Should religious indoctrination of children be illegal?

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 14-10-2017 10:07AM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You don't seem to have the capacity to understand that the majority of schools are owned by the church and parents/citizens are more than happy to send their kids to them. Having made that choice, the State provides financial backup to support their free decision

And the only reason they send their kids there is because it’s their only choice usually.

beauf · 14-10-2017 10:14AM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

And the only reason they send their kids there is because it’s their only choice usually.

True for some certainly. But not all.

AudreyHepburn · 14-10-2017 10:15AM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Indoctrinating children into any type of belief system, be atheist or religious, is of course wrong and anyone with half a brain cell knows this.

That said I don’t consider our current education system indoctrination.

I was brought up Catholic and educated in a Catholic school and it hasn’t done me a bit of harm. I consider myself perfectly well rounded, intelligent and capable of making my own choices in life.

I believe we should teach children about all sides of the religion debate in a neutral way and let them make up their own minds.

Teaching them that all religious people are homophobic, peadophile enabling, unintelligent nut jobs is evey bit as bad as teaching them that all atheists are stuck up, militant and full of self importance.

Is it really that much of hardship just to allow people to decide for themselves?

Pwindedd · 14-10-2017 10:41AM

I would advocate removing the need for baptismal cert to enrol in catholic school and see where it goes from there. It's clear that a vast majority of parents only do it for this reason. You can still have a catholic ethos for the school. Religion class could be learning about all religions and we could all just be a little more chilled out about the whole thing. Let it evolve naturally. With peace.

We are a non religious family. My daughter passed through catholic school and despite a little bit of ostracism around confirmation time she seems to have a very 'meh' attitude to religion. We're not militant and we don't think we're cool or edgy. We just don't believe in God.

MadDog76 · 14-10-2017 10:52AM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

If you had the brain capacity to understand the thread you’ll see that my problem is with schools that receive STATE FUNDING being able to reject a huge demographic of the population based on religion (or lack thereof).

Irreligiousness (if that’s even a word) should be the default ethos of any school receiving state funding, if parents don’t like that then THEY should build a school for little Johnny. I doubt they would though. The majority of “Catholics” are hypocrites in this country anyway. Blindly ticking Catholic on the census and only attending Christmas Mass etc and only getting first Communion for the day out.

And the non-religious (and other religious) community have already built their own schools. They’re called Educate Together Schools, but these are woefully uncommon as state-funded “Catholic” schools.

You're ignoring the fact that a lot (most?) of the schools in Ireland, as well as the land they're on, are owned by the Catholic Church .......... so you're lot will need to purchase land and build new schools before you can criticise where State Funding is going.

14-10-2017 11:04AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Youre making the mistake of implying that a criticism of religion equates to a criticism of its followers.

This, however, is essentially the old bigoted line of Paisley and his followers: 'We don't hate Catholics; we hate their religion'. Shudder. There's a very, very, very fine line between that ostensible nuance and burning three little boys alive with a petrol bomb. Once you demean people as being lesser than you for their beliefs, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to justify doing much worse to them. They're not fully rational - or, in Irish history terms, they're 'superstitious popish natives'.

It's a basic lesson from history that's definitely not being learned by the more vociferous of the self-styled "atheists", many of whom at least online possess an anti-Catholic venom that would be firmly at home at a Free Presbyterian Church meeting led by Ian Paisley in 1965.

And I wouldn't have much time for the RCC and its collaboration with the British Empire in this country or its fee-charging Catholic schools in Dublin aping English private schools in their sporting and intellectual culture in 2017. Their English Ireland has never been worth fighting for, and never will be. Then again, I'm coming from a much older Gaelic/western seaboard/republican/socialist/anti-clerical/ cultural nationalist tradition in this country that would have no truck with the West Brit politics of "Atheist Ireland" and its republican-hating self-styled leader. A huge number of the self-styled "atheists" online are fly-by-night fashion followers who wouldn't have had the backbone or spirit to stand up against the Roman Catholic Church when it was a genuinely powerful force, on behalf of say the teacher Eileen Flynn in 1982. It takes no courage to take the RCC on now. None. Absolutely zero.

Anti-clericalism has existed in Ireland for much longer than these people have, although they'd like to give the impression that it was all darkness before "atheists" arrived to enlighten us poor benighted souls. It took genuine courage then:

Jim Gralton (1886-1945)

MadDog76 · 14-10-2017 11:13AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Youre making the mistake of implying that a criticism of religion equates to a criticism of its followers.

