FTP and cycle racing.

Sinbad_NI · 27-09-2017 11:30AM

I never remember being busted during base phase on TR, workouts seemed very manageable but still gave great FTP/fitness jumps.

Paul_Mc1988 · 27-09-2017 08:58PM

tuxy wrote:

It's not a problems if the reading is too high or low once it's consistent to itself then your workouts will be structured correctly. Do you plan to race next season?

No no plans to race just like to push myself to see how far i can go. Have thought about it though but a few threads regarding A4 and A3s in here put me off. I like my bike too much to put it in unnessisary harms way lol

dahat wrote:

Sweet spot base should have you dying either so adjust up if needs be but only in small increments, 3-5 watts. TrainerRoad is built around base, build and specialty so it's a long plan, don't rush to blow your legs in base. All that suffering will come in good time. Use the VP figure but I'd be fairly confident that it's under what your true ftp is. While using VP just use VP results though.

.

Iv bumped it 22 watts this week and the first workout was rough. Ill see how tomorrow is and adjust accordingly

death1234567 wrote:

When you did your FTP test did you have a fan to cool you down?

Yes have a fan blowing at max stuck right against the front wheel. Its plenty cool

Paul_Mc1988 · 28-09-2017 10:10PM

Shane miller just happened to do a review on the vortex today on his YouTube channel and in comparison to his power meter pedals it actually really accurate. Within 5% on erg which is what trainerroad is operaring on while im training.

Going of his review i am confident my ftp is fairly accurate in a range + or - 5 to 7 percent so ill contine with this new found confidence in the numbers and report back in a few weeks

dahat · 28-09-2017 10:19PM

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Shane miller just happened to do a review on the vortex today on his YouTube channel and in comparison to his power meter pedals it actually really accurate. Within 5% on erg which is what trainerroad is operaring on while im training.

Going of his review i am confident my ftp is fairly accurate in a range + or - 5 to 7 percent so ill contine with this new found confidence in the numbers and report back in a few weeks

Good stuff, enjoy it if you can enjoy TR!

Macy0161 · 29-09-2017 08:24AM

The latest TrainerRoad blog is "how do I know my ftp is right", I think. Popped up in my facebook feed yesterday anyway!

Bambaata · 02-10-2017 09:36PM

There's a sure way of checking but it involves an hour TT ;-)

How are ye all calculating your FTP? I assume 5 all-out, 20 all-out? If you are using that and really struggling with the intensity then you most likely need to adjust down from the 0.95 multiplier to 0.925 or perhaps 0.9

Im hoping to get back to things properly this winter! Have done f all the past 2 to 3 winters now!

py · 02-10-2017 09:44PM

Has anyone tried the step test to calculate FTP?

Miklos · 02-10-2017 10:27PM

py wrote: »

Has anyone tried the step test to calculate FTP?

Is the step test not riding to exhaustion? Wouldn't be any use for calculating what you can sustain over an hour.

crazy_kenny · 03-10-2017 10:55AM

Did the 8 minute FTP test on TrainerRoad on Saturday. I managed 245w on the first 8 minutes and emptied the tank on the second one reaching 255w. New ftp of 225w or 3.57w/kg. This is my highest test to date on an indoor platform.

I've been racing A4 the last 2 seasons with a similar ftp. I've never collected any points. The first season I performed pretty ok staying with the main bunch majority of the time. Last season was a disaster getting dropped every race evening though I had a higher ftp than first year. I put this down to under estimating my ftp at the start of sweet spot base training.

My training time is anywhere form 4 to 6 hours max per week. Due to the limited time available to train, the majority of my training will be spent in the sweet spot range (88%-94%). I'm hoping to push my ftp above 4w/kg by February.

dahat · 03-10-2017 11:42AM

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Did the 8 minute FTP test on TrainerRoad on Saturday. I managed 245w on the first 8 minutes and emptied the tank on the second one reaching 255w. New ftp of 225w or 3.57w/kg. This is my highest test to date on an indoor platform.

I've been racing A4 the last 2 seasons with a similar ftp. I've never collected any points. The first season I performed pretty ok staying with the main bunch majority of the time. Last season was a disaster getting dropped every race evening though I had a higher ftp than first year. I put this down to under estimating my ftp at the start of sweet spot base training.

