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Census 2016

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13

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    #62
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So the bottom line is that the overwhelming of the population are religious.
    the bottom line is that the majority of the population identified with a particular religion in the census.

    this does not mean they are 'religious', not in the common usage of the word. my dad would have marked himself as catholic, but he's not a religious man.


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    #63
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,140 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the bottom line is that the majority of the population identified with a particular religion in the census.

    this does not mean they are 'religious', not in the common usage of the word. my dad would have marked himself as catholic, but he's not a religious man.


    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.


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    #64
    ginger_hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭ginger_hammer


    'No Religion' is the fastest growing category, excellent. Also with population age demographics it will only increase in the next census.


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    #65
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Labelling oneself Catholic in Ireland is far more of a badge of ethnicity in most cases than a statement of actual belief.


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    #66
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.

    FYP. After all, you're the one that questioned whether some of the clergy were actually believers. What most Irish Catholics believe we simply don't know as we haven't asked them. We do know that they don't hold Rome as the highest moral authority as the majority voted in favour of same sex marriage against Rome's wishes. A similar effect can be seen with respect to contraception, use of the morning after pill, and for no small few, abortion. So putting down Catholic on the census form is not a reliable indicator of a persons beliefs, merely how they identify themselves.


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    #67
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    Suggestion submitted - I guess they'll at least review it and maybe come up with a question that would give a true statistic for the religious nature of people of Ireland.


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    #68
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    yeppydeppy wrote: »
    Suggestion submitted - I guess they'll at least review it and maybe come up with a question that would give a true statistic for the religious nature of people of Ireland.

    In some ways I think the census, if it is to be used as a decision making tool, should actually be asking more about the population's secular preferences rather than religious identity. The pertinent information is what proportion of the population want the the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals. I imagine a lot of people still do, but that they amount to a far smaller percentage than those that identify as religious. The recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital would tend to support this assertion.


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    #69
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,140 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    yeppydeppy wrote: »
    Suggestion submitted - I guess they'll at least review it and maybe come up with a question that would give a true statistic for the religious nature of people of Ireland.


    What was your suggestion? not that it matters a whole pile as most suggestions coming from minority groups get kicked to one side .


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    #70
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    offaly is the most catholic county in ireland:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/it-s-official-offaly-is-the-most-catholic-county-d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-the-least-1.3253668
    But Dun Laoghaire is awfully protestant.


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    #71
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.

    As someone who put down No Religion for the first time, it actually took a bit of work to do it. Residual Catholic guilt was probably part of it, and my law-abiding ways that weren't sure if I -could- put down not-Catholic when I was baptised into that religion (that swung me the time before).

    I would be cautious about ascribing religious belief to someone you know only by the sentence you responded to, which, for a start, specified he was not religious, which generally indicates "not a believer".


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    #72
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    But Dun Laoghaire is awfully protestant.

    You need to walk up the hill to the Noggin at bit more often ;)


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    #73
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    OK, but your dad marked himself as Catholic so therefore he regards himself as belonging to a religion and is a believer.

    Again a huge presumption on your part.

    One does not need to be a believer to be able to tick catholic. I could quite legitimately tick catholic and I've been an atheist all my adult life.

    Anyway you're really not very good at this spin thing :p try talking to an archbishop for some tips!
    smacl wrote: »
    The pertinent information is what proportion of the population want the the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals.

    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #74
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    recedite wrote: »
    But Dun Laoghaire is awfully protestant.
    i hope you are not suggesting that 'it is awful, the extent to which dun Laoghaire is protestant'.


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    #75
    snowflaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭snowflaker


    Here's Offaly breakdown. NR is up 80%



    Religion 2016
    Roman Catholic 67849
    No religion 3520
    Other stated religion (nec) 2630
    Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant) 2300
    Not stated 1412
    Methodist, Wesleyan 144
    Presbyterian 97
    Jewish 9


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    #76
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,140 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I could quite legitimately tick catholic and I've been an atheist all my adult life.

    /QUOTE]


    So what? Of course you could. Are you suggesting that those who ticked catholic or any other religion are in fact atheists! :D


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    #77
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,680 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?


    By your own standards -

    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Again a huge presumption on your part.


    The point was the proportion of the population want the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals, and I would suggest that quite a significant proportion of those people have children, and have relations who have children, and they are thinking of their children, and their future generations of children, not yours, in influencing how state funded institutions like schools and hospitals are run.

    smacl wrote: »
    In some ways I think the census, if it is to be used as a decision making tool, should actually be asking more about the population's secular preferences rather than religious identity. The pertinent information is what proportion of the population want the the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals. I imagine a lot of people still do, but that they amount to a far smaller percentage than those that identify as religious. The recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital would tend to support this assertion.


