Why are we not collecting Apple tax money?

Wheeliebin30 · 04-10-2017 05:09PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Has anyone seen anything tangible that suggests apple paid 12%?

Because the European board say they paid as little as 0.055%

Pure ignorance.

Apple paid 12.5% in Ireland.

Other countries are saying they only paid a fraction of the profits made in other countries through a head office in Ireland.

It's not our problem it's the other countries, let them do something about it.

Apple owe nothing to Ireland in unpaid taxes.

People are so ignorant to actually bother reading the facts.

Infini · 04-10-2017 05:09PM

The whole issue with this is that the whole state aid thing is up for debate big time. Sure its alot of money but the interpretation of the rules then and now seems to be the core issue. The problem is those multinationals who basically gamed the system legally for years are under fire from other countries because of the whole tax avoidance issue both in Europe and North America. It's partially due to getting back taxes to be fair. The problem though with the commission is that they're being extremely vindictive and insisting they're right even though the case is still playing out. It also feels that the goalpost's are being moved in the interpretations to suit one anothers side.

The other problem they seem to forget is that they want Ireland to collect a colossal amount of debatable tax which isn't even certain to be tax. It's far higher than any other judgement as well so I wouldn't be surprised if there's logistical issues about the whole thing.

TheChizler · 04-10-2017 05:15PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Has anyone seen anything tangible that suggests apple paid 12%?

Because the European board say they paid as little as 0.055%

They paid 12.5% to Revenue on profits from Irish sales, nothing to Revenue on profits from European sales. The tiny percentage is a number obtained by averaging a small number of 12.5% profit and a lot of 0% profit. It's a good stat to convince the public that some tiny rate was agreed between the Irish government and Apple but is meaningless when talking about the Irish obligations.

Mr.H · 04-10-2017 05:17PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Apple owe nothing to Ireland in unpaid taxes.

They have their office here therefore it is up to us to collect the tax

You my friend are the one being ignorant

Ipso · 04-10-2017 05:20PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

How so?

Mr.H · 04-10-2017 05:22PM

TheChizler wrote:

They paid 12.5% to Revenue on profits from Irish sales, nothing to Revenue on profits from European sales. The tiny percentage is a number obtained by averaging a small number of 12.5% profit and a lot of 0% profit. It's a good stat to convince the public that some tiny rate was agreed between the Irish government and Apple but is meaningless when talking about the Irish obligations.

But we still allowed them to not pay tax which they should have.

I'm no way in the camp of "it's our money". I do however believe that it was our responsibility just as it was Belgium and Luxemburg's responsibilities with other companies.

We can't hide from this.

If apple don't pay the Ireland coups be forced to. That is my concern. Then it's really about can we afford 13bn?

VinLieger · 04-10-2017 05:24PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

Okay whats your alternative? Also wheres your proof they cost more than they generate?

Wheeliebin30 · 04-10-2017 05:24PM

Mr.H wrote: »

They have their office here therefore it is up to us to collect the tax

You my friend are the one being ignorant

Where is this office you and other country's speak of?

Mr.H · 04-10-2017 05:26PM

Ipso wrote:

How so?

They gave people a false sense of financial security. We have more people in debt because they relied on these jobs that they were told were long term.

I don't mean they literally cost us more but they certainly milked our low tax unto they moved on to a low labour region instead.

Our nation was in less debt on a populous level before dell

Cordell · 04-10-2017 05:27PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

There are Irish grown companies that do exactly what Dell did, they offshore low value add jobs, and sometimes even R&D, to low cost location. We need not to cry after Dell, but look forward to the next FDI that will generate jobs and keep the economy going. And if that means fighting the EU alongside them, then so be it.

iHungry · 04-10-2017 05:27PM

I think we should take the money. We need to get rid of the likes of Microsoft,google,Facebook etc as these are legitimate targets in the next world war. How many nukes might the Russians or Chinese land on all these HQs and data centres?