My training time is anywhere form 4 to 6 hours max per week. Due to the limited time available to train, the majority of my training will be spent in the sweet spot range (88%-94%). I'm hoping to push my ftp above 4w/kg by February.

I won a race at 3.4 w/kg roughly so at your figures i'd be hoping for more than staying with the bunch tbh.
Have you looked at how you race or the races you are choosing?

Paul_Mc1988 · 03-10-2017 11:49AM

py wrote:

Has anyone tried the step test to calculate FTP?

Had a look at this last night on Shane millers (turbo man) youtube channel. Looks very interesting and backed up by a high pool of data. Might give it a go for my next test in 3 weeks time.

harringtonp · 03-10-2017 12:01PM

dahat wrote: »

I won a race at 3.4 w/kg roughly so at your figures i'd be hoping for more than staying with the bunch tbh.
Have you looked at how you race or the races you are choosing?

This year I got two 3rd places in A3 (both from long enough range breaks) with 3.7 W/KG FTP

A low(ish) FTP will work a lot better for you if you have good equipment, are able to hide and then ride at your FTP in the latter part of the race.

DKmac · 03-10-2017 02:34PM

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Did the 8 minute FTP test on TrainerRoad on Saturday. I managed 245w on the first 8 minutes and emptied the tank on the second one reaching 255w. New ftp of 225w or 3.57w/kg. This is my highest test to date on an indoor platform.

I've been racing A4 the last 2 seasons with a similar ftp. I've never collected any points. The first season I performed pretty ok staying with the main bunch majority of the time. Last season was a disaster getting dropped every race evening though I had a higher ftp than first year. I put this down to under estimating my ftp at the start of sweet spot base training.

My training time is anywhere form 4 to 6 hours max per week. Due to the limited time available to train, the majority of my training will be spent in the sweet spot range (88%-94%). I'm hoping to push my ftp above 4w/kg by February.

What are you doing in races? Where are you burning your matches? Where are you positioning yourself in the bunch?What type of races are you struggling in? FTP doesn't tell us if your sprint focused, able to sustain anaerobic efforts for long periods or are focused on grinding a big gear for long efforts.

Daroxtar · 03-10-2017 03:45PM

DKmac wrote: »

FTP doesn't tell us if your sprint focused, able to sustain anaerobic efforts for long periods or are focused on grinding a big gear for long efforts.

^^This. I got destroyed by the guys in my club league who have lower w/kg but higher overall power for bursting away after corners.
I haven't done an FTP in a good while but I put a load of rides into Golden Cheetah recently and it's giving me CP of 271w, FTP of 269. FWIW. I've averaged 267 for an hour on the turbo a few weeks ago whilst training for long climbs. I weigh 73kg so that's close on 3.7w/kg. Going by the figures on this thread I should be OK for racing but I did feck all training for race scenarios, just worked on sustaining threshold efforts for as long as possible to help me get up mountains.

tuxy · 03-10-2017 04:56PM

Daroxtar wrote: »

^^This. I got destroyed by the guys in my club league who have lower w/kg but higher overall power for bursting away after corners.
I haven't done an FTP in a good while but I put a load of rides into Golden Cheetah recently and it's giving me CP of 271w, FTP of 269. FWIW. I've averaged 267 for an hour on the turbo a few weeks ago whilst training for long climbs. I weigh 73kg so that's close on 3.7w/kg. Going by the figures on this thread I should be OK for racing but I did feck all training for race scenarios, just worked on sustaining threshold efforts for as long as possible to help me get up mountains.

I'm worried about these numbers putting people off racing. It was the same last year, I was concerned by some FTP figures I saw here but then surprised by how little effort it took to stay in the bunch.
At the start of the year a few breaks will get away usually by guys who have been cycling for a long time and only started racing now, they are A3 or even A2 standard in an A4 race. After those guys are upgraded it's very unusual for a break to get away. The most important things in A4 is becoming comfortable in the bunch and learning to move your way up at the correct time, that's the way to gain points. To learn this you just have to get out there and race, you can train for it somewhat in club leagues but it's not the same.

