Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781

b.gud · 24-10-2017 04:20PM

timaru89 wrote: »

When is the squad announcement?

Around lunch time

Former Former · 24-10-2017 04:23PM

timaru89 wrote: »

When is the squad announcement?

Thursday, apparently.

Buer · 24-10-2017 04:24PM

wp_rathead wrote: »

Aki has been playing 13 because Connacht's other 13s simply aren't good enough while we have a few decent 12s in Farrell and Ronaldson (and Robb when available)

That's something I don't understand. Tom Farrell is an out and out 13. Even for Connacht, he only started playing 12 in the last few weeks. He played 13 in all of his Connacht appearances before then.

molloyjh · 24-10-2017 04:37PM

Former Former wrote: »

Thursday, apparently.

Huh, I expected it to be held off until Monday or Tuesday to allow a few guys a chance to get some game time. It'll be very interesting to see who is selected so.

Wegians89 · 24-10-2017 05:02PM

Buer wrote: »

That's something I don't understand. Tom Farrell is an out and out 13. Even for Connacht, he only started playing 12 in the last few weeks. He played 13 in all of his Connacht appearances before then.

There's two reasons I feel they're going with Farrell 12 bundee 13. One Is Farrell isn't targeted as much as bundee so has more space at 12 then bundee would, and hence bundee has more space at 13 then he would have 12.
The other side is Farrell isn't the best defensively and having bundee defend the 13 channel is very important. Connachts defence has improved since this change was made

Harry FM · 24-10-2017 09:15PM

connachta wrote: »

maybe but it's Keane masterplan. Moving Griffin inside is a clear sign Bundee is doing the other way.
And I think he's right on the Connacht POV Aki needs space.
For Ireland, I'm neutral whether he has be 12 or 13 !

Aki and Henshaw played at 12 and 13 respectively together for 2 seasons at Connacht. They're our 2 best currently fit centres and they're a proven partnership. Both excellent defenders and both have great passing and kicking games. It's a no-brainer.

thomond2006 · 25-10-2017 02:42PM

So with JVDF out I imagine TOD or Leavy will step up.

Former Former · 25-10-2017 03:06PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

So with JVDF out I imagine TOD or Leavy will step up.

TOD has been in really good form, but Leavy would seem to be the preferred option for Joe.

Call em both up I suppose.

irishbucsfan · 25-10-2017 03:08PM

Yeah I'd expect both to be called up.

Massive shame, feel bad for JvDF. Probably form back row in the country.

Buer · 25-10-2017 03:10PM

With VDF ruled out, I would guess at Stander, SOB, POM and Ruddock wearing 20.

AbusesToilets · 25-10-2017 04:55PM

Buer wrote: »

With VDF ruled out, I would guess at Stander, SOB, POM and Ruddock wearing 20.

What has POM done to put him ahead of Ruddock? He's by far the best 6 playing at the moment. Our best backrow, with JDF out, is Ruddock, SOB and Conan.

25-10-2017 05:00PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What has POM done to put him ahead of Ruddock? He's by far the best 6 playing at the moment. Our best backrow, with JDF out, is Ruddock, SOB and Conan.

Captaining the Lions must count for something

Former Former · 25-10-2017 05:04PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What has POM done to put him ahead of Ruddock? He's by far the best 6 playing at the moment. Our best backrow, with JDF out, is Ruddock, SOB and Conan.

Team has never been picked entirely on current form. Ruddock is playing great stuff and finished last season really well too, but POM is by far the more proven player at international level.

I'd give Ruddock the 20 jersey against SA, a start against Fiji and pick the best man to start against Argentina.

AbusesToilets · 25-10-2017 05:08PM

Former Former wrote: »

Team has never been picked entirely on current form. Ruddock is playing great stuff and finished last season really well too, but POM is by far the more proven player at international level.

I'd give Ruddock the 20 jersey against SA, a start against Fiji and pick the best man to start against Argentina.

Ruddock has plenty of pedigree playing at the highest level, that's a nonsense reason to not pick a player in great form.

Captaining the Lions must count for something

Does that mean getting dropped out of the 23 should count for something too? Can't go living on singular past performances.

25-10-2017 05:11PM

Very hard to know what to do with the backrow at the moment. SOB just needs to prove fitness and he starts.

VDF to my mind was second name down after SOB but obviously he won't be available now. Ruddock, POM and Stander all have a battle on their hands to get into the starting team. Conan and Leavy will be thereabouts also. TOD deserves to be in the mix. He's down the pecking order despite being the best of the bunch with Munster so far this season.

We really need to give another 10 a good bit of time this window also. I'd start Sexton against South Africa and give two alternates a run against Fiji. Let the winner of that tussle start against Argentina with Sexton on the bench.

25-10-2017 05:15PM

VdF being out simplifies things a bit, along with Heaslip obviously. I can't see it being anything but POM/SOB/Stander. None of the three have shown very much this season so need them to raise their game.

Former Former · 25-10-2017 05:21PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ruddock has plenty of pedigree playing at the highest level, that's a nonsense reason to not pick a player in great form.

I didn't say he didn't, I said:

POM is by far the more proven player at international level

which is absolutely and unarguably true.

You can't pick purely on current form and Joe Schmidt has never done so. I feel like this has been discussed here before.

AbusesToilets · 25-10-2017 05:30PM

Former Former wrote: »

I didn't say he didn't, I said:

which is absolutely and unarguably true.

Which amounts to what, exactly? Ruddock has played well at international level too. Is it a game of top trumps, POM has more caps, so he wins?

Ruddock is playing better, and has been for the better part of the last two seasons. That's all that should matter.

