need a no-deal deal, addressing by agreement the consequences of the fact that there is no grand Brexit deal.

So, if the UK (or indeed the EU) decides in, say, March 2018 that there will be no Brexit deal, then both sides can turn their energies and their attentions to a no-deal deal, dealing continuing recognition of driving licenses, landing rights for aircraft, etc, etc, etc - there will be hundreds of issues to be addressed like this.

But if both sides remain focussed on a Brexit deal up to the last minute, and then talks fail or break down, there will not only be no deal, but there will also be no no-deal deal and, yup, hundreds of perfectly satisfactory and uncontroversial arrangements will lapse, with resultant confusion, uncertainty, dislocation, etc.

Rain Ascending · 30-10-2017 03:01AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It seems to me that there are actually two different ways in which a “no-deal” Brexit could eventuate.

If there is a Brexit deal, there will be big headline issues (like the exit payment, like continuing reciprocal rights for one anothers’ citizens, like the Irish border) that get dealt with, but there will also be some catch-all clauses that say, basically, for all the matters not explicitly dealt with above things pretty much continue as they are until one side or other changes them. So, mutual recognition of driving licenses will continue until somebody stops it. This will be the Brexit deal counterpart of the UK’s misleadingly-named “Great Repeal Bill” which will provide that the bulk of EU law continues to apply in the UK unless and until the UK changes or disapplies it.

Those catch-all clauses do an enormous amount of work, and if there isn’t going to be a grand deal with catchalls like that, then you need to have a whole host of mini-deals to continue various existing arrangements that will lapse on Brexit.

In other words, you need a no-deal deal, addressing by agreement the consequences of the fact that there is no grand Brexit deal.

So, if the UK (or indeed the EU) decides in, say, March 2018 that there will be no Brexit deal, then both sides can turn their energies and their attentions to a no-deal deal, dealing continuing recognition of driving licenses, landing rights for aircraft, etc, etc, etc - there will be hundreds of issues to be addressed like this.

Here's my take on this, which may or may not match your perception, but what you term the "grand Brexit deal" can have really only one model, namely something very close to the Norwegian EEA model. The current UK government position appears to be very close to this for the transition period, but rejects it outright as the long-term landing zone for the UK.

Labour, on the other hand, seem to be angling for a long-term Norwegian/EEA-like arrangement, but with modified terms around freedom of movement. I doubt that would fly, but you never know, some fudge might be possible.

Coming back to the current government's position of rejecting the EEA, then what you describe as the "no-deal deal" looks the more likely option. There is talk of a 1000+ page agreement taking the full length of the transition period to negotiate.

It is also clear that many no-deal Brexit proponents are also assuming that a no-deal crash out of the EU will rapidly result in a (perhaps slimmed down) no-deal deal. Quite how this will come about without the EU gently reminding the UK of the outstanding Phase 1 issues that need to be cleared up remains in the realm of fantasy.

solodeogloria · 30-10-2017 07:46AM

Rain Ascending wrote: »

This raises a number of interesting points. Firstly, that the UK continues to apply relevant standards that meet, say, EU specs is irrelevant. Post Brexit, the UK is a third country as far as the EU is concerned and meeting EU standards does not grant automatic recognition. It has to be renegotiated again.

Secondly I'd be highly surprised if overseas recognition of driving licenses is a permanent thing attached to a license at the time of issuance, as you imply. A UK license remains a UK license and the UK becomes a third country on Brexit and the license is no longer recognized within the EU. That's the simple logic.

Now like everything else, I could be wrong because I've missed some detail -- because your last point is correct: citations are needed. But the general principles outlined above hold unless you can show a contrary citation to say otherwise.

Speaking of citations, the good news is that even in the event of a no-deal Brexit there is still some mutual recognition of licenses, not by EU law, but by the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic.

This is not fear-mongering, but analysis.

Good morning!

This isn't analysis but baseless speculation.

A British licence at present is an EU licence. It is issued in the same format as other licences within the EU. Here's an example:

It is also at the discretion of a member state as to which non-EU licences it recognises (on a cursory glance Ireland has a different list to the UK). There can be exchange relationships set up. I doubt two things. Firstly that automatically that this will be revoked because it is in the interests of both parties to see this maintained, or moreover that most countries will actually remove the UK from the list of non-EU licences that can be swapped.

At the moment the trajectory is moving towards a deal between both parties. This is why we should simply keep calm and let the negotiators work and try not to contrive fear stories when there isn't even the slightest shred of evidence that this is a likely outcome.

I know it's Halloween tomorrow but we really should hold off on this type of baseless fearmongering.