    I wouldn't agree that the recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital is indicative of a whole lot really. 80,000, hell I'll even be generous and say 100,000 people is not a whole lot in terms of the percentage of the adult population of Ireland who don't particularly appear to care one way or the other about whether or not the church is involved in state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals.


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    #78
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    By your own standards

    What presumption are you claiming I made, exactly?
    The point was the proportion of the population want the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals, and I would suggest that quite a significant proportion of those people have children, and have relations who have children, and they are thinking of their children, and their future generations of children, not yours, in influencing how state funded institutions like schools and hospitals are run.

    So what. Why should people whose children are grown up, or who have never had any get a say in how our schools are run? There's more of them than there are parents of school-going age children. I couldn't give two shits frankly about what Holy Joe down the road thinks about keeping 'the church' in control of schools, and why should I have to?
    I wouldn't agree that the recent debacle surrounding the new maternity hospital is indicative of a whole lot really. 80,000, hell I'll even be generous and say 100,000 people is not a whole lot in terms of the percentage of the adult population of Ireland who don't particularly appear to care one way or the other about whether or not the church is involved in state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals.

    Right. So if they don't turn up at a particular place on a particular day to voice their discontent, they clearly don't care about the issue at all. Logic.

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #79
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So what? Of course you could. Are you suggesting that those who ticked catholic or any other religion are in fact atheists! :D

    A survey commissioned by the RCC a couple of years ago suggests that about 10% of self-described 'catholics' don't actually believe in god.

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #80
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,680 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    What presumption are you claiming I made, exactly?


    The assumption that the only part of the population who want the church involved in the running of schools must be either OAPs or people who will never have children.

    So what. Why should people whose children are grown up, or who have never had any get a say in how our schools are run? There's more of them than there are parents of school-going age children. I couldn't give two shits frankly about what Holy Joe down the road thinks about keeping 'the church' in control of schools, and why should I have to?


    Because education is provided for by the state, is the obvious answer to that one, the church is providing a service to the state, and for that service they are funded by the state. That means that every citizen over the age of 18, whether they're a parent themselves or not, has a say in influencing how our education system is run. You personally aren't obliged to give two shìts for their opinion, but the Government does.

    Right. So if they don't turn up at a particular place on a particular day to voice their discontent, they clearly don't care about the issue at all. Logic.


    I was referring to the number of people who didn't even have to turn up on a particular day to voice their discontent, they simply signed an online petition, and after checking, the final figure was just over 103,000, still only a small percentage of the adult population of Ireland. That's the number of people who actually went to the bother of actively registering their discontent online. I doubt all of them were parents either or given that it was a maternity hospital, would ever be pregnant themselves, so their opinion should be discounted... and that's using your logic.


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    #81
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,140 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    A survey commissioned by the RCC a couple of years ago suggests that about 10% of self-described 'catholics' don't actually believe in god.


    A survey by the same group found that almost 50% of those professing to be atheist did not know the difference between Atheist and Agnostic.


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    #82
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The point was the proportion of the population want the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals

    Of course a census asking what religion people identify with does not tell us ANYTHING about whether they want "the church to have any involvement in running state funded institutions such as schools and hospitals". THAT would be an assumption without basis.

    Even if 100% of the population marked that they identify as catholic on the census, that does not mean even ONE person wants the church to have said influence.


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    #83
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    It will be amusing some day to hear the reactions of the "we're still the biggest so we get to say how the country is run" when Catholicism eventually drops below 50%.


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    #84
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?
    as someone who doesn't have kids, and has no plans to, i definitely do have a say in how this country is run, and that includes how the education system is run; i would resent any suggestion that it's none of my business.


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    #85
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Again a huge presumption on your part.

    One does not need to be a believer to be able to tick catholic. I could quite legitimately tick catholic and I've been an atheist all my adult life.

    Anyway you're really not very good at this spin thing :p try talking to an archbishop for some tips!



    Hmm so OAPs and people who will never have kids get to influence how our schools for future children are run?

    Strange post. If you clicked catholic as an atheist (and apparently a fairly militant one) are you not part of the problem?

    And of course OAPs and people without children get a vote.


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    #86
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Samaris wrote: »
    It will be amusing some day to hear the reactions of the "we're still the biggest so we get to say how the country is run" when Catholicism eventually drops below 50%.

    As an atheist born into an atheistic family I am happy with the status quo. For two reasons:

    1 - despite the claimed oppression here most of these schools have no religious teachers and as much religious teaching as is mandated by law. Basically they are academic.
    2 - the church losing power or ownership may mean that the local authorities merge schools losing whatever academic ethos was there and creating the comprehensive model. The British model sucks.

