#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Barry Badrinath · 20-10-2017 03:42PM

^^^

Fcuk sake

Crea · 20-10-2017 03:51PM

jo2509 wrote: »

I was just thinking to myself, if i were a victim of rape/serious sexual assault/abuse, and some attention wh0re on social media was trying to equate their ass pinching experience with mine, i'd be pretty f*cked off.

This is why I think it's dangerous. A guy pestering for a date is considered sexual harassment by some or a wolf whistle with no threatening behaviour. Yet these "victims" are putting themselves in the same league as people who were raped or blackmailed into having sex.

Sleeper12 · 20-10-2017 04:00PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote:

The other side is the undermining the accused right to a fair defense.

"Me too" doesn't undermine the accused in this case as people are posting that the same happened to them but not by the same predictor.

I think it's a good idea. A poster on another thread laughed when I said that one in four have suffered abuse. Problem is that most stayed quiet. This will help show non believers the extent to problem.

jo2509 · 20-10-2017 04:02PM

Crea wrote: »

This is why I think it's dangerous. A guy pestering for a date is considered sexual harassment by some or a wolf whistle with no threatening behaviour. Yet these "victims" are putting themselves in the same league as people who were raped or blackmailed into having sex.

Well quite. Isn't there a certain journalist turned personal trainer who is sexually assaulted every time she leaves the house. Be that someone brushing up against her on the bus or a 'cheer up love' from a passing bricklayer :rolleyes:

Roger_007 · 20-10-2017 04:06PM

One thing I don't like about the MeToo thing is that when any of the celeb women are interviewed they always make the point that what's being revealed at the moment is just "the tip of the iceberg". The implication is that most, or all, men are guilty, (or would be if they got half a chance).
There is also the danger that some women might be jumping on the bandwagon because there might be some compo to be had somewhere along the line.

Irish Guitarist · 20-10-2017 04:08PM

I have no idea what #metoo is supposed to mean but I'm guessing it has something to do with that Weinsten lad who no one had heard of until about five days ago.

There was something on Twitter the other day about women boycotting the site. Apparently Rose McGowan had tweeted something which had been removed. The minority group commonly known as women were sick of being silenced on Twitter so their solution was to not post anything on Twitter for 24 hours.

I think it's all attention seeking bullshit myself.

Herb Powell · 20-10-2017 04:08PM

I'd be interested to know how many replying in this thread are men.

Because based on the majority of the posts, you'd be validating the point of #metoo entirely.

20-10-2017 04:19PM

Sleeper12 wrote:

I think it's a good idea. A poster on another thread laughed when I said that one in four have suffered abuse. Problem is that most stayed quiet. This will help show non believers the extent to problem.

No it won't. In no way will it. People jumping on a bandwagon will do the polar opposite of converting non believers.

20-10-2017 04:19PM

Herb Powell wrote:

Because based on the majority of the posts, you'd be validating the point of #metoo entirely.

Please explain.

noaddedsugar · 20-10-2017 04:20PM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I have no idea what #metoo is supposed to mean but I'm guessing it has something to do with that Weinsten lad who no one had heard of until about five days ago.

There was something on Twitter the other day about women boycotting the site. Apparently Rose McGowan had tweeted something which had been removed. The minority group commonly known as women were sick of being silenced on Twitter so their solution was to not post anything on Twitter for 24 hours.

I think it's all attention seeking bullshit myself.

So you think it is attention seeking to say that we don't like being fondled on the train on the way to work or touched up in a bar or have comments made on their appearance as they do their shopping? Are we not allowed to say that even though these things may not be as big as rape, they are still degrading and humiliating. There is so many people who say well why don't women speak up when these things happen, then they do speak up and they are told they are attention seeking. How can we win? What is an acceptable way to say stop, we have had enough? What can women do to get men to listen to them?

jo2509 · 20-10-2017 04:27PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

So you think it is attention seeking to say that we don't like being fondled on the train on the way to work or touched up in a bar or have comments made on their appearance as they do their shopping? Are we not allowed to say that even though these things may not be as big as rape, they are still degrading and humiliating. There is so many people who say well why don't women speak up when these things happen, then they do speak up and they are told they are attention seeking. How can we win? What is an acceptable way to say stop, we have had enough? What can women do to get men to listen to them?

I can only speak for myself, but on the (odd) occasion i have been touched up in a bar or on public transport, i have removed the offending hand and moved away. Comments on my appearance? I either ignore or tell them to f*ck off and go about my day. I don't consider it degrading or humiliating because i believe it says more about the gob****e doing it than me. I don't let it affect me. But as i said, that's just my approach.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 20-10-2017 04:32PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I think it's a good idea. A poster on another thread laughed when I said that one in four have suffered abuse. Problem is that most stayed quiet. This will help show non believers the extent to problem.