Ipso · 04-10-2017 05:29PM

Mr.H wrote: »

They gave people a false sense of financial security. We have more people in debt because they relied on these jobs that they were told were long term.

I don't mean they literally cost us more but they certainly milked our low tax unto they moved on to a low labour region instead.

Our nation was in less debt on a populous level before dell

You did hear of the Celtic bubble?

Unfortunately Ireland doesn't have much indigenous industry so we have to rely on large companies. Even though they pay little corporation tax their employees pay paye, prsi etc and they are not on the dole.
Not an ideal situation, but this is the country that convinced itself it was the richest in the world not too long ago.

Specialun · 04-10-2017 05:31PM

Mr.H wrote: »

And how many people in Ireland work for apple?

I'd safely bet it's not 13bn worth

A load of Tosh being spouted that we will lose out in the long term.

The only reason keeping apple happy is Ireland's portfolio looks better to other companies who see we have apple doing business here. Meanwhile we screw home grown companies on tax.

Thousands of jobs in ireland either direct or indirect. If you dont think we dont lose out in the long then I would suggest you sit this one out pal

Specialun · 04-10-2017 05:33PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

Complete garbage

Sam Quentin · 04-10-2017 05:38PM

jobr wrote: »

Because they technically did nothing wrong, so if we were to suddenly start demanding money from them, it would have to be the same for every other large multinational hq'd in Ireland and suddenly there would be nobody left here to provide jobs...

IN A NUTSHELL..
We owe it to these fantastic companies who have provided the people of Ireland with steady and decent paying jobs, and however this whole 'dilemma'(as Europe sees it)pans out they will know that Ireland appreciates the employment they have given us for years.

eeguy · 04-10-2017 05:47PM

Mr.H wrote: »

And how many people in Ireland work for apple?

I'd safely bet it's not 13bn worth

A load of Tosh being spouted that we will lose out in the long term.

The only reason keeping apple happy is Ireland's portfolio looks better to other companies who see we have apple doing business here. Meanwhile we screw home grown companies on tax.

Would you get over yourself.
The only reason MNCs are in Ireland is for the tax breaks.

We can kid ourselves that they're here for our well educated, English speaking workforce, but that's only a side benefit to the millions they save opening offices here.

If we close that off, then we could potentially see a similar Brexit scenario where companies lose the one benefit they're after, and immediately shut up shop and move.
Where else are the 50-150k jobs going to come from? Home grown businesses? Don't make me laugh.

bee06 · 04-10-2017 05:48PM

Mr.H wrote: »

They gave people a false sense of financial security. We have more people in debt because they relied on these jobs that they were told were long term.

I don't mean they literally cost us more but they certainly milked our low tax unto they moved on to a low labour region instead.

Our nation was in less debt on a populous level before dell

There are people who have worked for Apple for 35 years. If that isn't considered long term I dunno what is. I highly doubt Apple will move to be honest given the investment they have put into and are still putting the Cork site.

Ipso · 04-10-2017 05:51PM

eeguy wrote: »

Would you get over yourself.
The only reason MNCs are in Ireland is for the tax breaks.

We can kid ourselves that they're here for our well educated, English speaking workforce, but that's only a side benefit to the millions they save opening offices here.

If we close that off, then we could potentially see a similar Brexit scenario where companies lose the one benefit they're after, and immediately shut up shop and move.
Where else are the 50-150k jobs going to come from? Home grown businesses? Don't make me laugh.

Corporations are the latest oppressor for the perpetually oppressed Irish.

Specialun · 04-10-2017 05:51PM

Mr h doesnt have an absolute notion what his talking about

eeguy · 04-10-2017 05:52PM

Ipso wrote: »

Corporations are the latest oppressor for the perpetually oppressed Irish.

