Eircode - Why did they bother?

grogi · 22-10-2017 03:37PM

maryishere wrote: »

I think part of the reason it has not caught on, and only a few per cent of the population know their own postcode, is because most businesses do not use it. Ever see a postcode in an add? No. Ask you delivery driver if they use Eircodes. Did you know Eircode look for up to €25,000 from businesses to use Eircode.
https://www.eircode.ie/docs/default-source/Common/licensing-and-pricing-information-as-of-september-2015---published-v-3.pdf?sfvrsn=2

If only reading and understanding was as widespread as Eircode is now, we would be in such a better place...

22-10-2017 03:41PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Try it yourself using your own Eircode

I just did and it actually showed my house! I wonder who I could complain to about this breach of my privacy?

Capt'n Midnight · 22-10-2017 03:43PM

G_R wrote: »

Where are you getting 50m from?

It was 38m over 15 years. It hasn't cost anything close to 50m

thanks for that, for a while I thought they were going to charge businesses to use them as well as pay for them through taxation

TheChizler · 22-10-2017 03:57PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Just out of idle interest I put in my own Eircode into Google maps and it comes up with next door's address (currently unoccupied) and a picture of the rarely used storage premises next door to that. Anything delivered to either of those addresses is not likely to make its way to me for quite some time.

Suspect that Google Maps' implementation of Eircode is pretty inaccurate. So maybe emergency services are right to stay clear of it.

Try it yourself using your own Eircode

Is it at all possible you got your neighbour's Eircode by mistake? Does your Eircode correspond to your address at finder.eircode.ie. Any delivery place will ask for your address as well. If the driver has any bit of cop on he's not going to make a delivery solely based on the auto generated Street view picture.

If there's a genuine error you can ask Geodirectory to fix it.

grogi · 22-10-2017 04:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I just did and it actually showed my house! I wonder who I could complain to about this breach of my privacy?

Your house is on various maps as well. Total invigilation!

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 04:18PM

PDVerse wrote: »

35% of addresses in Ireland, approximately 600,000, are non-unique. It is impossible to find them using Google Maps or any other service with just an address. This was the major driver of design decisions. They can now be found by providing an Eircode. Which they do, to get insurance quotes, pizza delivery, packages delivered, check broadband availability, get service engineers, etc. The data destroys your argument.

You still don't get it.
My argument is that Eircode was designed to be sold to businesses, to save them time, money, and improve accuracy for delivery services.

It was not designed with the ordinary Joe Soap in mind, other than something to help his favourite pizza delivery service sell to him/her.

I'm very rural, and have a confusing address.
I always got things delivered, unless delivery drivers couldn't be arsed.

What I'm saying is that Eircode being designed for businesses, and marketed as of public service, is disingenuous. It kind of counts when the budget was so large.
Also, because of that complete focus on businesses and saleability, it is not intuitive, and has been poorly adopted by the general population.

Sure, companies spend less on delivering Jo's pizza.
In most cases though, Jo was still going to get his pizza delivered.

grogi · 22-10-2017 04:22PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

You still don't get it.
My argument is that Eircode was designed to be sold to businesses, to save them time, money, and improve accuracy for delivery services.

It was not designed with the ordinary Joe Soap in mind, other than something to help his favourite pizza delivery service sell to him/her.

There isn't business and private use.

Joe Average wants to have pizza delivered on time, online shopping on his porch etc. All those 'business' advantages you mentioned benefit Joe as well. What does Joe need postcode personally for that it doesn't do right now?!

Sure, companies spend less on delivering Jo's pizza.
In most cases though, Jo was still going to get his pizza delivered.

But now he doesn't need to be bothered to tell the story how his grand grand mother got the strip of land and how to get there...

server down · 22-10-2017 04:35PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I just did and it actually showed my house! I wonder who I could complain to about this breach of my privacy?

You mean on google street view? You can ask google to remove that.

PDVerse · 22-10-2017 04:37PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

You still don't get it.
My argument is that Eircode was designed to be sold to businesses, to save them time, money, and improve accuracy for delivery services.

It was not designed with the ordinary Joe Soap in mind, other than something to help his favourite pizza delivery service sell to him/her.

I'm very rural, and have a confusing address.
I always got things delivered, unless delivery drivers couldn't be arsed.

What I'm saying is that Eircode being designed for businesses, and marketed as of public service, is disingenuous. It kind of counts when the budget was so large.
Also, because of that complete focus on businesses and saleability, it is not intuitive, and has been poorly adopted by the general population.

Sure, companies spend less on delivering Jo's pizza.
In most cases though, Jo was still going to get his pizza delivered.