It won't in a lot of cases. The point of the campaign is to highlight how many people have been subjected to assault or harassment, but for some people, it has to be about them so it's somehow read as "all men are rapists", and seeing the volume of people engaging in the campaign their first reaction isn't "that's a lot of people" but "that's a lot of lying women".

I agree the reactions actually demonstrate pretty well why this is still a conversation that we need to keep having, but #metoo will just confirm some people's belief of "all these women are obsessed with being victims and they're always all out to get poor little me, they're after me!" The lack of self awareness in that one never gets old I have to say.

Penn · 20-10-2017 04:36PM

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

It won't in a lot of cases. The point of the campaign is to highlight how many people have been subjected to assault or harassment, but for some people, it has to be about them so it's somehow read as "all men are rapists", and seeing the volume of people engaging in the campaign their first reaction isn't "that's a lot of people" but "that's a lot of lying women".

I agree the reactions actually demonstrate pretty well why this is still a conversation that we need to keep having, but #metoo will just confirm some people's belief of "all these women are obsessed with being victims and they're always all out to get poor little me, they're after me!" The lack of self awareness in that one never gets old I have to say.

Sure you can't even sexually harass a woman these days without being accused of sexual harassment!

scdublin · 20-10-2017 04:37PM

For a lot of people, it's given them the courage to speak out about their experiences of assault/harassment and to me there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If it happened to you and that's your experience, then no one can tell you not to speak about it. Some of the comments on here are completely trivializing the situations that happen to so many people.

Irish Guitarist · 20-10-2017 04:47PM

Herb Powell · 20-10-2017 04:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Please explain.

The utter disbelief that what the women are saying might actually be valid.

The misinterpretation of this as accusing all men of being monsters.

The immediate need to relate this to oneself as a man, because men's experiences do not line up with women's.

The gulf in the experience is so vast, in fact, that there is a backlash, pretty much exclusively from men, who cannot fathom that there might actually be a problem.

To be clear in this, I am a man myself, and I am very conscious of how I treat women. Sexist "banter" lowers my opinion of someone immediately. It's weak. I have been sexually assaulted by women on more than one occasion, and while it was never pleasant, never once did I fear for my safety, and those were isolated incidents. From speaking with female friends of mine, those experiences, no matter how awkward they might have been, cannot compare to the constant harassment they have to put up with. The amount of dick pics I've been shown by them, for example..........fucccking hell.

The whole point of this, as far as I can tell, is to try get men to take their heads out of their arses for just a few minutes and reflect on how we can start making sure that this **** becomes less and less common. This seems to be too much for some people, unfortunately. It's quite hilarious to see men accusing women taking part of playing the victim, when that is precisely what they're doing themselves by expressing such outrage.

Gbear · 20-10-2017 04:54PM

Penn wrote: »

** A load of mad ****e **

I wish this "sexual assault/sexual harassment/rape is all about power" canard would **** off.
It's always struck me as something people say to make them sound terribly clever indeed, but I only ever see it asserted in passing, as if it's a given and has a basis in fact.

Sometimes it is about power, but mostly it's about sex, selfishness and a lack of empathy.

There's some case to be made for the notion with regards to how people who are insecure are more likely to be assholes, and one of the routes they take is putting others down to make them seem better by comparison, but even when that's part of sexual harassment, it's still at least as much about sex and being selfish.

The #metoo thing has it's upsides and downsides.
On one hand, people will likely come forward about the subject and be more open about their experiences. Hopefully this will trickle into society at large.

On the other hand, given the nature of social media and the fact that the most active and most visible are also the most self-centered and melodramatic, the core message could well be lost amongst those who are leaping on the hashtag to get attention over something either made up entirely or fairly inoccuous.

The fact that it's vague means that those who suffered from genuinely awful experiences will feel safe enough coming forward and not have to go into details that might be painful to air in public.
At the same time, it means the level of seriousness with which is going to be taken will probably float somewhere towards the low end of the spectrum, because people don't know what it's about either.

Ideally people could talk about it in detail and be open about their experiences and they wouldn't feel ashamed to talk about things over which they had no control and that weren't in any way their fault, but humans are funny that way.

sunshine and showers · 20-10-2017 04:58PM

scdublin wrote: »

For a lot of people, it's given them the courage to speak out about their experiences of assault/harassment and to me there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If it happened to you and that's your experience, then no one can tell you not to speak about it. Some of the comments on here are completely trivializing the situations that happen to so many people.

Some of the comments here are actually really hurtful and part of the reason I did not report my sexual assault. It's the culture of "it's not a big deal, why would you ruin his life over a mistake?" and "well what did you do to encourage it?"

