Brexit discussion thread II

Good evening!

Calina wrote: »

But first things first. You've made the assumption that all people posting and replying to you are male. They are not. I'm female and to be honest, I'm find it depressing in this day and age that you assume that all interlocutors on a message board either all male. I realise you work in IT but so do I and frankly, you have no excuse.

I was replying to murphaph and Jim2007. Both of whom as far as I know are men. I could be wrong.

Calina wrote: »

These negotiations are happening at the level of details and actually identifying what has to be done. Currently, the UK's contribution on Northern Ireland has been wishful thinking about not complying with WTO regulations on a border which per one of their own red lines means that one side will be in the single market and one side will not. There has been discussion about drones. Blue sky thinking. Number plate reading. There is nothing actually tangible here at the level of detail which is required to make anything happen. It's as though someone said "I want a computer system which will do stuff" but no one actually tells you what the stuff is.

It's worth pointing out that the reason why the border can't be dealt with comprehensively is because the European Union won't permit discussions in respect to trade or customs.

The UK are ready and waiting to discuss these matters.

Calina wrote: »

TBH - and I have said this before - this is not so much an offer as something which would be a basic requirement. Again, the transition is in the UK's interest much more than the EU interest. Otherwise they wouldn't be asking for one.

The UK paying for nothing in return simply isn't in Britain's interest. This is why the Florence speech clearly tied payment for the EU budget and outstanding obligations with the transition period. If it doesn't work this way I'd much rather use the money to help handle a no deal scenario.

Calina wrote: »

Really? EU rights are dealt with by the ECJ. I thought that this was off the table as one of May's red lines. I don't see this as a concession. A concession is recognising that the ECJ is the correct court here. I've written before about issues with enforcement of court orders in the UK when the party in contempt is the Home Office.

The terms of the agreement very clearly can be enforced by British courts. British courts are held in high international regard for enforcing law. So much so that third parties use them for settling international disputes.

Part of being separate from the EU is that the ECJ cannot supersede British law. If that happens then the UK hasn't actually left the European Union.

A concession is proposing joint arbitration - this is a reasonable option and has international precedent.

Calina wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Read my point about tying the payment to transitional terms.

Calina wrote: »

This too is a bit meaningless.

Read my point about the ECJ and the UK actually leaving the European Union.

Calina wrote: »

But anyway. You voted remain and yet you have all this leave rhetoric at your finger tips.

I respect democracy. That's why.

I'm highly sceptical of the European Union and it's increasing remit. I was before the referendum also. I voted reluctantly for the status quo, but I realised afterwards that a vote to stay in the European Union isn't a vote for the status quo, it's a vote for more "integration".

Calina wrote: »

I think, when I read your posts, that what I sense more than Leave rhetoric is privilege. You are in the UK, you have the right to vote there. Certain other rights are guaranteed to you by EU legislation and you assume you will never need those rights. One of the best things that the EU brought with it for people was the right to establishment anywhere in the EU provided certain conditions were met. You and many people like you take those conditions for granted in the UK because you're Irish. And you also take it for granted that Brexit won't change the rights you've enjoyed. I find it quite selfish. I think if you were in the same position as many French people, many Polish people who settled in the UK and, broadly, paid their way in the UK - the EU cohort in the UK are more than self financing - your view would be different.

I enjoy living in Britain and I'm thankful for the opportunities I've been conferred.

The basis for the rights that I have in Britain is the Republic of Ireland Act. I'm thankful for that opportunity. In the event that I required a visa I would get one and follow the due process. I'm thankful that I don't have to.

Calina wrote: »

I'm not sure that voicing a view that Irish people who have jobs in the UK who are voicing pro-Brexit opinions are fundamentally self-centred is going to convince you of anything. You don't engage with many of the comments I make.

I don't believe I'm "fundamentally self-centred" for actively contributing to life in the UK. Nor do I believe that anyone who is currently here from the EU should have to leave.

I also understand the concerns that were raised in the referendum.

Calina wrote: »

My life would be very different if the EU had not existed. I might not have studied languages. I might have spent my life living in Dublin. There are people in my life both past and present, the lack of whom would have made me a lesser person. Opportunities have come my way because of freedom of movement, and various policies of the EU in its various guises to foster connections between the different peoples of Europe. I am absolutely certain that my life would have been the poorer for the lack of it and the freedoms and rights it has conferred upon me. That you think you don't benefit from them or don't need to benefit from them in the UK because you're Irish and not, for example French so the risk to you is so much less doesn't change the impact that this has. If the UK is serious about walking away from FOM, this affects thousands of young British people who want that chance. I posted yesterday that I had met some of them. There is a callous disregard for their interests too Yes, there is a lot of discussion about the EU citizens, but it seems to me to be forgotten that many British people are losing out here too.

You seem to forget it was the British people who voted to leave the European Union of their own accord. People will be able to apply for residence by normal channels.

