Do you think Euthanasia will ever be legal in Ireland?

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 10:28AM

Terrlock wrote: »

....... wrote: »

Do you mean a conscious person is saying "I want to live" and doctors are actually actively killing them?

Or people on machines with no hope? They must be conscious though if they are expressing they dont want to die?

Yes both were conscious and wanted to live and not on machines.

And one survived as his son was a nurse who knew what was going on and made the doctors and nurse stop.

They give a drug which effectively shuts down all the organ in the body and stop giving food and water.

This person is alive enjoying life today because is son intervened. The other person was not so lucky.

That's astonishing .

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 10:42AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I suppose if I was lying in a hospital bed and I was terminally ill and in pain.......... and my loved one(s) came to me saying.......

"Oh my love, seeing you in pain is so awful for us, we are suffering so much watching you like this, would you not consider the option of............."

........ I would feel somewhat pressured by that. Now you can argue it would be poor form for them to do, immoral even and so on and so on. But at the end of the day I would feel some level of pressure from that.

To name but one example. I am all for Euthanisia myself but I can certainly see how people might feel pressure to use it.

Not sure how medical insurance might work with it too for example. If keeping someone alive is very costly in certain circumstances, and them taking the assisted death route much cheaper........ could they through policy or premiums word contracts in such a way that in some situations they would withhold paying out on the policy if the cheaper "right to die" option were not taken?

That I know admittedly little about, but my imagination runs riot on it. But I suspect that I as a medical insurance consumer might happily take a cheaper policy if it stipulated that a certain level of ongoing pain medication would negate my contract. And I would take the cheaper policy in the knowledge that, were I to reach that level of ongoing pain, I am someone who would likely choose death instead of trying to mediate it.

You can find many news articles on the subject, however is is a link to a very interesting report from a Medical Professional

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070710/

One qoute from the article is a little startling

"900 people annually are administered lethal substances without having given explicit consent"

....... · 27-10-2017 10:46AM

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Terrlock · 27-10-2017 10:56AM

....... wrote: »

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Your right it is Murder but not deemed that way as it's worded as a treatment.

I'm not sure people realise how much this actually happens as I have talked with numerous people who report the same thing.

Imagine a family being told your dad has only a few hours to live. They are brought in and told to give the final goodbyes and all of that.

The go in, they all talking with him, give their goodbyes. Then one of his son's arrives at the hospital, goes into the room takes a quick look at his chart and shouts there killing him.

He then proceeds to get the nurses and I won't repeat what he said to them but his actions saved his fathers life.

He is alive today years later living a full life. He has medical issues but nothing he can't live with and is very happy.

GritBiscuit · 27-10-2017 11:00AM

Terrlock wrote: »

Your right it is Murder but not deemed that way as it's worded as a treatment.

I'm struggling to think of any common medical practice that would be deemed legal treatment which would end the life of a patient that would otherwise live for years.

If true, I presume the family in question reported this to the Gardaí and sought legal advice or at the very least an investigation by the medical council?

....... · 27-10-2017 11:02AM

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Terrlock · 27-10-2017 11:08AM

....... wrote: »

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Your right they should, I certainly would persue it to the very end.

They haven't that I'm aware of and I don't know difficult it would be too persue legally or if the infact they have had an investigation into it and it came to some sort of private agreement the haven't shared with the rest of us.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 11:11AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I suppose if I was lying in a hospital bed and I was terminally ill and in pain.......... and my loved one(s) came to me saying.......

"Oh my love, seeing you in pain is so awful for us, we are suffering so much watching you like this, would you not consider the option of............."

........ I would feel somewhat pressured by that. Now you can argue it would be poor form for them to do, immoral even and so on and so on. But at the end of the day I would feel some level of pressure from that.

To name but one example. I am all for Euthanisia myself but I can certainly see how people might feel pressure to use it.

Not sure how medical insurance might work with it too for example. If keeping someone alive is very costly in certain circumstances, and them taking the assisted death route much cheaper........ could they through policy or premiums word contracts in such a way that in some situations they would withhold paying out on the policy if the cheaper "right to die" option were not taken?

That I know admittedly little about, but my imagination runs riot on it. But I suspect that I as a medical insurance consumer might happily take a cheaper policy if it stipulated that a certain level of ongoing pain medication would negate my contract. And I would take the cheaper policy in the knowledge that, were I to reach that level of ongoing pain, I am someone who would likely choose death instead of trying to mediate it.