Jump_In_Jack · 25-10-2017 05:43PM

Does anyone know what players are on Central contracts, and when they are falling due to expire?

From a bit of searching on the web I think the below is accurate, but I have seen specious comments here and there that Jack McGrath and Iain Henderson may also be on contracts, though I could only find mention on contracts signed with their provinces.
Also couldn't find any news of Andrew Trimble's current contract, other than a vague mention in an article that he is signed up for Ulster to June 2019.
Tadhg Furlong is surely due a Central Contract when his current contract expires in June 2018.
I have found a mention on a forum that there is no fixed criteria but that players generally need a certain number of caps to be given a Central Contract (around 30), and most importantly must be a starter, though Cian Healy getting a Central Contract over Jack McGrath is confusing.

June 2017
Donnacha Ryan - Expired
Andrew Trimble - Expired. Extension or conversion to Ulster contract?

June 2018
Rob Kearney
Tommy Bowe
Jared Payne
Peter O'Mahony
Rory Best

Post World Cup 2019
Keith Earls
Robbie Henshaw
Johnny Sexton
Conor Murray
Jamie Heaslip
Sean O'Brien
Cian Healy

June 2020
Devin Toner

Could the below be the future succession plans for the Central Contracts?
15 Kearney => Carbery?/O'Halloran?
14 Bowe => Stockdale?
13 Payne => Ringrose?/Aki?
12 Henshaw
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip => Stander/Conan?
7 O'Brien
6 O'Mahony
5 Toner
4 => Henderson
3 => Furlong
2 Best
1 Healy => McGrath?

Buer · 25-10-2017 05:47PM

If you think that multiple games against top tier test opposition don't count hugely you're going to be disappointed.

Ruddock is playing brilliantly and fully deserves a run. If he gets the nod, I'd be delighted for him. He he has nowhere near the top level test experience that POM has. Ruddock has 3 starts against top level test opposition and I suspect that's going to be a factor.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 25-10-2017 06:07PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What has POM done to put him ahead of Ruddock? He's by far the best 6 playing at the moment. Our best backrow, with JDF out, is Ruddock, SOB and Conan.

POM is the best lineout forward in the back row we have which may be relevant. That said Ruddock is the second best so it's not the same as any other competition that POM would face.

Wegians89 · 25-10-2017 06:10PM

Pom has to start for me, especially if there's any doubts of best starting, Considering how little he's played. But just think of the impact ruddock could bring off the bench. Great options all round

Former Former · 25-10-2017 06:11PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I have found a mention on a forum that there is no fixed criteria but that players generally need a certain number of caps to be given a Central Contract (around 30), and most importantly must be a starter, though Cian Healy getting a Central Contract over Jack McGrath is confusing.

Definitely no fixed criteria; Payne got his central contract after only a handful of caps, but you would need to be a certain starter (or almost certain) to be in consideration.

Healy was first choice when he got his, but was constantly injured and overtaken quickly by McGrath.

Erik Shin · 25-10-2017 06:25PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Which amounts to what, exactly? Ruddock has played well at international level too. Is it a game of top trumps, POM has more caps, so he wins?

Ruddock is playing better, and has been for the better part of the last two seasons. That's all that should matter.

But he hasn't, and that will be borne out by Joe's selection #InJoeWeTrust

Former Former · 25-10-2017 06:53PM

Erik Shin wrote: »

But he hasn't, and that will be borne out by Joe's selection #InJoeWeTrust

Just quoting for posterity when Kearney is named vs South Africa

Erik Shin · 25-10-2017 06:57PM

Former Former wrote: »

Just quoting

I wouldn't normally have an issue with Joe's selections, I do have an issue with the stodgy play at times... personally why, personally, I'd like to see Aki definitely get 2 games next month

stephen_n · 25-10-2017 07:02PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Could the below be the future succession plans for the Central Contracts?
15 Kearney => Carbery?/O'Halloran?
14 Bowe => Stockdale?
13 Payne => Ringrose?/Aki?
12 Henshaw
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip => Stander/Conan?
7 O'Brien
6 O'Mahony
5 Toner
4 => Henderson
3 => Furlong
2 Best
1 Healy => McGrath?

It would seem like central contacts are being slowly phased out, so it's hard to say if any of those successions will happen.

The Rape of Lucretia · 25-10-2017 07:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Captaining the Lions must count for something

Counts for zip I would say. Its all about player ability, fitness, form, previous implementation of System-Joe, and the blend of the back row. What Warren thought of his leadership ability will not be part of Joe's evaluation.

Jump_In_Jack · 25-10-2017 07:38PM

stephen_n wrote: »

It would seem like central contacts are being slowly phased out, so it's hard to say if any of those successions will happen.

I'm curious, what makes you say that they are being phased out?
Is it to do with Zebo leaving?
I don't think they will be phased out, as recently as the past six months or so Heaslip was given one.

I forgot to add Andrew Conway into the mix for fullback,
And Seán Cronin possibly to succeed Best before the next World Cup.
Anyone else I'm forgetting?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 25-10-2017 09:12PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I'm curious, what makes you say that they are being phased out?
Is it to do with Zebo leaving?
I don't think they will be phased out, as recently as the past six months or so Heaslip was given one.

I forgot to add Andrew Conway into the mix for fullback,
And Seán Cronin possibly to succeed Best before the next World Cup.
Anyone else I'm forgetting?

In the last 6 or 7 years it's gone from 25ish central contracts to fifteenish.

Donnacha Ryan and Simon Zebo leaving in successive years after being supposedly offered provincial contracts seems to suggest something. It may be that the players just shy of central contracts are the ones who are most vulnerable to being poached.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Comments

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781