Deleted User wrote: »

This, however, is essentially the old bigoted line of Paisley and his followers: 'We don't hate Catholics; we hate their religion'. Shudder. There's a very, very, very fine line between that ostensible nuance and burning three little boys alive with a petrol bomb. Once you demean people as being lesser than you for their beliefs, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to justify doing much worse to them. They're not fully rational - or, in Irish history terms, they're 'superstitious popish natives'.

It's a basic lesson from history that's definitely not being learned by the more vociferous of the self-styled "atheists", many of whom at least online possess an anti-Catholic venom that would be firmly at home at a Free Presbyterian Church meeting led by Ian Paisley in 1965.

And I wouldn't have much time for the RCC and its collaboration with the British Empire in this country or its fee-charging Catholic schools in Dublin aping English private schools in their sporting and intellectual culture in 2017. Their English Ireland has never been worth fighting for, and never will be. Then again, I'm coming from a much older Gaelic/western seaboard/republican/socialist/anti-clerical/ cultural nationalist tradition in this country that would have no truck with the West Brit politics of "Atheist Ireland" and its republican-hating self-styled leader. A huge number of the self-styled "atheists" online are fly-by-night fashion followers who wouldn't have had the backbone or spirit to stand up against the Roman Catholic Church when it was a genuinely powerful force, on behalf of say the teacher Eileen Flynn in 1982. It takes no courage to take the RCC on now. None. Absolutely zero.

Anti-clericalism has existed in Ireland for much longer than these people have, although they'd like to give the impression that it was all darkness before "atheists" arrived to enlighten us poor benighted souls. It took genuine courage then:

Jim Gralton (1886-1945)

Wow .......... suicide circus just got slammed! Hard!!

suicide_circus · 14-10-2017 11:15AM

If you decide that your religion is the same as your identity and that any criticism or mockery of the beliefs held by that religion are therefore criticism or mockery of you well I'm sorry but tough sh*t.

I have friends and family to whom religion is extremely dearly held and I would never take the piss out of that. It provides them with untold comfort and strength. I will always love and respect these people but to ask me to respect ideas that my own brain and conscience reject as absurdity is simply asking too much.

eviltwin · 14-10-2017 11:17AM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

It shouldn't be illegal, the state has no business telling parents what they can or can't do re their faith and passing that onto their children. There is free will so a child can choose to ignore it all anyway as many of us did ourselves.

I personally see religion as a force of evil and manage to live a happier life without it and as a result my children don't have any faith. My youngest has never been in a church, he's 7. He doesn't know anything about God and thinks Jesus is a swear word. He's free to convert if he wants though, his choice.

beefburrito · 14-10-2017 11:35AM

It's actually refreshing to see some people can actually have a civil debate and can see that the emperor's in the nip again.

Being a pagan,I have my own beliefs and I think Christian's have their own right to exist...
Atheism is a spin off of the abrahamic religion's.

Paganism is as ancient as the oldest yew tree and as modern as the hawthorn berry which fell there just now....

Atheism is just an identity without any substantial grounding.

server down · 14-10-2017 11:37AM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, as long as consumerist indoctrination of children is also made illegal.

Yeh. People always notice the old indoctrination’s don’t they.

suicide_circus · 14-10-2017 11:39AM

MadDog76 wrote: »

Wow .......... suicide circus just got slammed! Hard!!

Can I just say, I oppose the question posed by the OP and that I wouldn't not identify myself as an atheist.

A Little Pony · 14-10-2017 11:40AM

Yeah ban religious indoctrination but allow political indoctrination via state broadcasting on RTE/BBC and the multiple news channels in America which side with either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party which are nothing more than propaganda channels designed to influence voters from those bases and anyone tuning in.

So why should religious indoctrination be banned but not political indoctrination? It's such a boring old Atheistic argument.

server down · 14-10-2017 11:41AM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

My point is that the state should not be funding any school which subscribed to a certain religion. Do you have difficulty understanding this?

And yet what effect did this indoctrination have on you? How did the indoctrination affect the gay marriage referendum? How many religious taught you?

Catholic schools are pretty much mostly academic these days. That said I agree about communion - however that’s just another consumerist orgy these days.

Pwindedd · 14-10-2017 11:46AM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Yeah ban religious indoctrination but allow political indoctrination via state broadcasting on RTE/BBC and the multiple news channels in America which side with either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party which are nothing more than propaganda channels designed to influence voters from those bases and anyone tuning in.

So why should religious indoctrination be banned but not political indoctrination? It's such a boring old Atheistic argument.

Because we don't sit children down and make them watch RTE news?