    However these schools shouldn’t be able to discriminate on religion or any other reason except locality.


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    #87
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,140 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Samaris wrote: »
    It will be amusing some day to hear the reactions of the "we're still the biggest so we get to say how the country is run" when Catholicism eventually drops below 50%.

    Can't wait, roll on 2097!


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    #88
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    I suggested: Are you religious yes / no
    Do you practice a religion? yes / no
    If yes, please state your religion:_______


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    #89
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Funny to see the usual suspects here, in AH and Twitter, still trying to spin this as "Catholicism is still the biggest! The church in Ireland has never been stronger or more engaged!"

    Or trying to call nonsense on the figures by saying that "80% of a small number is still a small number!"

    The reality is that people are leaving the traditional Christian churches in their droves. This isn't a case of more Muslims or Hindus coming into the country, it's people walking away from Christian churches.

    Full numbers below. The "change" is absolute change in population terms. That is, what percentage of the overall population "converted" to that category in the last five years.

    The figures are unspinnable. Catholicism saw an actual, real decline of 28,000 followers per year over the period. Coincidentally there are about 30,000 deaths in Ireland per year, of which 90% are over 55 :pac:

    It is the largest and fastest drop in Catholicism since census records begin. And it isn't a simple linear drop - the rate of catholiclessness is increasing. If the acceleration of this drop continues, you're looking at around 68% Catholic in the 2021 census, and then being within touching distance of 50% by 2026.

    |2011|%|2016|%|Change %
    No religion|256830|5.68|451941|9.64|3.96
    Not stated|68668|1.52|119349|2.54|1.03
    Orthodox (Greek, Coptic, Russian)|44003|0.97|60777|1.3|0.32
    Muslim (Islamic)|48130|1.06|62032|1.32|0.26
    Lapsed (Roman) Catholic|1268|0.03|8094|0.17|0.14
    Evangelical|3972|0.09|9368|0.2|0.11
    Atheist|3751|0.08|7477|0.16|0.08
    Hindu|10302|0.23|13729|0.29|0.07
    Spiritualist|0|0|2922|0.06|0.06
    Born Again Christian|0|0|2565|0.05|0.05
    Agnostic|3393|0.07|5006|0.11|0.03
    Other stated religion (nec)|17897|0.4|19454|0.41|0.02
    Buddhist|8355|0.18|9358|0.2|0.01
    Pagan, Pantheist|1883|0.04|2645|0.06|0.01
    Baptist|3219|0.07|3642|0.08|0.01
    Jehovah's Witness|6024|0.13|6264|0.13|0
    Protestant|4263|0.09|4269|0.09|0
    Methodist, Wesleyan|6280|0.14|5847|0.12|-0.01
    Lutheran|5048|0.11|4549|0.1|-0.01
    Apostolic or Pentecostal|13876|0.31|13193|0.28|-0.03
    Presbyterian|22835|0.5|22188|0.47|-0.03
    Christian (Not Specified)|39652|0.88|35996|0.77|-0.11
    Church of Ireland, England, Anglican, Episcopalian|124445|2.75|122612|2.61|-0.14
    Roman Catholic|3831187|84.66|3696644|78.82|-5.84


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    #90
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    A survey by the same group found that almost 50% of those professing to be atheist did not know the difference between Atheist and Agnostic.

    The survey Hotblack is talking about was of Catholic parents, so what are you talking about?


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    #91
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    server down wrote: »
    As an atheist born into an atheistic family I am happy with the status quo. For two reasons:

    1 - despite the claimed oppression here most of these schools have no religious teachers and as much religious teaching as is mandated by law. Basically they are academic.
    2 - the church losing power or ownership may mean that the local authorities merge schools losing whatever academic ethos was there and creating the comprehensive model. The British model sucks.

    However these schools shouldn’t be able to discriminate on religion or any other reason except locality.

    Also an atheist with atheist parents and two atheist children now in second level education. With respect to the points you raise;

    My opinion is the status quo is rotten as it is discriminatory to the point that it has been commented on by the UN and various human rights groups such as Amnesty. It also discriminates against teachers who are not religious, and leaves many students and teachers alike having to pretend to be religious to get into their only local state funded school.

    Where exactly is religious teaching mandated in law? There is no religion class in ET primary or secondary schools that I'm aware of.

    Removing the running of the schools from the church does not imply adopting the school system in the UK. Having one child in an ET secondary school and the other in a Catholic ethos school, I am firmly of the opinion that the ET school offers a more rounded education and better preparation for the society we live in.


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