Irish Water pushing ahead with privatisation of Water Infrastructure on the DL?

Don't Chute! · 07-10-2017 10:52PM

end of the road wrote: »

wrong, it's nothing to do with unions. unions and lazy workers exist within the private sector as well as the public sector.

they all ready work. if they didn't they wouldn't be in their job. there are no plants operated by 22 people unless 22 people are what is required to operate those plants. your inaccuracies about council workers are just that.

You go by what you want to believe, I'll go by what I've seen.

end of the road · 07-10-2017 11:19PM

Don't Chute! wrote: »

You go by what you want to believe, I'll go by what I've seen.

no i will go with facts and common sense.

irishfeen · 07-10-2017 11:26PM

Don't Chute! wrote: »

You go by what you want to believe, I'll go by what I've seen.

I have seen and witnessed from all sides - caretakers, council engineers, IW engineers, council waste, IW waste, water production, water quality, water distribution, mains upgrades by both council and private entities...

In my view there are one group of experts in water in Ireland - the council ground staff and engineers in terms of water quality... water quality is their baby. Plants and their operations too.

We can argue about mains and distribution upgrades but IMO you do not understand the responsibility a caretaker has in ensuring the water babies and the sick are drinking is safe - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. The councils are FAR from perfect but they know what they are doing in terms of keeping the population safe.

Victor · 07-10-2017 11:33PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Approx 99.5%+ total water quality compliance from the councils

This is only with the larger networks. Smaller ones are appalling. Note the regular boil notices over the last few years.

Networks are in a bad way but water quality standards are world class. Maybe private companies can continue these standards but if your sole purpose is to make money then it’s open to question.

The private companies know they can only make money if they are compliant. Councils and council staff get paid whether the water is good or bad.

flutered wrote: »

councils were deprived of funding from 2011

Problems existed long before 2011.

irishfeen · 07-10-2017 11:38PM

Victor wrote: »

This is only with the larger networks. Smaller ones are appalling. Note hte regular boil notices over the last few years.

The private companies know they can only make money if they are compliant. Councils and council staff get paid whether the water is good or bad.

No they do not! Caretakers will be taken out of plants if they cannot run them - how exactly do you mean water being “bad”?

Smaller schemes almost exclusively come from historic group schemes with the councils after upgrading the network to include Chlorine dosing and UV units. The boil water notices are done for the safety of people - do you not appreciate the fact that the councils are testing the water to ensure safety?

Don't Chute! · 08-10-2017 08:59AM

end of the road wrote: »

no i will go with facts and common sense.

Everyone on Boards knows that will never happen.

Don't Chute! · 08-10-2017 09:06AM

irishfeen wrote: »

I have seen and witnessed from all sides - caretakers, council engineers, IW engineers, council waste, IW waste, water production, water quality, water distribution, mains upgrades by both council and private entities...

In my view there are one group of experts in water in Ireland - the council ground staff and engineers in terms of water quality... water quality is their baby. Plants and their operations too.

We can argue about mains and distribution upgrades but IMO you do not understand the responsibility a caretaker has in ensuring the water babies and the sick are drinking is safe - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. The councils are FAR from perfect but they know what they are doing in terms of keeping the population safe.

Ok I think it's pretty obvious now that you are connected in some way to some council or other so nothing i say to you will change your mind. You also have End of the Road on your side too so that speaks volumes. Your experience of these plants seems to be standing outside the fence and looking in so we'll leave it there ok?

08-10-2017 09:12AM

stampydmonkey wrote: »

There are 3500 water staff... They join IW on the same or similar terms or they stay with the council.... And continue doing little to nothing!

For years we had a burst water pipe on our road. This happened regularly in the exact same place. Council came out every time and spent a day “fixing “ it only for it to burst again a few months later.
Then, early one morning, along came Irish Water. They spent a few hours on the job and we’ve never had a problem since. FACT.

Donal55 · 08-10-2017 09:32AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For years we had a burst water pipe on our road. This happened regularly in the exact same place. Council came out every time and spent a day “fixing “ it only for it to burst again a few months later.
Then, early one morning, along came Irish Water. They spent a few hours on the job and we’ve never had a problem since. FACT.

And i'd say it was probably the same crew except that this time they had the right fitting and equipment.

08-10-2017 09:34AM

Donal55 wrote: »

And i'd say it was probably the same crew except that this time they had the right fitting and equipment.

They were a private company. Arrived at 7am and were done by 10am. Council workers would only be arriving then!

McMurphy · 08-10-2017 09:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

They were a private company. Arrived at 7am and were done by 10am. Council workers would only be arriving then!

This would be the same incompetent, inept council the very same people would be shilling for regards the LPT

(Isn't that who it is ringfenced for?)

