Eircode - Why did they bother?

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 07:42PM

PDVerse wrote: »

Except you aren't, you're completely disingenuous. I should have checked out your climate change denial posts before bothering to engage. Best of luck with your continuing struggles with reality, I won't be engaging with you further.

Well that's convenient innit ?
There are no accurate numbers or you would have brandished them a lot earlier.
I am no climate denier by the way, but I like to practice healthy criticism, you are just defensive because you only have the bouncy markers website info.

Label and dismiss, the easy way to shut down debate.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 07:47PM

seamus wrote: »

To paraphrase An Post, the idea of a sequential numbering system or hierarchical system where your street gets a number, is a 20th century solution. When people didn't have GPS systems to guide them and when a postman on a route could reasonably remember the location of his streets by their postcode, therefore using the postcode for navigation and route plotting. This is not necessary any more.

Eircode is not perfect. I have qualms about the implementation, but as time has gone on, a lot of them have been answered. Eircode is a system of codes for identifying postal addresses - i.e. places where people live or work. And it does that just fine.
It is not necessary that someone should be capable of knowing the rough location of a property by looking at its code.
It's not necessary that I should know any of my neighbour's codes, nor be able to determine what they are in my head.
Your shed, or your silage tank or the tree in the field at the front of your house, do not need eircodes. They are not postal addresses.
It is not necessary that companies "agreed" to use eircode before it was made live.

My experience in Dublin is that virtually all businesses that are involved in delivering stuff in any capacity, are using eircodes. From couriers, to fast food to taxis.

Can we not decide "what is necessary" also, since we all contributed to the budget ?
It all boils down to business again.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 08:09PM

flaneur wrote: »

I’d add actually that in France in rural areas you get the same problem as you do in Ireland and their postal codes don’t solve it.

Mme. DUPONT Marie
Perdu-sur-Lac
99273

Which is just a name and nearby tiny village and the post code just tells you a codified version of the department and village.

In most cases, continental and US postal codes were just for speed of scanning OCR or keying mail, or even just manually speed reading and flinging it into pigeon holes on sorting frames in older sorting systems.

I would suspect you’ll see much more recognition of Eircode as utility companies and others start printing it on bills and statements. That’s the bulk of Irish mail.

As for finding things by code by searching the postal code. Ireland has pretty easy and logical telephone area codes (unlike a lot of countries). So if you want to google Flowers + 066 you’ll typically find them in North Kerry.

You could search Flowers D07 or T23 and you’ll also get fairly reasonable areas. The issue is in low population areas the codes seem to cover much bigger areas, but unlike France we tend to define areas by county and not town/village so much.

A lot of French addresses would be like if we wrote::

John Murphy
Ballydehob
T99 1233

And had no idea that was in County Cork.
In some ways Irish addresses are more human readable than most continental ones as they relate the town to a county.

A lot of continental addresses just give you obscure town + code and it is not immediately obvious you’re looking at a suburb of Paris or Frankfurt.

Not really.
We always write down the name of the town as well as the postcode in France.
I used to live
33 Avenue M..... S..........
69100 Villeurbanne

Usually we'd print the name of the town in capitals.

My sister lives in a smaller place, the address ends :
26740 St Marcel-Les-Sauzet

the postcode includes a slightly wider area, so we write the name of the village as well as 26740

Also Flaneur, can I just mention that we learn the departements numbers in primary school, so we are pretty familiar with however much we remember by the time we're adults. I'm useless at memorizing digits, so I didn't remember much from these years, but straightaway that helped being familiar with all the departements surrounding the Lyon area and then the odd other ones that for some reason lingered in my memory. The same numbers were on car number plates for years too, so when we saw a 13 on the motorway, even as kids we knew they were "Marseillais", or 98s or thereabouts were "Parigots". Helps when you are trying to locate something with postal code as an adult.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 23-10-2017 08:17PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Not really.
We always write down the name of the town as well as the postcode in France.
I used to live
33 Avenue M..... S..........
69100 Villeurbanne

Usually we'd print the name of the town in capitals.

My sister lives in a smaller place, the address ends :
26740 St Marcel-Les-Sauzet

the postcode includes a slightly wider area, so we write the name of the village as well as 26740

And do you write
26740 St Marcel-Les-Sauzet
Then take the road past the bridge
Small lane two miles later
Take second left on the lane
Third house on the right?