Explain the rationale behind that statement, because I feel very oppressed picking up my huge wage packet each fortnight :rolleyes:

04-10-2017 06:00PM

Where will the companies go to? Aren't they just here because of our tax, EU base, and english speaking educated workforce? If the tax issue is an EU wide thing then why would they leave?

Specialun · 04-10-2017 06:01PM

eeguy wrote: »

Explain the rationale behind that statement, because I feel very oppressed picking up my huge wage packet each fortnight :rolleyes:

I manage a team of 8. Not one person earns below 65k . Poor bastards must feel oppressed to fcuk

McMurphy · 04-10-2017 06:06PM

AlanG wrote: »

Ireland has been asked to collect the money on behalf of yet to be determined tax authorities - so we piss of our multinational investors for possibly no gain to Ireland. The government would be mad to collect the money until all appeals are finished. Control of our taxes is one of the powers the EU is not supposed to have taken so they brought this ruling under competition law. We haven't given control of tax to the EU so why should we do what they say.

yet they want to fix the price of alcohol in offsales, by introducing an MUP, which is obviously different to raising tax on alcohol as this would target gargle across the board, and hit the vintners, who they seem to be at the behest off.

eeguy · 04-10-2017 06:08PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Where will the companies go to? Aren't they just here because of our tax, EU base, and english speaking educated workforce? If the tax issue is an EU wide thing then why would they leave?

Off to Eastern Europe maybe? There's a lot of pharma and medical manufacturing in Ireland that could probably be sent to Croatia or other lower wage countries
Germany and France could take a lot of R&D from Ireland and they have the universities to support it too. If you're looking for English speaking, then Germans, French and Scandinavians have that covered.
We like to think the Irish are somehow special, but we're the same, if not worse than a lot of other countries.

lazybones32 · 04-10-2017 06:11PM

This whole thing stinks. Apple and many others aren't paying anything near their legitimate tax bill, despite utilising every loophole available. The Irish Govt. won't ask for a reasonable payment of tax from them because they give us jobs....but they're here because of the low CT, not out of a love for Ireland or because we're the smartest workers. It shows who's really in charge.

touts · 04-10-2017 06:13PM

Because at the end of the day most of that 13bn will go to the circling vultures that we call our European partners in so called tax harmonisation and bank debt repayments. Far from easing plight of the average Irish citizen that money will be used to build schools and roads in Munich and Marseille so let them do their own dirty work.

eeguy · 04-10-2017 06:18PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

This whole thing stinks. Apple and many others aren't paying anything near their legitimate tax bill, despite utilising every loophole available. The Irish Govt. won't ask for a reasonable payment of tax from them because they give us jobs....but they're here because of the low CT, not out of a love for Ireland or because we're the smartest workers. It shows who's really in charge.

There's no evidence that Apple don't pay their tax bill to Ireland. TheJournal did a fact check last year and could neither prove nor disprove that claim. Neither Apple nor Revenue have to make the actual figures public but Revenue is the only government dept that seems to actually work, so I'd trust them when they say the tax paid was correct

But you're right that they're only here for our low CT. But sure is that such a bad thing. Better that Apple are here than elsewhere.

fxotoole · 04-10-2017 06:25PM

the_syco wrote: »

AFAIK, WE WILL NOT GET THE MONEY ! ! !

The EU wants us to collect the money, and to then give said money to the EU.

The EU will be the only winners. Ireland may also lose Apple.

Bingo.

To quote Aliens VS Predator, whoever wins, we loose.

fxotoole · 04-10-2017 06:29PM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

think of the pay rises we could give to the train drivers in CIE!

F*** the train drivers. If they wanted tech sector level wages, they should gotten off their arses, educated themselves and got into the tech sector. Instead of pissing and moaning about bankruptcy and threatening to strike if they don't get their wages increased.

arayess · 04-10-2017 06:32PM

i like these multinationals as much as the next man but maybe Ireland should develop a strategy to be less reliant on them.,..

Why are we not collecting Apple tax money?

Comments