Donal55 · 08-10-2017 09:45AM

irishfeen wrote: »

A memo has been released to County Council Union shop stewards working in the Water departments yesterday on behalf of SIPTU, IMPACT, UNITE, TEEU & LAPO.

Irish Water are looking to break a Service Level Agreement agreed with the public service and want to take full control making "Significant" changes to how the Water infrastructure is run in Ireland - looks like taking county councils completely out of the equation in favour of private companies given operation contracts.

"Irish Water announced that they wish to make significant changes to the way water services are delivered. In short they announced that the Board of Ervia (the parent company of Irish Water) had decided that they would not be entering into a further service level agreement with local authorities and that they wished to exit the current service level agreements prior to the expiry date of 2025, preferably in 2021. Irish Water further announced that they had informed the Minister of this and the Minister had noted their decision

In response the unions said that this announcement would create a lot of uncertainty and anger amongst the staff of Local Authorities and it would add to anxiety about the future ownership of Irish Water"

Have seen nothing in the press today about this very worrying development, you would have to wonder how private companies (who are out to make money full stop) can be good in terms of the tax payer. At least the local authorities sole job was providing a service, trying to make profits on the backs of tax payers is going to be hard to stomach.

Anyway, going back to the first post, all thats happening here is that this SLA is being finished 4 years earlier.

Those waterworks caretakers and egrs will more than likely now get an enhanced redundandcy package or may probably be offered other roles within the LAs on their current t&cs considering councils are in the main understaffed.

Jack O Connor and Siptu were quite happy to cosy up to the Govt last time round in relation to IW.
Can't say i'd lose too much sleep now if O'Connor and Siptu were now to have the rug pulled from under them.

wordofwarning · 08-10-2017 09:51AM

elperello wrote: »

Water is not like other utilities.

Correct. Most utilities here are highly regulated and properly managed. Water services here were highly unprofessional and a hazard to public safety. The Local Authorities were doing such an amazing job managing the utility that tens of thousands were boiling their water, which is something to you expect in the third world, not one of the richest countries in Europe...

elperello wrote: »

In order to protect sources of water supplies requires a broad community effort.

True, but Irish farmers are still dumping millions of tons of chemicals, slurry etc that is all getting into the drinking water supply. But the only thing we really need to worry about is an evil corporation who might ensure water is safe...

elperello wrote: »

It is one utility that should never be privatised.

Why? You have failed to make a single solid point in your comment. Well I have yet to meet anyone opposed to the privatisation of water services having a solid point...

Why shouldn't it be privatised? Do you honestly think it is acceptable that in 2017 that Irish people are boiling water from their tap as it is not safe to drink? The answer is no. The solution is the privatisation of the management of water services. The state will still own the pipes, plants etc.

It is just the lazy and incompetent council workers will not be running the plants

08-10-2017 10:05AM

This may not be popular but I would like to be able to pay for a world class water service, but not if it is 1) privately owned/not owned by the state, and 2) marked by inefficiency as a result of dodgy contracts given to all sorts of consultant and business shítehawks who support the government of the day.

On both counts, the Blueshirts failed and managed to have some 1500 more people working for Irish Water than were needed. They didn't care, of course, because the bill for their largesse to "the lads" was going to be put on the public. The protestors were 100% correct to resist this.

The protestors are equally 100% incorrect to resist the establishment of an efficient water system which financially punishes us for wasting this environmental resource and financially rewards us for using it responsibly. Water is, of course, free. Put your bucket out and collect it. Or, get a water diviner out and drill your own well. That environmental consciousness is respectable. If, however, you want a treated, healthy water service piped to your home, you will have to pay and stop being a parasite on environmentally responsible citizens. It's a service. It costs money.

ted1 · 08-10-2017 10:07AM

irishfeen wrote: »

A memo has been released to County Council Union shop stewards working in the Water departments yesterday on behalf of SIPTU, IMPACT, UNITE, TEEU & LAPO.

Irish Water are looking to break a Service Level Agreement agreed with the public service and want to take full control making "Significant" changes to how the Water infrastructure is run in Ireland - looks like taking county councils completely out of the equation in favour of private companies given operation contracts.

"Irish Water announced that they wish to make significant changes to the way water services are delivered. In short they announced that the Board of Ervia (the parent company of Irish Water) had decided that they would not be entering into a further service level agreement with local authorities and that they wished to exit the current service level agreements prior to the expiry date of 2025, preferably in 2021. Irish Water further announced that they had informed the Minister of this and the Minister had noted their decision

In response the unions said that this announcement would create a lot of uncertainty and anger amongst the staff of Local Authorities and it would add to anxiety about the future ownership of Irish Water"

Have seen nothing in the press today about this very worrying development, you would have to wonder how private companies (who are out to make money full stop) can be good in terms of the tax payer. At least the local authorities sole job was providing a service, trying to make profits on the backs of tax payers is going to be hard to stomach.