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 08:29PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There's a lot of deflection on this thread. It's not my phones fault that the Eircode isn't suitable for sat navs. Using a second phone isn't a solution.

I love the idea of a proper post code for the country but Eircode isn't fit for purpose. How FG oked this setup is beyond me. The awarding of the contract & the obscene amount of taxpayers money pumped into a private company stinks of Lowryism IMO The contract was for 18 million yet the government handed over 38 million & we don't even own it! We pay a private company to come up with Eircode yet they own it. They sell the license & make a profit. How does this happen in Ireland?

I'm not very much into politics, so I don't even look at that aspect, but I come from pretty much the same place, in the sense that my disappointment in it is proportional to the expectations I had of it, as a private individual.

Simply put, I thought, since this was campaigned and budgeted for as a public service project, that individuals as well as businesses would be catered for, and that it would be more ... publicly owned. (my idea of ownership is more ideological than financial, but that's just me)

I feel cheated that we financed a business project, based on individual Irish citizens' addresses.
Yes, we do get the benefits of easier deliveries, and possibly all emergency services will end up using it as default, but beyond that we get nothing really.

Of course all the aspects that I think on a personal level would be useful can be dismissed if the rationale was first and foremost to facilitate business. Personal use, ownership ? pah ! what for ?

I just don't think it's right, and when every working citizen has an input in such projects, it's only right that their point of view should be considered.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 08:43PM

Jaylah Low Kidnapper wrote: »

And do you write
26740 St Marcel-Les-Sauzet
Then take the road past the bridge
Small lane two miles later
Take second left on the lane
Third house on the right?

Nope, the postman does a fine job of delivering the mail without all that, just like my postman did a very good job of delivering parcels to me for years without Eircode.

Look, it's easy to gang up, label, and ridicule, it certainly makes it more convincing for other viewers to accept your views unquestionably.
But I am ready to adopt and try out everything that is on offer, and more often than not, I'm very happy with innovations.
I tried Parcel Motel, that was great, but then An Post came up with Address Pal, which suits me much better, and you can check my happy contributions to the Address Pal thread. On top of being efficient and practical, it helps keep my local post office running, so it's even better.
I got the AnPost parcel box, can't remember what it's called, where the postman scans a barcode, and it can hold your parcels nice and dry for when you come back home. It's brilliant, and again, please search on boards for the thread where I praise this innovation.

In the case of Eircode, with the experience of using French postal codes before, and enjoying all their little uses in my every day life back in France, I am disappointed, and I don't think it's outrageous and contrary to speak my mind about it.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 23-10-2017 08:55PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Nope, the postman does a fine job of delivering the mail without all that, just like my postman did a very good job of delivering parcels to me for years without Eircode.

Look, it's easy to gang up, label, and ridicule, it certainly makes it more convincing for other viewers to accept your views unquestionably.
But I am ready to adopt and try out everything that is on offer, and more often than not, I'm very happy with innovations.
I tried Parcel Motel, that was great, but then An Post came up with Address Pal, which suits me much better, and you can check my happy contributions to the Address Pal thread. On top of being efficient and practical, it helps keep my local post office running, so it's even better.
I got the AnPost parcel box, can't remember what it's called, where the postman scans a barcode, and it can hold your parcels nice and dry for when you come back home. It's brilliant, and again, please search on boards for the thread where I praise this innovation.

In the case of Eircode, with the experience of using French postal codes before, and enjoying all their little uses in my every day life back in France, I am disappointed, and I don't think it's outrageous and contrary to speak my mind about it.

You see, eircode is not for the postman either. Never was to be and never will be. The postman knows his route. This is for every other delivery. The guy from Dublin who doesn't know the rural area, the courier, the repairman etc. The Franch code won't get them to the rural premises in France.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 09:25PM

Jaylah Low Kidnapper wrote: »

You see, eircode is not for the postman either. Never was to be and never will be. The postman knows his route. This is for every other delivery. The guy from Dublin who doesn't know the rural area, the courier, the repairman etc. The French code won't get them to the rural premises in France.

I get that, and this is in a nutshell what I'm so upset about, and why I think the uptake has not been what it really should have been after 2 years (remember, my experience of uptake is completely different from yours, and just as valid, since we do not have official uptake statistics).

I thought Eircodes were designed for people, I feel we were led to believe that, we were sold the idea on that basis imo.