Except it was designed with Joe and Josephine Soap in mind.
It was designed to ensure businesses could use it.
It was designed to ensure Emergency Services could use it.
The funding model was not a factor in the design.

I appreciate you have your opinions on the design, but I happen to know what the thinking was behind every design decision, and your opinions are wrong.

The total cost to design and build Eircode was €3.2 million, the launch and dissemination cost €3.77 million. Eircode is being used over one million times per week to the benefit of Joe and Josephine Soap.

Shenshen · 22-10-2017 04:41PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Is it at all possible you got your neighbour's Eircode by mistake? Does your Eircode correspond to your address at finder.eircode.ie. Any delivery place will ask for your address as well. If the driver has any bit of cop on he's not going to make a delivery solely based on the auto generated Street view picture.

If there's a genuine error you can ask Geodirectory to fix it.

And I wish you the best of luck with that, as well as the patience of a saint. We've been trying to get ours corrected for years at this point.

I think that is actually it's greatest failing - having one post code for each dwelling, instead of for one road, or one area of town. It makes the mistakes that were made much more severe for the people affected, and much, much harder to correct.
Instead of zoning the country and assigning a code by area, someone somewhere gathered (not 100% accurate) data and decided based on that what post codes should be assigned. If your address happens to show incorrect in their database, you're essentially without recourse.

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 04:56PM

grogi wrote: »

There isn't business and private use.

Joe Average wants to have pizza delivered on time, online shopping on his porch etc. All those 'business' advantages you mentioned benefit Joe as well. What does Joe need postcode personally for that it doesn't do right now?!

But now he doesn't need to be bothered to tell the story how his grand grand mother got the strip of land and how to get there...

My point is that there is a large amount of Joes who don't know their Eircodes.

The app website/blog linked by someone else in the thread shows little bouncy markers clocking up how many times Eircodes were searched for.
On the same website it is made clear to businesses that Eircodes can be found with a postal address, therefore no pressure if customers don't know their Eircode.
So the little bouncy markers are simply businesses clocking up by searching for Eircodes.

Great, brilliant.

Meanwhile, Joe Soap still doesn't know his Eircode.

I use my Eircode, in some cases it helps with deliveries, it's great.

But I still find it inadequate in that when a postcode was finally designed for Irish addresses, it was designed in such a way that it could be sold as data sets to businesses, rather than be widely adopted by the Irish population.

It shows a lack of vision, like a lot of projects in Ireland, and a bias towards big business instead of possibly having supported smaller businesses, and made Joe Soap's life easier. I paid for this as well as you, and businesses.

Imagine if Eircode had been adopted by all, if we were all, including my rural neighbours, familiar and literate with Eircodes that made sense, our own, and others'.

Then when I saw an ad in the paper I would be able at a glance to pinpoint an area more precisely, and decide if I wanted to go to this shop or that one. I would input the Eircode provided in the ad, and drive there directly. I would be able to weed out plumbers in the small ads, depending on whether they live near me or on the other side of town, which is already 20 km away. A local shop might be smart enough to brag that they'll deliver to postcodes XYZ area when their competitors don't, and that would save me the hassle of having to ring and inquire if they deliver in my area. Mums outside the school would exchange Eircodes to help other Mums find their house for the play date next week-end. That ain't happening, because the Mums don't know their Eircodes, and even if they do, it doesn't even occur to them it could be useful.

My local papers' ads have no Eircodes, because these businesses have not seen the point in getting it printed in the papers.

All that has been happening is that businesses that have paid have benefited from Eircodes, but there could have been a lot of little uses in people's every day lives, that have been completely overlooked, and so it's not worth learning the bloody thing for a lot of people.

OldMrBrennan83 · 22-10-2017 04:57PM

This post has been deleted.

flaneur · 22-10-2017 05:00PM

They could do with a system for flagging errors more directly.
All mapping systems will have a small % of errors and if people can easily report them, they’ll get resolved.

Eircode finder should allow errors to be flagged and that information passed back to Geodirectory.

Also there should be a way of flagging up a new address manually to get an eircode issued rather than waiting for An Post and Geodirectory to pickup on it.

PDVerse · 22-10-2017 05:06PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

My point is that there is a large amount of Joes who don't know their Eircodes.

The app website/blog linked by someone else in the thread shows little bouncy markers clocking up how many times Eircodes were searched for.
On the same website it is made clear to businesses that Eircodes can be found with a postal address, therefore no pressure if customers don't know their Eircode.
So the little bouncy markers are simply businesses clocking up by searching for Eircodes.

Great, brilliant.