LAs have no incentive to Save money and often end up spending over the odds on simple repairs etc. A private company ca often do the sane job fir less money

irishfeen · 08-10-2017 10:20AM

Don't Chute! wrote: »

Ok I think it's pretty obvious now that you are connected in some way to some council or other so nothing i say to you will change your mind. You also have End of the Road on your side too so that speaks volumes. Your experience of these plants seems to be standing outside the fence and looking in so we'll leave it there ok?

Experience of the plants are anything but standing outside and looking in water, Wastewater and distribution networks - you want to leave it there because you cannot accept the responsibility the council has and its success in keeping standards so good..

You seem to be very slack with info yourself.. where was the 22 council staff in water production at a single plant?

irishfeen · 08-10-2017 10:24AM

ted1 wrote: »

LAs have no incentive to Save money and often end up spending over the odds on simple repairs etc. A private company ca often do the sane job fir less money

To be honest I do agree that mains restoration is a major problem for the councils... in relation to that I do think private entities are needed.

But as for the management of plants it is very risky territory to take plants off staff that have successfully ran them for 10-30 years, in a lot of cases these workers are they only ones who actually knows the locations and conditions of the mains on their scheme.

end of the road · 08-10-2017 10:48AM

wordofwarning wrote: »

Why? You have failed to make a single solid point in your comment. Well I have yet to meet anyone opposed to the privatisation of water services having a solid point...

those against the privatization of water have given plenty of arguments, but the privatize everything brigade's ideaological dogma mean they will never accept the reality.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Why shouldn't it be privatised? Do you honestly think it is acceptable that in 2017 that Irish people are boiling water from their tap as it is not safe to drink? The answer is no.

because if it was privatized the bills would have to rise hugely to insure proffitability of the companies. investment would have to go or be limited also.

wordofwarning wrote: »

The solution is the privatisation of the management of water services. The state will still own the pipes, plants etc.

wrong, the solution is the leaving of it in public hands. privatization is expensive and unaffordable.

wordofwarning wrote: »

It is just the lazy and incompetent council workers will not be running the plants

the vast vast majority of the council workers are not lazy and incompetent. but don't let ideaological dogma and contempt for the public service get in the way of the facts.

ted1 wrote: »

LAs have no incentive to Save money and often end up spending over the odds on simple repairs etc. A private company ca often do the sane job fir less money

often they can't do the same job for less money when it comes to public services as public services make a loss and private companies have to make a profit. the tax payer has a duty to insure private companies operating public services makes a profit hence bills would have to go up.

elperello · 08-10-2017 12:02PM

"Why? You have failed to make a single solid point in your comment. Well I have yet to meet anyone opposed to the privatisation of water services having a solid point..." Quote Wordofwarning

Bit harsh there but no matter I'll elaborate.

My point is that water is not like electricity, gas, phones broadband etc. All those other utilities can be replaced.

Water is a natural resource which is essential for survival on the planet. We only have the water that exists now there is no other place to go for replacement if we mess up what we have.

Protection and management of water is a complex business involving many different stakeholders in areas like health,business, agriculture,tourism,leisure,natural environment,biodiversity etc.

Whatever about outsourcing certain jobs to private companies the overall control of our water resources needs to be vested in our elected government. It's that important.

I hope that is "solid" enough for you!

gctest50 · 08-10-2017 05:48PM

irishfeen wrote: »

................

in a lot of cases these workers are the only ones who actually knows the locations and conditions of the mains on their scheme.

That's a terrible way to run any organization

It should all be mapped

Hotblack Desiato · 08-10-2017 06:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

On both counts, the Blueshirts failed and managed to have some 1500 more people working for Irish Water than were needed.

That's because they were already there, in the featherbedded employment of the inefficient councils.

They didn't care, of course, because the bill for their largesse to "the lads" was going to be put on the public. The protestors were 100% correct to resist this.

Really?? The far left led these protests, they were not going to be calling for 1500 public sector redundancies even though these posts were literally redundant. The lack of a cull on numbers was entirely political - same as when the HSE was set up and there was no clearout of the middle and upper management whose functions were duplicated all over the place in the old health board setup.

The health boards were just as politicised as the VECs and the councils, which is why they were all run in a shambolic fashion and primarily existed to provide jobs for the boys. They have all had name changes/mergers/reorganisations since but little enough appears to have changed for the better.

The protestors are equally 100% incorrect to resist the establishment of an efficient water system which financially punishes us for wasting this environmental resource and financially rewards us for using it responsibly. Water is, of course, free. Put your bucket out and collect it. Or, get a water diviner out and drill your own well. That environmental consciousness is respectable. If, however, you want a treated, healthy water service piped to your home, you will have to pay and stop being a parasite on environmentally responsible citizens. It's a service. It costs money.