On the French postcodes, how else do you think French people have things delivered in rural areas ? The name of the area, hamlet, village, lieu-dit if necessary, and the postcode. Additional details if required, of course.
I suppose they could probably do with something additional expressly for commercial deliveries alright, like Eircode. But they already have all the little benefits I previously mentioned (and that were so haughtily dismissed) from the official postal code.
We didn't. We were going from nothing to... just the thing for commercial deliveries.
We could have gone from nothing to something that suited individuals as well as business, in other words from nothing to the full shebang, it would probably have been less profitable though.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 23-10-2017 09:30PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I get that, and this is in a nutshell what I'm so upset about, and why I think the uptake has not been what it really should have been after 2 years (remember, my experience of uptake is completely different from yours, and just as valid, since we do not have official uptake statistics).

I thought Eircodes were designed for people, I feel we were led to believe that, we were sold the idea on that basis imo.

On the French postcodes, how else do you think French people have things delivered in rural areas ? The name of the area, hamlet, village, lieu-dit if necessary, and the postcode. Additional details if required, of course.
I suppose they could probably do with something additional expressly for commercial deliveries alright, like Eircode. But they already have all the little benefits I previously mentioned (and that were so haughtily dismissed) from the official postal code.
We didn't. We were going from nothing to... just the thing for commercial deliveries.
We could have gone from nothing to something that suited individuals as well as business, in other words from nothing to the full shebang, it would probably have been less profitable though.

You've lost me.

Good luck \out.

grogi · 23-10-2017 09:31PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I feel cheated that we financed a business project, based on individual Irish citizens' addresses.
Yes, we do get the benefits of easier deliveries, and possibly all emergency services will end up using it as default, but beyond that we get nothing really.

First of all, what are the usages for private citizen of a post code that Eircode failed to deliver?

And even if it was only pro business - don't forget, that underlined we includes businesses and people behind them too. They work and pay taxes. The state is for them too. I see absolutely nothing wrong with state developing solutions that help doing business.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 09:41PM

grogi wrote: »

First of all, what are the usages for private citizen of a post code that Eircode failed to deliver?
.

Mainly locating things, sometimes locating yourself without giving too much information away.

I saw the other point you had about supporting businesses. It's legitimate, but it is also legitimate to challenge to what extent, and to argue in favour of individuals too. It didn't have to be all or the other.

grogi · 23-10-2017 09:51PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Mainly locating things, sometimes locating yourself without giving too much information away.

In other words you would like to provide your location without telling where you are?!

First three characters would give a rough idea where particular address is really. http://www.ossiansmyth.ie/eircode-routing-key

dr.fuzzenstein · 23-10-2017 10:01PM

Eircode was specifically designed because of the unique Irish addressing system.
Sean O'Brien
Caher
Ballygobackwards
Co. Tipp

Then you had to know that it was the other Caher, the one 5 miles down the road. Go back into Ballygobackwards, take a left at the crossroads, follow the road 2 miles, take a left at the turn that's more of a split, when.you see the dead badger you be gone to far, oh you can see a yellow house? No, you've gone totally the wrong way, go back and I'll meet you in town.
You think I'm joking? That was a weekly occurrence at my house for guests, customers, deliveries, the plumber and whoever else was calling.
The fire brigade was called to a chimney fire once at the neighbors house, nearly didn't make it. Neighbours were standing on the road directing them. You should see a fire truck making a u turn on a tiny country lane. A spectacle to behold.
Of course it will also impact dole cheats, tax dodgers and so on. I guess that's what's causing a lot if the ire on this thread.
And the argument of "but it's not the system I wanted!" is not a flyer.
A system that denoted an area was never going to be a flyer in Ireland, because adding one of those to the above address was never going to help anyone.

In fact it was just for once not something developed just for Dublin, because it never needed postcodes. It's a result of the absolute disaster that is addressing in Ireland elsewhere.

grogi · 23-10-2017 10:10PM

Jaylah Low Kidnapper wrote: »

You see, eircode is not for the postman either. Never was to be and never will be. The postman knows his route. This is for every other delivery. The guy from Dublin who doesn't know the rural area, the courier, the repairman etc. The Franch code won't get them to the rural premises in France.

In Italy the addresses were a mess as well. Very often they would give the km of the road where the premise is.