Meanwhile, Joe Soap still doesn't know his Eircode.

I use my Eircode, in some cases it helps with deliveries, it's great.

But I still find it inadequate in that when a postcode was finally designed for Irish addresses, it was designed in such a way that it could be sold as data sets to businesses, rather than be widely adopted by the Irish population.

It shows a lack of vision, like a lot of projects in Ireland, and a bias towards big business instead of possibly having supported smaller businesses, and made Joe Soap's life easier. I paid for this as well as you, and businesses.

Imagine if Eircode had been adopted by all, if we were all, including my rural neighbours, familiar and literate with Eircodes that made sense, our own, and others'.

Then when I saw an ad in the paper I would be able at a glance to pinpoint an area more precisely, and decide if I wanted to go to this shop or that one. I would input the Eircode provided in the ad, and drive there directly. I would be able to weed out plumbers in the small ads, depending on whether they live near me or on the other side of town, which is already 20 km away. A local shop might be smart enough to brag that they'll deliver to postcodes XYZ area when their competitors don't, and that would save me the hassle of having to ring and inquire if they deliver in my area. Mums outside the school would exchange Eircodes to help other Mums find their house for the play date next week-end. That ain't happening, because the Mums don't know their Eircodes, and even if they do, it doesn't even occur to them it could be useful.

My local papers' ads have no Eircodes, because these businesses have not seen the point in getting it printed in the papers.

All that has been happening is that businesses that have paid have benefited from Eircodes, but there could have been a lot of little uses in people's every day lives, that have been completely overlooked, and so it's not worth learning the bloody thing for a lot of people.

Wrong. If you want to know the rationale behind not including areas in the Eircode design you can read about it here
https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/07/28/what-if-alternative-eircode-history-in-a-parallel-universe

You won't find any reference to monetisation of the database, because that wasn't a factor.

Sam Quentin · 22-10-2017 05:06PM

I love me Eircode it rocks and I know it off by heart.. Don't be jelly :P

In all seriousness>> maybe some system was down on that particular(stormy)night!? I'm sure emergency services do use them, and if I remember one of the adds in the original add campaign was solely aimed at contacting the Emergency services....

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 05:08PM

PDVerse wrote: »

Except it was designed with Joe and Josephine Soap in mind.
It was designed to ensure businesses could use it.
It was designed to ensure Emergency Services could use it.
The funding model was not a factor in the design.

I appreciate you have your opinions on the design, but I happen to know what the thinking was behind every design decision, and your opinions are wrong.

The total cost to design and build Eircode was €3.2 million, the launch and dissemination cost €3.77 million. Eircode is being used over one million times per week to the benefit of Joe and Josephine Soap.

See my other post for uses to Joe and Josephine Soap that designers thought were not worth the hassle.

If my friend Sean, or Oliver's Mum Fiona do not know their Eircodes, the benefit to emergency services is halved, as they have to spend time inputting an address to extract an Eircode.

Wouldn't it be great if communication and/or design had been such that both Sean and Fiona knew their Eircodes ?

Nope.
Didn't happen.

Genuinely, are there maps that show where all Eircodes starting in letter-digit-digit are ? I don't know, I haven't been told, I can't find any.

This would really have helped assign some meaning to the codes, I would know that my prefix expands to the village, but over there on the mountain, that's a different prefix. My friend Sean would know, even without telling him the second part of the Eircode, that your man that fixes landmowers' is in the T76 area.

Similar to this : https://www.gbmaps.com/4-digit-postcode-maps/rg-reading-postcode-district-map.gif

That would have been user friendly.
Oh but wait, maybe it would have affected saleability of databases.

PDVerse · 22-10-2017 05:11PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

See my other post for uses to Joe and Josephine Soap that designers thought were not worth the hassle.

If my friend Sean, or Oliver's Mum Fiona do not know their Eircodes, the benefit to emergency services is halved, as they have to spend time inputting an address to extract an Eircode.

Wouldn't it be great if communication and/or design had been such that both Sean and Fiona knew their Eircodes ?

Nope.
Didn't happen.

Genuinely, are there maps that show where all Eircodes starting in letter-digit-digit are ? I don't know, I haven't been told, I can't find any.

This would really have helped assign some meaning to the codes, I would know that my prefix expands to the village, but over there on the mountain, that's a different prefix. My friend Sean would know, even without telling him the second part of the Eircode, that your man that fixes landmowers' is in the T76 area.

Similar to this : https://www.gbmaps.com/4-digit-postcode-maps/rg-reading-postcode-district-map.gif

That would have been user friendly.
Oh but wait, maybe it would have affected saleability of databases.