This I can fully agree with.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-10-2017 07:14PM

elperello wrote: »

My point is that water is not like electricity, gas, phones broadband etc. All those other utilities can be replaced.

There can only be one electricity wire and one gas pipe into your home, same as water. The function of physically pumping these services into your home is a natural monopoly. The generation of electricity, supply of gas into the network, or even water treatment, are not.

Water is a natural resource which is essential for survival on the planet. We only have the water that exists now there is no other place to go for replacement if we mess up what we have.

Over 80% of the planet's surface is seawater, and the sun constantly distils this into freshwater. Yes we do need to manage it sensibly but in most populated areas of the world there is no shortage.

elperello · 08-10-2017 08:23PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There can only be one electricity wire and one gas pipe into your home, same as water. The function of physically pumping these services into your home is a natural monopoly. The generation of electricity, supply of gas into the network, or even water treatment, are not.

The physical delivery system for electricity and gas as you say are natural monopolies.If push comes to shove you can live without them.
The physical delivery system for water is a monopoly of a natural asset and you will not survive long without it.

Over 80% of the planet's surface is seawater, and the sun constantly distils this into freshwater. Yes we do need to manage it sensibly but in most populated areas of the world there is no shortage.

It's actually 97.5% seawater and the only way you can use this is by desalination which is highly energy consuming.Of the remaining 2.5% about 68% is unavailable being in ice caps and glaciers.
I attach some UN figures which show how little fresh water is actually available.
http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/earth/fresh-water.php

The good news is that we have enough water in this country if we mind it.
My definition of minding it is that we do it for ourselves not farm it out to the private sector.

hmmm · 08-10-2017 08:27PM

elperello wrote: »

My definition of minding it is that we do it for ourselves not farm it out to the private sector.

The evil private sector peoples are not going to steal all our water, would you ever get over yourself. It doesn't matter whether a water plant is run by the public or private sector, it's all the same water - and if the private sector can do it cheaper, then there's no reason not to use them and give the taxpayer some respite.

Actually, maybe we could bottle water from public sector plants and sell it to people who want to pay more for their water untainted by the touch of the private sector?

Hotblack Desiato · 08-10-2017 08:33PM

elperello wrote: »

It's actually 97.5% seawater and the only way you can use this is by desalination which is highly energy consuming.

You have forgotten that rain exists.

end of the road · 08-10-2017 08:52PM

hmmm wrote: »

The evil private sector peoples are not going to steal all our water, would you ever get over yourself. It doesn't matter whether a water plant is run by the public or private sector, it's all the same water - and if the private sector can do it cheaper, then there's no reason not to use them and give the taxpayer some respite.

Actually, maybe we could bottle water from public sector plants and sell it to people who want to pay more for their water untainted by the touch of the private sector?

our water has to be fully public for the greater good. the public sector is the cheapist for water, as it doesn't have to make a profit.

blanch152 · 08-10-2017 09:43PM

irishfeen wrote: »

A memo has been released to County Council Union shop stewards working in the Water departments yesterday on behalf of SIPTU, IMPACT, UNITE, TEEU & LAPO.

Irish Water are looking to break a Service Level Agreement agreed with the public service and want to take full control making "Significant" changes to how the Water infrastructure is run in Ireland - looks like taking county councils completely out of the equation in favour of private companies given operation contracts.

"Irish Water announced that they wish to make significant changes to the way water services are delivered. In short they announced that the Board of Ervia (the parent company of Irish Water) had decided that they would not be entering into a further service level agreement with local authorities and that they wished to exit the current service level agreements prior to the expiry date of 2025, preferably in 2021. Irish Water further announced that they had informed the Minister of this and the Minister had noted their decision

In response the unions said that this announcement would create a lot of uncertainty and anger amongst the staff of Local Authorities and it would add to anxiety about the future ownership of Irish Water"

Have seen nothing in the press today about this very worrying development, you would have to wonder how private companies (who are out to make money full stop) can be good in terms of the tax payer. At least the local authorities sole job was providing a service, trying to make profits on the backs of tax payers is going to be hard to stomach.

What has any of that to do with privatisation?

Erviva is a State-owned company and will continue to own the infrastructure.

The LAs appear to have lost another contract through their constant inefficiency.

Donal55 · 08-10-2017 09:49PM

blanch152 wrote: »

What has any of that to do with privatisation?

Erviva is a State-owned company and will continue to own the infrastructure.

The LAs appear to have lost another contract through their constant inefficiency.

More likely just O'Connor scaremongering.

backspin. · 08-10-2017 09:50PM

This if Fine Gael in action people. When you vote for them you get a constant slide towards privatization.

GreeBo · 08-10-2017 10:05PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You have forgotten that rain exists.

Ok hot shot.
Where does this rain of yours come from?

Irish Water pushing ahead with privatisation of Water Infrastructure on the DL?

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