But from what I saw, it's not done like that in other countries. There are checks in place to make sure it is the individual's choice. Like I said before, they have to be of sound mind and they have to be able to take the concoction themselves. I don't know about other countries, but from what I saw I Switzerland, nobody administers it to you. If you don't pass the psychological assessment part, you don't get it done and if you can't physically lift the glass to take the drink, you don't get it done.

LadyMacBeth_ · 27-10-2017 11:14AM

I think it will be a long time before it is legal in Ireland. I fully support euthanasia if it is implemented with stringent rules. I think for terminal illnesses it should definitely be an option for people, not to take the ''strain'' off the medical system though, but for the people who are suffering with the illness. I have a progressive degenerative disease myself and I can see that there could come a time in the future when I have very poor quality of life and might want to just end things.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 11:15AM

Terrlock wrote: »

Your right they should, I certainly would persue it to the very end.

They haven't that I'm aware of and I don't know difficult it would be too persue legally or if the infact they have had an investigation into it and it came to some sort of private agreement the haven't shared with the rest of us.

But the other person who survived, can they not report what they and their son know to the Gardaí? Wasn't Harold Shipman Killing off old people and he went to prison for it?

Is it the morphine driver you're talking about?

....... · 27-10-2017 11:15AM

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Terrlock · 27-10-2017 11:23AM

I'm not going to go into this any further as it's a relative. I have urged them strongly to persue it but they think they wouldn't get anywhere with it.

Liverpool care path does happen in Ireland, if people think it doesn't then do some research into it.

They can do it and legally get away with it.

There isn't much we can do to persue it. I have seen it happen twice as I have stated.

Have a read of the following if you are interested in this.

http://www.ncaop.ie/publications/research/reports/103_EOL_Care_Report.pdf

https://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/healthandchildren/health2014/Vol-2-complete-part-E.pdf

http://www.cardi.ie/publications/reviewofliverpoolcarepathwayfordyingpatients

I'm not sure what the difference is between LCP and Euthanasia.

And if Euthansia was legalised how many more people would be euthanised without concent just like with LCP.

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 11:25AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

But the other person who survived, can they not report what they and their son know to the Gardaí? Wasn't Harold Shipman Killing off old people and he went to prison for it?

Is it the morphine driver you're talking about?

I completely agree, I really would like them to persue it unfortunetly they won't or didn't inform me that they had.

....... · 27-10-2017 11:36AM

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Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 11:45AM

Terrlock wrote: »

I'm not going to go into this any further as it's a relative. I have urged them strongly to persue it but they think they wouldn't get anywhere with it.

Liverpool care path does happen in Ireland, if people think it doesn't then do some research into it.

They can do it and legally get away with it.

There isn't much we can do to persue it. I have seen it happen twice as I have stated.

Have a read of the following if you are interested in this.

http://www.ncaop.ie/publications/research/reports/103_EOL_Care_Report.pdf

https://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/healthandchildren/health2014/Vol-2-complete-part-E.pdf

http://www.cardi.ie/publications/reviewofliverpoolcarepathwayfordyingpatients

I'm not sure what the difference is between LCP and Euthanasia.

And if Euthansia was legalised how many more people would be euthanised without concent just like with LCP.

The difference between euthanasia and what's done in palliative care, is that YOU make the decision. You end your life. Nobody else. If you are euthanasied without consent that is murder.

I haven't experienced someone in the final stages of life, but I have heard that things are done to hurry things along where death is coming anyway. I don't see an issue with that. But if someone is conscious and saying no, as in the example you gave, that is murder and should be reported.

Sorry for your loss.

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 11:49AM

....... wrote: »

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I think most people are unaware.

I mean how would you know if you were not a medical professional?

If you were told someone is dying and to say final goodbye's.

How would you know?

Ever think about how they can say someone will be gone in the next few hours or days. Most people would put it down to their underlying health issues, such as kidney failure which was in my uncles case or cancer which was in another persons case.

However the actual cause of treatment was using a drug combined with removing food and water. on a chart this is just worded as removal of treatment and administration of a drug to make them comfortable.

Again you don't have to look far to get some research on it

http://noliverpoolcarepathway.com/drugs-drugs-and-more-drugs/drugs-used-for-those-deemed-dying/

If you think this is crazy or something that doesn't happen then it doesn't hurt to at least research the topic.