Maps of the 139 Routing Key boundaries have been available for over 2 years. Here's one.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ObFwqV2vtigkclpjea3sUHNhUuw&ll=53.4475720006637%2C-8.238166500000034&z=7

TheChizler · 22-10-2017 05:17PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

If my friend Sean, or Oliver's Mum Fiona do not know their Eircodes, the benefit to emergency services is halved, as they have to spend time inputting an address to extract an Eircode.

Why would they look up an Eircode if they weren't given it? It's used as a two factor validation of the address. Entirely pointless to fill in the second factor based on the first.

No offence but this is the definition of a strawman argument; inventing a process which something fails at, and criticising that thing based on that failure.

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 05:22PM

PDVerse wrote: »

Wrong. If you want to know the rationale behind not including areas in the Eircode design you can read about it here
https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/07/28/what-if-alternative-eircode-history-in-a-parallel-universe

You won't find any reference to monetisation of the database, because that wasn't a factor.

Your point is moot really, as Eircode has done exactly that in assigning a letter-digit-digit to areas, simply random new ones.

Fair enough, I can see the point in random new ones if the other option was a complete nightmare, now where is all this information available to Eircode users ?

Do we get poster maps to pin widely in our rural post offices, community halls, shops, to show where we now are ? What random code we were assigned ?
That way, we would remember better : "oh, alright, I'm in T76, Sean is T77".

When do we get brochures sent to our houses to show us that ?

Or is that going to lead to... postcode snobbery, maybe, either way, eventually ?

I mean, like I said, I could put a poster together for other people in my community, I bet they'd remember their Eircodes then at the next community alert meeting, but it's time consuming. I can't afford the business rate.

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 05:28PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Why would they look up an Eircode if they weren't given it? It's used as a two factor validation of the address. Entirely pointless to fill in the second factor based on the first.

No offence but this is the definition of a strawman argument; inventing a process which something fails at, and criticising that thing based on that failure.

No no, I think you misunderstand my point, I thought the argument was that Eircodes would make it much easier to find the exact address, they would avoid confusion between 2 or 3 houses for example, when an ambulance is called.

So if Sean is taken ill, and Betty rings the ambulance, but she doesn't know the Eircode, she gives her address, then if the emergency services don't check the Eircode, they might still be confused when they get there ?

So either they're going to just go by the address Betty gave, or they're going to double check the Eircode.
Either way there could be time wasted.

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 05:39PM

PDVerse wrote: »

Maps of the 139 Routing Key boundaries have been available for over 2 years. Here's one.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ObFwqV2vtigkclpjea3sUHNhUuw&ll=53.4475720006637%2C-8.238166500000034&z=7

Thanks, I'd better save this as I don't know at all how I would find that again.

Failure to communicate so, and areas that are indeed very wide ranging, but Ireland is small I guess.

Area size put aside, I suppose a poster with this map on the wall in the post office would still go a long way towards helping people remember their Eircode.

I don't know how to print from a map like that, and I'd be kind of doing Eircode's job, but maybe there are printed posters or brochures available showing just that ?

PDVerse · 22-10-2017 05:49PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Thanks, I'd better save this as I don't know at all how I would find that again.

Failure to communicate so, and areas that are indeed very wide ranging, but Ireland is small I guess.

Area size put aside, I suppose a poster with this map on the wall in the post office would still go a long way towards helping people remember their Eircode.

I don't know how to print from a map like that, and I'd be kind of doing Eircode's job, but maybe there are printed posters or brochures available showing just that ?

Let me save you some time and educate you in the process. The Routing Keys are assigned by An Post, reflecting their Principal Post Town network. An Post do not have defined areas, that would be inefficient. When a new property is built it is added to an existing postal route. This defines where the sorting office is for the address, which defines its Principal Post Town. If An Post used pre-defined areas they would either have a less efficient network or would need to change those areas when new builds occur. This is what happens with UK postcodes, changes require the boundaries to change.

Anyone who licenses the Eircode Address Database (single seat license is €180 plus VAT per annum) can draw around buildings with the same Routing Key and define areas. But they are just examples, there are no official boundaries, they don't exist by definition.

The only thing that would be achieved by An Post providing maps of areas that don't in reality exist is that people would complain when their new build got a different Routing Key than the one they expected based on the map.

Just to be clear, you can't send people a map of areas that don't exist.

22-10-2017 05:54PM

I use Eircodes quite a bit in work. A good number of our clients list them on their websites, and Hewlett Packard ask for the Eircode when I'm arranging warranty callouts, despite the call centre being based in Bangalore.