The below is a genuine, official address:

Cittadella Universitaria di Monserrato
S.P. Monserrato - Sestu Km 0.700
09042 Monserrato CA
Italy

(0.7km from Monserrato, on the provincial road from Monserrato to Sestu).

The high horse brigade · 23-10-2017 10:10PM

I just ordered something on screwfix Ireland, this required me to register and during the process of setting the delivery address it asked for my postcode and then auto filled my full address from my Eircode making it a much easier experience on my phone.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 10:30PM

grogi wrote: »

In other words you would like to provide your location without telling where you are?! First three characters would give a rough idea where particular address is really. http://www.ossiansmyth.ie/eircode-routing-key

Yes, exactly. For example in shops in France, you are often asked for your postal code, sometimes just the departement code (the first 2 digits).
To view the selections of items on Lidl website, you enter your postal code, so you get what's available in your area.
A lot of quick forms, light stuff like little surveys, while still being anonymous, can ask for a postcode, as it's not too intrusive.
When there's a queue behind you, and you are conducting official business that requires your postal code, you are not spelling out to everyone where exactly your house is located.
The local ads papers specialize in the departement area, for example mine was "le 69".
If a guy in le 01 told you he specialized in tree felling in the 01500 area, you'd know whereabouts that was, and it's that little bit more precise than saying "around Amberieu en Bugey".
That kind of stuff.

Actually, when people ask each other where they live, they sometimes reply in departements too, like "j'habite dans le 69".
It's official and fairly precise (at the French scale), while not unveiling your house number, sometimes just for the sake of an estimate on a job.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 10:32PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And the argument of "but it's not the system I wanted!" is not a flyer.
A system that denoted an area was never going to be a flyer in Ireland, because adding one of those to the above address was never going to help anyone.
.

I don't get that, or maybe I just don't agree.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 23-10-2017 10:36PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Yes, exactly. For example in shops in France, you are often asked for your postal code, sometimes just the departement code (the first 2 digits).
To view the selections of items on Lidl website, you enter your postal code, so you get what's available in your area.
A lot of quick forms, light stuff like little surveys, while still being anonymous, can ask for a postcode, as it's not too intrusive.
When there's a queue behind you, and you are conducting official business that requires your postal code, you are not spelling out to everyone where exactly your house is located.
The local ads papers specialize in the departement area, for example mine was "le 69".
If a guy in le 69 told you he specialized in tree felling in the 01500 area, you'd know whereabouts that was, and it's that little bit more precise than saying "around Amberieu en Bugey".
That kind of stuff.

Actually, when people ask each other where they live, they sometimes reply in departements too, like "j'habite dans le 69".
It's official and fairly precise (at the French scale), while not unveiling your house number, sometimes just for the sake of an estimate on a job.

In fairness a Department in France is like saying a county in Ireland; indeed it's even less specific. The average area of a Department is 5,965 km2.
I lived there. I know what a department is and it is in no way compatible to a post code.

But, look, you're determined to argue against Eircode even though it does what you need it to do.

Mountainsandh · 23-10-2017 10:45PM

Jaylah Low Kidnapper wrote: »

In fairness a Department in France is like saying a county in Ireland; indeed it's even less specific. The average area of a Department is 5,965 km2.
I lived there. I know what a department is and it is in no way compatible to a post code.

But, look, you're determined to argue against Eircode even though it does what you need it to do.

I'm sorry Jaylah Low Kidnapper, but although you are fully on board with it, you have to accept that others may not be, and our opinion on a public forum is just as valid as yours.
It's not sheer determination to be "against it", it's explaining why I'm disappointed with it. It's not even arguing against it since it's there to stay, presumably.

edit : I don't get your point about departements being bigger, I don't see how it's relevant.

Ubbquittious · 23-10-2017 11:03PM

Eircode only exists because politicians felt left out and backward not having a cryptic code in everyone's address like the rest of Europe

grogi · 24-10-2017 12:03AM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Eircode only exists because politicians felt left out and backward not having a cryptic code in everyone's address like the rest of Europe

Life is not always about greedy politicians.

jcd5971 · 24-10-2017 08:03AM

Unfortunately had to ring 999 for an ambulance for a family member yesterday.

The dispatcher asked for eircode, and then called out the directions to me to confirm rather than me having to think them out.

It was a small thing, but I had enough to worry about as it was.