Not many people in A4 have power meters but I've seen some report 240/250 watt average over the 2 hours most races take and get into the points. These guys would be fairly average build definitely not super skinny.

DKmac · 03-10-2017 05:02PM

tuxy wrote: »

Not many people in A4 have power meters but I've seen some report 240/250 watt average over the 2 hours most races take and get into the points. These guys would be fairly average build definitely not super skinny.

I race A4 with a PM and rarely see Avg Power for the race go above 200w in fact in a race where I finished 2nd my avg power was 156w.

tuxy · 03-10-2017 05:07PM

DKmac wrote: »

I race A4 with a PM and rarely see Avg Power for the race go above 200w in fact in a race where I finished 2nd my avg power was 156w.

I'd believe it, actually the power of 240/250w came from one of the few hilly ones.

dahat · 03-10-2017 07:23PM

Daroxtar wrote: »

^^This. I got destroyed by the guys in my club league who have lower w/kg but higher overall power for bursting away after corners.
I haven't done an FTP in a good while but I put a load of rides into Golden Cheetah recently and it's giving me CP of 271w, FTP of 269. FWIW. I've averaged 267 for an hour on the turbo a few weeks ago whilst training for long climbs. I weigh 73kg so that's close on 3.7w/kg. Going by the figures on this thread I should be OK for racing but I did feck all training for race scenarios, just worked on sustaining threshold efforts for as long as possible to help me get up mountains.

Good race craft and racing experience will help an awful lot. While ftp is a great training tool it won't guarantee you results imo. It helps you get in shape for racing but there is many variables on race day that a high ftp/watts/kg won't prepare you for.

Bambaata · 03-10-2017 08:29PM

And if its any way to put more emphasis on race smarts - ive a decent FTP (was about 340/350 at 79kg this summer) but i get schooled by loads with much lower threshold as i really have very few race smarts! Riding with more seasoned guys in club league has helped somewhat as they give me some tips were i went wrong after the race but it really takes racing a lot to get smart, i havent done near enough each year to really learn. Hoping to correct that next year!

I havent kept a diary for a few years but hope to change that for next year as it helps to read through old reports on races etc to see what can be learned from each. Hoping that'll help my own race smarts development quicker than just rocking up and not actually analysing things afterwards.

This is a good time of year to look at what went well, what didnt and put a plan in place to hopefully improve those weaknesses - for me its peak power, race smarts and more racing for next year!

crazy_kenny · 03-10-2017 10:17PM

DKmac wrote: »

What are you doing in races? Where are you burning your matches? Where are you positioning yourself in the bunch?What type of races are you struggling in? FTP doesn't tell us if your sprint focused, able to sustain anaerobic efforts for long periods or are focused on grinding a big gear for long efforts.

At only 63kg I tend to stick to races with a few hills. For instance this year I did the Lacey cup, des Hanlon, dungarvan and visit nenagh classic early in the season. Each race has a couple of 10 minute hill efforts.

The first race the Lacey cup on the first climb I got dropped near the top despite averaging 248w (3.98w/kg) for 13.30 minutes. Des Hanlon and Dungarvan same story dropped on first climb, chased hard to get back on but nothing left towards finish.

My race positioning is poor. I get to the front but then seem to always end up at rear of bunch. I find it difficult to move up through the bunch again. Majority of times I wait for the split and make an effort to bridge gap.

sullzz · 03-10-2017 10:21PM

crazy_kenny wrote: »

At only 63kg I tend to stick to races with a few hills. For instance this year I did the Lacey cup, des Hanlon, dungarvan and visit nenagh classic early in the season. Each race has a couple of 10 minute hill efforts.

The first race the Lacey cup on the first climb I got dropped near the top despite averaging 248w (3.98w/kg) for 13.30 minutes. Des Hanlon and Dungarvan same story dropped on first climb, chased hard to get back on but nothing left towards finish.

My race positioning is poor. I get to the front but then seem to always end up at rear of bunch. I find it difficult to move up through the bunch again. Majority of times I wait for the split and make an effort to bridge gap.