It's also very handy for my parents in rural Kerry, no more "second right after whatever local landmark and look for a barn on the other side of the road".

dresden8 · 22-10-2017 05:55PM

Eircode - Why did they bother?

Some political knob jockey thought they would be a good idea. Those types don't listen.

Hence we have eircode.

OldMrBrennan83 · 22-10-2017 05:56PM

This post has been deleted.

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 06:44PM

PDVerse wrote: »

Let me save you some time and educate you in the process. The Routing Keys are assigned by An Post, reflecting their Principal Post Town network. An Post do not have defined areas, that would be inefficient. When a new property is built it is added to an existing postal route. This defines where the sorting office is for the address, which defines its Principal Post Town. If An Post used pre-defined areas they would either have a less efficient network or would need to change those areas when new builds occur. This is what happens with UK postcodes, changes require the boundaries to change.

Anyone who licenses the Eircode Address Database (single seat license is €180 plus VAT per annum) can draw around buildings with the same Routing Key and define areas. But they are just examples, there are no official boundaries, they don't exist by definition.

Just to be clear, you can't send people a map of areas that don't exist.

I see. You could though, with "terms and conditions" so to speak, to exonerate An Post/Eircode in the event someone is disappointed they didn't guess their area right. Just like this online map is available for perusal.

You are very wrong on this point (below), and I think that helps me understand the whole flaws in the system and how it failed to be adopted by people around me.

The only thing that would be achieved by An Post providing maps of areas that don't in reality exist is that people would complain when their new build got a different Routing Key than the one they expected based on the map.

The areas do exist, simply, they have evolving boundaries.

Eircode is a concept, and not a simple one either since there's the concept of "areas" embedded in it, and all other important factors.

You simply cannot expect Joe and Josephine to buy in to a concept without understanding it.

Companies got it : pay money, get your data set, save money. Who cares how the data set is got at.

For people it's different, and you see, even though you won't admit it because the little bouncy markers are impressive, and they tick some boxes, a lot of people outside of the business sphere have failed to understand it all, and so they don't know and use their Eircode.

So by showing them the map with Area codes (there's a lingo to it, oh yeah, routing keys), you are helping people understand the concept, and showing people that actually, one can make sense of their new code.

It's easier to get someone to own a concept by showing them what is, and what isn't. So by showing the map, you're showing them "this is you", and "this is not you". "This is your neighbour out by the mountain", "this is your niece near Clonmel", "this is Maura out in co Mayo" and "there is the code for the cousins near Maura, they have the same prefix". "Their code is not like yours".

This would be a minimum, to ensure people can understand the rationale behind an Eircode that looks nonsensical in an individual bubble, and relate it to themselves.

There is a point in doing that, if the intention is really that everyone learn and start using their Eircode, not just businesses.

Of course, you could just not care.

flaneur · 22-10-2017 07:03PM

People understand it when you do this:

Go to major pizza delivery company online:
Key in 7 char Eircode.
Bang in PayPal or touch apple pay fingerprint.

Wait 20 mins - driver doesn't get lost and actually finds you without phonecalls about how many houses from the one with the weird tree that looks like a witch riding a motorcycle it is.

Eat pizza!

Thanks Eircode! Nom nom nom ...

Irish addrrsses are an absolute pain in the ... for stuff like that.

Also it's very useful for checking services like broadband etc.
I've used it to avoid buying houses in broadband black spots for example by checking the Eircode on eir etc you couldn't do that previously without getting a landline number for the individual house or wading through often very inaccurate address systems.

snowflaker · 22-10-2017 07:10PM

Christ the anti eircode brigade arguments are getting pretty petty now

snowflaker · 22-10-2017 07:12PM

My eircode brings all the boys to the yard, damn right it’s better than yours!

Mountainsandh · 22-10-2017 07:16PM

flaneur wrote: »

People understand it when you do this:

Go to major pizza delivery company online:
Key in 7 char Eircode.
Bang in PayPal or touch apple pay fingerprint.

Wait 20 mins - driver doesn't get lost and actually finds you without phonecalls about how many houses from the one with the weird tree that looks like a witch riding a motorcycle it is.

Eat pizza!

Thanks Eircode!

Evidently it might work with younger generations who :
a) order pizza
b) go online
c) are familiar with Paypal or Apple pay fingerprint
d) do not face the challenge of aging brain matter
e) live in an environment where for convenience, everything is simplified and not understanding is no longer an issue.

Congratulations, use your young braincells for Eircode recall, enjoy your piping hot pizza, and don't worry about the understanding part, good for you.

Eircode - Why did they bother?

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