So for me it's already worth its salt.

flaneur · 24-10-2017 08:48AM

French Départements are basically a counterpart to Irish counties and they used two digit numbering as a way of making them easier to handle in systems. There’s no geographical structure to them though, as the departments are listed alphabetically and then numbered sequentially. It’s not like 22 and 23 are even in the same region. So they actually give you less information than an Irish telephone area code for example which works on a hierarchy of region and subregion. So to be honest, they're only useful to a point outside of their intended use route mail.

The French and most other postal code systems developed in the 1950s ans 1960s to allow for easier automatic and manual sorting. It's useful because you had a vast array of towns to figure out and confusing mixes of departments, cities and historical regions on addresses back in the day they required a lot of specific knowledge and manual reading of letters to figure out where they were.

Ireland always used a hierarchical address of "post town" and county. It makes it very easy to sort as you just group by county and then by town or, city and suburb. This was one reason why codes were less urgent here.

I think there is a lot of unnecessary confusion going on here between Eircode and the classical continental postcodes. They're not doing the same thing at all.

A continental or any other classical postal code is just a mail sorting index to help the post office figure out addresses and was used in sorting frames to identify bags and pigeon holes.

Eircode is a full geolocation system that links a code to an individual address.

It's like comparing area codes to individual mobile numbers. They're related technologies but they serve different functions.

The way letter sorting is done changed enormously too. The entire sorting process happens at a small number of centers and they presort to the delivery point. In the old days they sorted step by step in multiple centers. Now that’s all done in basically one step in an automatic system that can prepare stuff for each postal route.

A system like Eircode in theory works perfectly for that as you can just get all the necessary information from one 7 character code.

A serious logistics system would provide a courier with a pre mapped, optimized route, listing all the addresses they needed to visit, in the correct order. All they should have to do is drive to that location and then identify the package in the back of the van by reading the name and address when they get there.

It would be pretty dumb to be trying to deliver large numbers of random packages by trying to work from the labels alone. You’d be driving all over the place.

seamus · 24-10-2017 09:01AM

grogi wrote: »

In Italy the addresses were a mess as well.

Don't get me started on Italy. In Florence, for example, every street has two numbering systems - one for businesses and one for residential. So when you're sending mail to no. 2, you only know by context whether that's for No. 2 the business or no. 2 the house. And the buildings are supposed to display the number, I think it's in black for business and red for residential. But of course they don't always.

So you have a row of buildings, many with no number, and you're looking for no. 20. You have no idea which one is number 19, and even if you did, it's likely that the house beside no. 19 isn't no. 20. It could be no. 10 (business).

It's mental.

grogi · 24-10-2017 09:08AM

seamus wrote: »

Don't get me started on Italy. /.../ It's mental.

I need to be reminded from time to time how mental... Thanks

24-10-2017 09:26AM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Eircode only exists because politicians felt left out and backward not having a cryptic code in everyone's address like the rest of Europe

One of the main benefits to the government was to have a proper database of every property in Ireland. The problem is by the time Eircode came in Revenue gathered this information with the household charge & then the property tax.

TheChizler · 24-10-2017 10:16AM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

One of the main benefits to the government was to have a proper database of every property in Ireland. The problem is by the time Eircode came in Revenue gathered this information with the household charge & then the property tax.

They already had this information in Geodirectory. Eircode is just a code added to the existing Geodirectory database.

It certainly means that the householder now can be made to provide an unambiguous reference to their property (instead of one of many possible valid addresses), but they had all this information already.

Hector Savage · 24-10-2017 11:42AM

Complete waste of 30 Million, I even tested it a few times by sending postcards to my mams Eircode ... she never got them.

Total joke, when you think what 30M could do for the health/homeless crisis ... mind you the corrupt govt. would find a way to blow that too.

flaneur · 24-10-2017 11:45AM

Emm, maybe because they have specifically said that they do not intend it to be a replacement for addresses?

The sorting system may get it down to the route using the eircode but the postman would need to top line of the address to work out the end point to manual delivery.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 24-10-2017 11:57AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Complete waste of 30 Million, I even tested it a few times by sending postcards to my mams Eircode ... she never got them.

Total joke, when you think what 30M could do for the health/homeless crisis ... mind you the corrupt govt. would find a way to blow that too.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Eircode is NOT for post deliveries. You were told this from day one, and that it was not for use by An Post. :rolleyes:

Eircode - Why did they bother?

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