So you've pinpointed your problem , youre burning all your matches trying to catch the group , you need to learn to keep position near the front by moving up through the group . Its not an easy thing to do but whats the alternative ?

dahat · 03-10-2017 10:32PM

crazy_kenny wrote: »

At only 63kg I tend to stick to races with a few hills. For instance this year I did the Lacey cup, des Hanlon, dungarvan and visit nenagh classic early in the season. Each race has a couple of 10 minute hill efforts.

The first race the Lacey cup on the first climb I got dropped near the top despite averaging 248w (3.98w/kg) for 13.30 minutes. Des Hanlon and Dungarvan same story dropped on first climb, chased hard to get back on but nothing left towards finish.

My race positioning is poor. I get to the front but then seem to always end up at rear of bunch. I find it difficult to move up through the bunch again. Majority of times I wait for the split and make an effort to bridge gap.

I had more success racing in top 15-20 from get go in any race this year, any race I sat back I got trapped in traffic.
Try racing a bit handier next year maybe if you can sustain the pace.

Also.in Dungarvan that first time up Colligan was hard, I may have been part of the driving somebit, I should have got pts that day but that's another story....

sullzz · 03-10-2017 10:35PM

dahat wrote: »

I had more success racing in top 15-20 from get go in any race this year, any race I sat back I got trapped in traffic.
Try racing a bit handier next year maybe if you can sustain the pace.

Id 2nd this , Dahat can keep a savage position in races and ive seen it pay off for him .

crazy_kenny · 03-10-2017 10:41PM

sullzz wrote: »

So you've pinpointed your problem , youre burning all your matches trying to catch the group , you need to learn to keep position near the front by moving up through the group . Its not an easy thing to do but whats the alternative ?

Increase my 10 minute power to stick with front of race on the climbs.

dahat · 03-10-2017 10:50PM

sullzz wrote: »

Id 2nd this , Dahat can keep a savage position in races and ive seen it pay off for him .

I'll never forget that day in Shannon and only hope I can repeat it next year somewhere.

sullzz · 03-10-2017 10:51PM

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Increase my 10 minute power to stick with front of race on the climbs.

By reading your previous posts you seem to have an adequate w/kg for A4 its more your race craft thats the issue, on the climbs just be at the front going into them to allow yourself to fall back as you begin to suffer but still be in the group as you crest .

dahat · 03-10-2017 10:51PM

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Increase my 10 minute power to stick with front of race on the climbs.

Stay handy from the offset without getting to the front is a decent tactic if you can hold the pace.

Miklos · 04-10-2017 10:39AM

I was racing throughout the season with an FTP of 307 and a w/kg of about 3.8, as far as I can tell that's a fairly good standard for A4. My best result was a 7th place in Moynalty but I had a good few top ten 10/20 finishes.

Looking back on the season I can see where I could have had better results by being a bit craftier, staying at the front of the bunch without putting my nose in the wind, it's very frustrating coming into the final 2/300 meters of a race and being outsprinted by a big unit who's been sitting in all day but I've learned my lesson now.

Gotta work on my sprinting!

Macy0161 · 04-10-2017 12:19PM

Just done a twenty minute trainerroad test. Nice improvement given I haven't been following a plan for a good few weeks, but fecked up my last test so was probably low.

Anyway my main question is I had the xert app going. Only 3 watts difference (app high). So going forward should I have the app going and adjust as I go, or just stick to the scheduled trainerroad tests?

Not that I'm looking to avoid the tests or anything... But in fairness you can have an off day on test day!

dahat · 04-10-2017 01:28PM

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just done a twenty minute trainerroad test. Nice improvement given I haven't been following a plan for a good few weeks, but fecked up my last test so was probably low.

Anyway my main question is I had the xert app going. Only 3 watts difference (app high). So going forward should I have the app going and adjust as I go, or just stick to the scheduled trainerroad tests?

Not that I'm looking to avoid the tests or anything... But in fairness you can have an off day on test day!

I also found the Xert app pretty accurate, gave me a reading of 352 following a 22 min effort with a likely accurate figure of 345 when I was fully race fit.
DC Rainmaker also remarked that it was pretty accurate with something as simple as a hard 2 min effort.

FTP and cycle racing.

Comments