I don't think desiring Britain to take back control of it's own affairs is "callous". I see Brexit as an opportunity to open up to the world at large rather than an opportunity to close in on itself. I respect that you disagree.

Calina wrote: »

The EU and its admin are not perfect. It is, and has always been, in a constant state of evolution. Even if Brexit never happened, I can guarantee that the EU as it is now would be different to the EU as it will be in 10 years' time, and is different to how things were 10 years ago. More ownership of the process has moved to the Parliament which gives the inhabitants of the constituent states of the EU more of a say and more influence in what happens.

The EU and it's institutions are moving towards taking more control from member states. That is why Britain voted to leave. It is moving in a completely different direction to how people wanted it. People wanted more control for nation states to make their own decisions. The European Union was increasingly incompatible with this aspiration. People didn't want important decisions being made about their lives hundreds of miles away but rather in their own parliament by their own MP's.

That's an understandable concern.

Britain was moving in a fundamentally different direction to the European Union since 1992. This is simply a painful realisation of that. Had John Major called a referendum in 1992 it is possible that the British people would have chosen not to join the European Union.

Calina wrote: »

But no administration is perfect and few if any states in the world are in a state of unchanging stasis.

I don't believe I can change your mind because only you can do that.

It isn't about perfection. It's about the very underlying philosophical principles of the European Union. More integration is not the answer. If anything less is.

Yes, I'm afraid you're right. I don't get this passion.

The UK doesn't need to be a member of the European Union to contribute positively in the European continent. Its efforts and initiatives in European defence in the eastern bloc show this clearly.

mountaintop wrote: »

Thank-you for taking the time and effort to write this excellent post. I doubt that Solo will take any heed, unfortunately. I find the man's views exasperating. He has said he is Irish and is an immigrant in the U.K. for over 20 years. Britain leaving the E.U. undermines the vision of a pan European consensus in favour of the blinkered self obsession of the nation state is my view. Solo is flag waving and the flag is not even his own! I really don't get it. Exasperating, as I say.

I grew up in Ireland. I've been in the UK for 6 years. Not 20.

You make it sound like it's somehow sinister to wish that nations should have control over their own affairs. Isn't that what happened in Ireland about 100 years ago?

I find your comments about my nationality inappropriate. I get a warning for asking an innocuous question of people as to why they are passionate about the EU, whereas this is just fine.

Hope that makes sense.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't think desiring Britain to take back control of it's own affairs is "callous". I see Brexit as an opportunity to open up to the world at large rather than an opportunity to close in on itself. I respect that you disagree.

I would agree it is not callous. ThUK is entitled to 'take back control' if it wishes. But anyone arguing that it is an opportunity to open up tot he world at large, or improve its economic situation is dreaming. Economically it is lose lose for UK. But fair enough it can do that.

The Brexit vote passed due to an accumulation of the following :
- anti government protest votes (as we see a in many countries now, in a cut off your nose to spite your face manner. If the govt is for it - they are agin it)
- opportunists in politics, business, or other niche areas who stand individually to gain from Brexit, who either dont care if that is a loss for the UK overall, or are blinkered by their own personal potential gain and cannot see that it is bad or the whole
- empire nostalgists who still have delusions of grandeur on England's place in the world and what it can do if paddling its own canoe
- those with a deep distrust of all matters 'Europe', wogs beginning at Calais, etc, and despite being part of a democratic governance of Europe has sees everything coming from 'Brussels' as imposed upon them by the Germans or the French
- brainless zenophobic, Sun/DailyMail, readers who think every job they see occupied by a non Brit, is a job a Brit should have. So kick the foreigners out and all will be rosy.

There is simply no objective judgement that can conclude that Brexit is good for anyone but a very tiny majority of Brits. It will be very bad for most of the above, but sadly, they dont, and may never, realise that.

And since the vote, a 'well, we voted for it so bloody well must do it now' cohort of masochists has been added.

Nobody truly advocating Brexit has an opinion worth listening to anymore.

I grew up in Ireland. I've been in the UK for 6 years. Not 20.

You make it sound like it's somehow sinister to wish that nations should have control over their own affairs. Isn't that what happened in Ireland about 100 years ago?

I find your comments about my nationality inappropriate. I get a warning for asking an innocuous question of people as to why they are passionate about the EU, whereas this is just fine.

Hope that makes sense.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria[/QUOTE]

I got a warning too, two actually. You have mentioned your nationality more than once. What is your nationality? What comments about your nationality do you find inappropriate? I have never passed comment on your Irishness, assuming that you are Irish. Are you? I have questioned your support for Brexit when you appear to not even be British at all. It's none of your business. That's my issue. By the way, I lived in the U.K. in the 1980s, when being Irish was akin to being a muslim there today. I just have a problem with an Irish immigrant to the U.K. talking the way you do. With all the benefits the E.U. has brought Ireland, the modern infrastructure and economic viability it has provided, you support Brexit but knock the E.U.