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 11:53AM

Terrlock wrote: »

....... wrote: »

Do you mean a conscious person is saying "I want to live" and doctors are actually actively killing them?

Or people on machines with no hope? They must be conscious though if they are expressing they dont want to die?

Yes both were conscious and wanted to live and not on machines.

And one survived as his son was a nurse who knew what was going on and made the doctors and nurse stop.

They give a drug which effectively shuts down all the organ in the body and stop giving food and water.

This person is alive enjoying life today because is son intervened. The other person was not so lucky.

That's possibly one of the most disturbing accounts of an event that happened in a hospital.
Am I right to take it that these nurses and doctors are still working ?

GritBiscuit · 27-10-2017 12:02PM

Terrlock wrote:

Your right they should, I certainly would persue it to the very end.

So do that then.

There's more than enough public interest in such a heinous practice to warrant locus standi.

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 12:05PM

corner of hells wrote: »

That's possibly one of the most disturbing accounts of an event that happened in a hospital.
Am I right to take it that these nurses and doctors are still working ?

That happened in a Dublin Based hospital in 2012 so I'd imagine they would be still working.

The other one happend in 2011 again in a dublin based hospital and a close friend had to adopt the kids of the mother who passed away as a result.

I hope the practice has been discontinued but I always watch out for it now and from talking to other people about the topic I have come to the conclusion that it's more common then people realise.

corner of hells · 27-10-2017 12:14PM

Terrlock wrote: »

corner of hells wrote: »

That's possibly one of the most disturbing accounts of an event that happened in a hospital.
Am I right to take it that these nurses and doctors are still working ?

That happened in a Dublin Based hospital in 2012 so I'd imagine they would be still working.

The other one happend in 2011 again in a dublin based hospital and a close friend had to adopt the kids of the mother who passed away as a result.

I hope the practice has been discontinued but I always watch out for it now and from talking to other people about the topic I have come to the conclusion that it's more common then people realise.

I've a parent under pallative care at moment with a huge amount of pain management going on.
There's a working relationship between ourselves , her GP , a consultant and a palliative care team with all options having being explained to us including the various medications in use at the moment and those to become available.
There's no mention anywhere of any medication to shut down organs , there are variables to come into place to control increase in pain ,agitation , nausea and restlessness to name but a few.
There's also included a withrawal of administration of some medications.

I don't doubt what you say but it's astonishing.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 12:16PM

Terrlock wrote: »

I think most people are unaware.

I mean how would you know if you were not a medical professional?

If you were told someone is dying and to say final goodbye's.

How would you know?

I would think you would know by the person themselves? You consult with the doctor, they tell you nothing more can be done we keep them comfortable. That, I would think is standard. In your cases, both people were conscious and said no, but treatment was removed anyway? Surely, a loved one would ask why they stopped treatment?

nozzferrahhtoo · 27-10-2017 12:16PM

Terrlock wrote: »

"900 people annually are administered lethal substances without having given explicit consent"

While it is unclear what he means by "explicit consent" here...... for example if before I went to the hospital I wrote something about my wishes to die if my quality of life was about to be reduced and this was found is that "explicit" consent.......... I have no doubt at all that this is happening.

But I have little doubt that it is happening in countries with and also those WITHOUT legal and formal practices of Euthanasia. I would say the "problem" is a problem either way.

In fact where a formal and legal procedure in place for a legal right to die, this problem could even be potentially LESSENED. Because before anything could be administered a formal procedure must be followed. So those doing so WITHOUT following said procedure would surely be easier to detect?

I think people use cases of it been done as pressure, or without consent on the sly, as arguments against a legal right to die, and legal Euthanaisa. I myself A) do not see it as a valid argument against it and

as I said I see potential ways where it is legal to LESSEN the impact of such issues that would not be available otherwise.

Terrlock · 27-10-2017 12:24PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

While it is unclear what he means by "explicit consent" here...... for example if before I went to the hospital I wrote something about my wishes to die if my quality of life was about to be reduced and this was found is that "explicit" consent.......... I have no doubt at all that this is happening.

But I have little doubt that it is happening in countries with and also those WITHOUT legal and formal practices of Euthanasia. I would say the "problem" is a problem either way.