That was a lazy comparison on your part.

A Little Pony · 14-10-2017 11:52AM

Pwindedd wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Yeah ban religious indoctrination but allow political indoctrination via state broadcasting on RTE/BBC and the multiple news channels in America which side with either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party which are nothing more than propaganda channels designed to influence voters from those bases and anyone tuning in.

So why should religious indoctrination be banned but not political indoctrination? It's such a boring old Atheistic argument.

Because we don't sit children down and make them watch RTE news?

That was a lazy comparison on your part.

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

eviltwin · 14-10-2017 11:54AM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

RTE news isn't aimed at kids, neither are party political broadcasts.

Pwindedd · 14-10-2017 12:01PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

And most ADULTS are able to decipher this nonsense and make their own decisions based on their beliefs, either political or religious. Children's education on the other hand should be unbiased and free from agenda. It really is that simple.

A Little Pony · 14-10-2017 12:08PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

And most ADULTS are able to decipher this nonsense and make their own decisions based on their beliefs, either political or religious. Children's education on the other hand should be unbiased and free from agenda. It really is that simple.

Everyone and everything has an agenda, be it religious, social and political.

beefburrito · 14-10-2017 12:08PM

Just saying there's no point in forwarding this thread to the Atheism and Agnosticism forum.

Because most of us would have infractions and a ban at this stage.

So keeping it here is much better, it's going well as it is.

beauf · 14-10-2017 12:08PM

I feel sorry for Santa and St Paddy

server down · 14-10-2017 12:14PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Pwindedd wrote: »

And most ADULTS are able to decipher this nonsense and make their own decisions based on their beliefs, either political or religious. Children's education on the other hand should be unbiased and free from agenda. It really is that simple.

Most adults think what they are supposed to think. I mean half of all Americans thought the Iraq war was a good idea at the time. Many more thought Iraq did 9/11.

server down · 14-10-2017 12:15PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

beefburrito wrote: »

Just saying there's no point in forwarding this thread to the Atheism and Agnosticism forum.

Because most of us would have infractions and a ban at this stage.

So keeping it here is much better, it's going well as it is.

They don't like contradiction over there, for sure.

server down · 14-10-2017 12:16PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

eviltwin wrote: »

RTE news isn't aimed at kids, neither are party political broadcasts.

You know what is aimed at kids though, advertisements. My otherwise kind and generous nieces and nephews can go wild for money, and whatever fad is out there.

Pwindedd · 14-10-2017 12:18PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Can I just say, I oppose the question posed by the OP and that I wouldn't not identify myself as an atheist.

Agreed. I didn't answer the poll because of this. Whilst technically I'm an Atheist person, I don't identify as atheist. It's not a movement or a group in my eyes. It's simply just not believing in a god and having the freedom to do that and allow others to believe what they want. I do have these freedoms as an adult in Ireland I might add.

Our children should be afforded these same privileges

If ...

92% of schools in Ireland are Catholic.
78% of people in Ireland identify as Catholic

...Then You don't have to be a genius to see that there's some disparity there and it's growing every year.

eviltwin · 14-10-2017 12:30PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

server down wrote: »

You know what is aimed at kids though, advertisements. My otherwise kind and generous nieces and nephews can go wild for money, and whatever fad is out there.

If parents are happy to let their child watch adverts so what? If you don't want your kids exposed to that there is an off button.

14-10-2017 12:40PM

I don't know about illegal but it should certainly be removed from schools. The places that enforce a school uniform during communion and a number of weeks requirement attending mass before communion show just how interested a number of them really are. Or aren't, rather

beauf · 14-10-2017 01:33PM

Many kids aren't interested in School Work or Exercise either.

I don't think religion should be schools either. But kids not being interested is a dubious metric.

14-10-2017 01:35PM

beauf wrote: »

Many kids aren't interested in School Work or Exercise either.

I don't think religion should be schools either. But kids not being interested is a dubious metric.

The parents, not the children. It's all super important when no effort is involved or dressing up only

_Dara_ · 14-10-2017 01:42PM

Lorenzo Clever Chinchilla wrote: »

Why not? The state uses tax payers money to fund schools. The majority of people in Ireland are catholic and want their children brought up as Catholics and schooled in catholic schools so of course the state should be funding catholic schools with the tax payers money. I would have a serious problem if the state even considered not funding catholic schools, not that it has a hope of happening.

78% of the country is Catholic, weighted towards people whose children are grown up. Among the cohort who have school-going children, it’s closer to 50% as far as I recall.

Should religious indoctrination of children be illegal?

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