I was sexually assaulted by someone I thought was a close friend. It happened around the time that poor woman was completely alienated for reporting her assault in Listowel. People wouldn't serve her in the shops, but people lined up to shake his hand in the courtroom. Her assault was recorded in cctv and it was still her fault. All I had was my word against his. That was a massive factor in not reporting.

It took me years of therapy and antidepressants to move on from it. I lost friends because of something I didn't do. I spent my time at university quite seriously depressed and missed out on a lot. Nothing happened to him bar a few people no longer speaking to him - but only when I pressured them.

This hashtag is about helping people feel less alone - as well as about showing people (men in particular) that there is a problem in our society. A deeply ingrained one. It starts with thinking that slapping someone's arse is just a bit of craic, and it ends with queuing up to shake the hand of a convicted rapist.

So you know what? No. Mock all you like, but I'm not going to be quiet anymore. #MeToo

noaddedsugar · 20-10-2017 05:02PM

jo2509 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself, but on the (odd) occasion i have been touched up in a bar or on public transport, i have removed the offending hand and moved away. Comments on my appearance? I either ignore or tell them to f*ck off and go about my day. I don't consider it degrading or humiliating because i believe it says more about the gob****e doing it than me. I don't let it affect me. But as i said, that's just my approach.

But don't you wish you didn't have to remove the offending hand away? It's good for you that it doesn't bother you but it does bother some people. It bothered me to felt up most days on my home from school, it bothers me that my daughter who will be a teen in a few years time may have to experience the same thing. There is no need for it, end of. It shouldn't be a hardship for men to keep their hands to themselves.

jo2509 · 20-10-2017 05:10PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

But don't you wish you didn't have to remove the offending hand away? It's good for you that it doesn't bother you but it does bother some people. It bothered me to felt up most days on my home from school, it bothers me that my daughter who will be a teen in a few years time may have to experience the same thing. There is no need for it, end of. It shouldn't be a hardship for men to keep their hands to themselves.

Of course i do!
I guess what i'm trying to say is that i won't allow anyone to *make* me feel humiliated, or degraded because of their actions.

hatrickpatrick · 20-10-2017 05:11PM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

This in my view is where it crosses the line. Making one advance out of interest is not harassment. Harassment is continuing to persist after being rejected.

Unless the advance referenced in this tweet was delivered in a sleazy way, it should not be regarded as harassment. Otherwise, how is any relationship supposed to start, unless we're saying that literally all relationships / sexual encounters have to begin between mutual friends or through a medium like tinder?

Burial. · 20-10-2017 05:17PM

A complete load of sh*te imo. Not buying the whole giving a avenue for people to open up about their torrid experiences. Any one who has to use such a public medium like Facebook or Twitter to open up about such personal things like being sexually abused has something seriously wrong with them and has really weird beliefs and values. In my opinions it's just attention seeking and like whoring just because clowns like Jennifer Lawrence have come out and everyone is sobbing over them. Modern people love to play the victim, love getting pity and validation through likes and emoji reactions. Like who are these clowns directing these stories to? There isn't a sane human alive that thinks sexual assault and harassment is okay, convicted sex offenders are never forgiven or given an ounce of respect. But that's feminism for ya. I read somewhere that France is trying to bring in a law where men will get on the spot fine for cat calling. Before long men won't be able to even look women in the eye and say hello such is the sad state of affairs.

kylith · 20-10-2017 05:23PM

jo2509 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself, but on the (odd) occasion i have been touched up in a bar or on public transport, i have removed the offending hand and moved away. Comments on my appearance? I either ignore or tell them to f*ck off and go about my day. I don't consider it degrading or humiliating because i believe it says more about the gob****e doing it than me. I don't let it affect me. But as i said, that's just my approach.

I was molested by a family member as a teenager. I've been groped in shops and pubs.

I don't have a choice about getting affected by some stranger believing that he has the right to touch me without permission. I am affected by it.

No-one gets to decide what affects another person, or how they feel about something. People writing off slapping or pinching arses or lewd comments as 'a bit of craic' that women 'shouldn't let affect them' don't know what that person may have gone through in the past.

Gbear · 20-10-2017 05:26PM

Burial. wrote: »

Any one who has to use such a public medium like Facebook or Twitter to open up about such personal things like being sexually abused has something seriously wrong with them and has really weird beliefs and values.

Is that not an issue in itself though?

Why should people have to feel ashamed about having a **** thing done to them?

Far be it from me to deny that there aren't narcissists on social media, but surely having a public discourse about something that's happening to loads of people in order to reduce the shame and stigma associated with it is a good thing?

Burial. wrote: »

There isn't a sane human alive that thinks sexual assault and harassment is okay, convicted sex offenders are never forgiven or given an ounce of respect. But that's feminism for ya. I read somewhere that France is trying to bring in a law where men will get on the spot fine for cat calling. Before long men won't be able to even look women in the eye and say hello such is the sad state of affairs.