In fact where a formal and legal procedure in place for a legal right to die, this problem could even be potentially LESSENED. Because before anything could be administered a formal procedure must be followed. So those doing so WITHOUT following said procedure would surely be easier to detect?

I think people use cases of it been done as pressure, or without consent on the sly, as arguments against a legal right to die, and legal Euthanaisa. I myself A) do not see it as a valid argument against it and as I said I see potential ways where it is legal to LESSEN the impact of such issues that would not be available otherwise.

Well there are some experts in Euthansia who claim as many as 1 in 5 euthenised patients are pressured into it.

I don't think it's a invalid argument I think it's something that needs to be considered if it's ever to be introduced and what safe guard can be put in place and actually followed to prevent such a thing from occuring.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-10-2017 12:35PM

Terrlock wrote: »

Well there are some experts in Euthansia who claim as many as 1 in 5 euthenised patients are pressured into it.

.

That's not entirely true. They can't say for sure whether the rise in euthanasia is down to family pressure. And it's not family pressure as in...do it do it now. It can be presented as a choice by a family member to the patient. Or it can be the patient trying to VOLUNTARILY make things easier on the family, depending on the diagnosis influencing their decision.

From a quick Google I found the article you are referring and it is Holland based and they cannot.say for sure whether it is the case that family pressure is a contributing factor. But in all cases it has to be a voluntary decision by the patient and they are checked by doctors to make sure this is the case.

nozzferrahhtoo · 27-10-2017 12:39PM

Terrlock wrote: »

Well there are some experts in Euthansia who claim as many as 1 in 5 euthenised patients are pressured into it.

I myself tend to be more impressed by the evidence upon which they claim things, rather than that they are experts and they are claiming it. "Experts" claim many things that turn out to be patent nonsense. Let us see the basis for the claim rather than who is making it.

Terrlock wrote: »

I don't think it's a invalid argument I think it's something that needs to be considered

I think we agree but you think we disagree because you think the first part of your sentence is a negation of the second. It is not.

It MUST be considered. It HAS to be considered. I 100% agree.

But it is an argument about HOW to implement a Right To Die and standard of Euthanasia. It is not a valid argument at all AGAINST doing so however.

That is what I mean when I say it is not a valid argument. If I gave any impression that by invalid I mean it has not utility or application anywhere at all.... then I apologize for that failure in communication.

I always check any argument given to see if it an argument AGAINST doing X or an argument for doing X the right way. In this case it is the latter.

....... · 27-10-2017 12:50PM

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Hotblack Desiato · 27-10-2017 01:31PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Why on Earth would the authorities want to resus such a person? for what purpose?

Because catholic Ireland :rolleyes:

Same reason a rotting corpse was kept "alive" just because she was pregnant.

seamus · 27-10-2017 01:51PM

My opinion on euthanasia is likely a lot more liberal than most people's.

One way or another we're all checking out. Whether that's today, tomorrow, or in fifty years, nobody escapes. Every day that you choose to stay alive, you are choosing to put off death for another day, while you can.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter when you die. There's no reason why someone should have to live a long life before they die. Or to have a terminal illness. You're going one way or another.

So, yes, I would be of the opinion that any adult of sound mind who chooses to check out, should be permitted to do so, regardless of age or illness.

With appropriate protections in place, of course - perhaps a jury system where the person satisfies that jury that their decision is genuine, well-considered and with the full understanding of the gravity of it. The aim is not to balance whether someone's life should or shouldn't continue, just whether or not they have appropriately consented.

Ireland will eventually legalise assisted dying, but we definitely won't jump first. It will be widely available in Europe before we make it available in very restricted circumstances.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-10-2017 01:53PM

RustyNut wrote: »

I certainty hope the option is legally available to me and mine should the need or desire ever come up but I fear it will be like abortion, only available to those with the resources to travel abroad.

It's worse than that. There is a constitutional right to travel for an abortion. With euthanasia, Gardai have threatened family / friends that if they travel with the person or assist in any way, they are at risk of criminal charges. That doesn't appear legal to me under the ECHR, but nobody wants to be the test case and in the meantime these threats are having the desired effect of keeping Ireland that little bit more catholic for a while longer. Sure who cares about the suffering and misery this causes, not those in positions of power anyway.

....... · 27-10-2017 02:12PM

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Do you think Euthanasia will ever be legal in Ireland?

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