The onus is on the one making the claim to back it up.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

mickoneill31 · 30-10-2017 08:00AM

For once, I slightly agree with Solo.

If there's no deal and licenses are a casualty then I'm sure it's up to the individual countries to update their lists. We have an agreement with Australia for license exchange for example, we didn't involve the EU.
Like the page I linked to many posts ago anybody can drive in Ireland with a valid driving license for up to 12 months.

I'll quote the NDLS page as I think many people didn't read it.
"As a visitor to Ireland you can drive on a driving licence from any state outside the EU/EEA for up to a year provided the driving licence is current and valid."
So I think that this covers the truck drivers that the original post alluded to.

And our Gardai barely enforce the laws we do have so having somebody driving on a legal UK license is probably not going to kick off an investigation to see if the driver has been here for > 365 days.

As for the licence exchange program I presume that all that requires is two beaureaucrats sitting down and saying if our citizens can exchange our license for an Irish one we'll let your citizens do the same. It's not Brexit level negotiations here, it's exactly the same level benefit for both recipients.
I'm sure I'm simplifying there. Real world and beaureaucrat world are two different things.

Peregrinus · 30-10-2017 08:35AM

mickoneill31 wrote: »

For once, I slightly agree with Solo.

If there's no deal and licenses are a casualty then I'm sure it's up to the individual countries to update their lists. We have an agreement with Australia for license exchange for example, we didn't involve the EU . . .

Yes. I think the point is that we will have to do it. We will have to make whatever statutory instruments or regulations, or do whatever official acts are necessary, in order to reinstate the recognition of UK licences as a matter of Irish law. And 26 other EU member states will have to do the same. It won't happen just because we want it to happen, or because we recognise that it ought to happen; some Minister will have to make it happen by having the appropriate instrument drawn up, and executed, and published in Iris Oifigiuil, included in official circulars, or whatever.

It's not a big deal, but it is a deal. And it will be one of many, many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of similar steps by each of the EU-27 and by the Commission that have to be taken to keep things running smoothly if there isn't a treaty with an overarching provision of EU law to do this in general terms.

In other words, "no deal" is a lot of work - low level work, perhaps, but a lot of it. It'll have to start well in advance of Brexit day if there is to be any hope of its being done by Brexit day, which I why I think there's a distinction between a "no deal" either adopted as policy or recognised on all sides as likely months ahead of Brexit-day, and a "no deal" which is the result of the UK crashing out when talks break down late in the piece.

Calina · 30-10-2017 08:43AM

For me, the whole question of licences aren't directly important in themselves. It's that they are just one item on a list of things which need to be looked at at some point.

The wider problem for me is that sometimes, you get the impression that the UK doesn't have an overview of all the things which are likely to be affected here. It's very easy to get that impression when you remember, at the outset, David Davis thought the UK would be able to negotiate individual trade deals with individual member states of the EU.

The number of things that just weren't thought about or examined in detail at the outset is just very high. Things like driving licences are tangible to most people who own a car.

What is interesting is that when you raise these thing, people say "well, international driving licence" for driving, or "visas" for freedom of movement. The point they miss is that this introduces as layer of friction. Sure you can go down to your post office and pick up one if no one wants to let you drive on your holidays without one, and you know, if the driving licence system is adequately digitised maybe you can even do it online. But it's one more thing to have to deal with when recently, you didn't have to worry about it at all. I don't have to exchange my Irish licence here any more. This is how frictionless the whole process is getting for being a citizen of an EU member state. The UK is going the other way, arguably because a few of them want to but at no point have I ever had the impression that anyone even thought about these kinds of ramifications during the course of the debate.

Multiply that by tens of thousands of small things which individually sound simple and small and remember that somewhere someone needs to be making a complete list of them. Per various reports this week, UK ministers aren't even reading their own impact reports.

The issue is how many other driving licence type questions are there that someone needs to look at and go, that's okay, that's not okay.

I'm all

murphaph · 30-10-2017 09:01AM

Really Interested wrote: »

Well you can see there are international conventions that will apply which the UK has signed upto.

These conventions cover temporary use of your domestic licence whilst abroad. The person holding a UK licence and living elsewhere in the EU should seriously consider exchanging it for a local licence before Brexit day because it will not be valid as the holder does not live in the UK and is not a temporary visitor to the country they live in.

Think of any 3rd country licence that retains validity after the holder moves to the EU. There aren't any. You generally have 6 months max after arriving to get a local licence. The UK licence will be a third country licence after Brexit so the clever thing to do is apply beforehand for a local one.

It's trivial to agree mutual recognition but if nothing is agreed until everything is agreed...

Brexit discussion thread II

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