There's no them and us thing with this.
There isn't a clear line of separation between good people and degenerates.
There's a sliding scale of perception of behaviours.

Some people are thick c*nts and while they can grasp that raping someone is a bad thing to do, they might just think catcalling or copping a feel 'is only a bit of craic sure'.

It's likely the ****tiest people make up a disproportionately high number of those who commit these offences, but given how prevalent it is, it still must be a fairly large number of people.

Bambi985 · 20-10-2017 05:26PM

The problem I have with it is how broad the phrase is. It seems to cover everything from an arse grope in a club or a "cheer up sweetheart" by a construction worker to women who have literally been raped. To me they're not in the same bracket and hashtagging in the vein that Brie Larson has - essentially because someone hit on you - detracts from the whole concept.

I don't consider myself a victim because someone has ogled my tits in a boardroom meeting or a random creep followed me down the street or tried to get my number or whatever. Do I consider those things acceptable, no, I consider that kind of behaviour indicative of a certain type of moron, but I'm not a victim because I meet morons every so often either.

hatrickpatrick · 20-10-2017 05:28PM

kylith wrote: »

I was molested by a family member as a teenager. I've been groped in shops and pubs.

I don't have a choice about getting affected by some stranger believing that he has the right to touch me without permission. I am affected by it.

No-one gets to decide what affects another person, or how they feel about something. People writing off slapping or pinching arses or lewd comments as 'a bit of craic' that women 'shouldn't let affect them' don't know what that person may have gone through in the past.

All of the above should be regarded as sexual assault and carry extremely serious penalties. My issue is that people blur the line between harassment and simply making an advance - harassment by definition is persistent. Asking somebody out or telling them that you find them attractive is just a standard way of opening the door to seeing if someone is interested in response - if we require people to know in advance whether they're going to be rejected or reciprocated, then by logical extension, no relationship between strangers can ever begin, ever. That in my view is ridiculous - sure, many people in relationships begin as friends or are introduced by a mutual friend, but just as many begin as random, chance encounters in which one of the people had the courage to make an approach to the other. If that is now regarded as a problem - see the TSA tweet above - then a whole pile of people I know in happy relationships wouldn't be allowed to have got together in the first place, since the initial encounter would have been classified as harassment. That, to me, is just moronic.

retro:electro · 20-10-2017 05:28PM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

:eyeroll:

Now if she said she smiled at him and he squeezed her boobs I'd see her point- but he asked her for her number; a perfectly acceptable and polite way of engaging with somebody.
What a croc of sh!t.

hatrickpatrick · 20-10-2017 05:32PM

anna080 wrote: »

:eyeroll:

Now if she said she smiled at him and he squeezed her boobs I'd see her point- but he asked her for her number; a perfectly acceptable and polite way of engaging with somebody.
What a croc of sh!t.

Some people obviously feel that legitimately approaching somebody with interest should be restricted to designated chat up zones. Problem is, there are even people who regard those designated chat up zones as a no go - look at people who complain about being hit on on clubs when they just went out to hang with their friends.

As I say, it's as if being introduced by a mutual friend or matching on a dating app is now the only 100% iron clad way to avoid a chat up being perceived as unacceptable. Or being psychic and knowing in advance whether the person you like, likes you back.

BlaasForRafa · 20-10-2017 05:34PM

the current hysteria is starting to look a bit like the "satanic abuse" panic of the early 90's. There's so much "trial by media" going on that it's becoming a bit of a free for all.

kylith · 20-10-2017 05:36PM

Burial. wrote: »

A complete load of sh*te imo. Not buying the whole giving a avenue for people to open up about their torrid experiences. Any one who has to use such a public medium like Facebook or Twitter to open up about such personal things like being sexually abused has something seriously wrong with them and has really weird beliefs and values. In my opinions it's just attention seeking and like whoring just because clowns like Jennifer Lawrence have come out and everyone is sobbing over them. Modern people love to play the victim, love getting pity and validation through likes and emoji reactions. Like who are these clowns directing these stories to? There isn't a sane human alive that thinks sexual assault and harassment is okay, convicted sex offenders are never forgiven or given an ounce of respect. But that's feminism for ya. I read somewhere that France is trying to bring in a law where men will get on the spot fine for cat calling. Before long men won't be able to even look women in the eye and say hello such is the sad state of affairs.

Or maybe, maybe, knowing that lots of other people have had similar experiences can help someone who has been assaulted feel confident enough to report their assault.

Maybe, maybe, knowing that it can happen to Jennifer Lawrence and other famous women will help them feel less alone, and less like it is their fault.