Inability to learn our native language

JollyBustard · 03-10-2017 02:24PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

This line is almost inevitably trotted out.

Does this mean that countries like Cuba, Mexico, the States, Canada, etc etc don't have a 'soul' because the 1st languages are either extinct or spoken by a tiny minority?

I've highlighted the bit that's relevant in our case... Spoken by a tiny minority, but still alive. However, lose the language, and obviously it's not going to be a cataclysmic event, but it's still hard to conceive. Particularly in the case of Irish - it's among one of the oldest spoken languages in the world, fizzled out due to disinterest? Also, something something culture etc. ie - it's very much a part of the language-soul equation, which I believe Cuba and Mexico have plenty of? (Less so States and Canada, but I'm always for being proven wrong) Perhaps the phrase could do with a bit of finangling to fit culture in, but it still stands.

And apologies for trotting out what I'm sure is a cliché in these discussions, but I'm relatively new on boards, so... Oops, but don't particularly care?

Crea · 03-10-2017 02:36PM

It's taught badly from the get go. It should be spoken first, give the childen a ear for it- none of this spelling or workbook crap until 5th class. Teachers should speak irish to the kids most of the time at primary level. Irish stories should be read to and by the children.
The way it's taught now most kids hate Irish which is an awful shame

Chips Lovell · 03-10-2017 03:28PM

I don't think the teaching of Irish is the issue or, at least, the main issue. Learning and retaining a language is hard, particularly in an environment when it isn't spoken. You need strong motivation to do so and sentimental attachment will rarely provide that.

We're the same with European languages. Approximately 73 percent of Irish people speak no foreign languages. That's by far the highest in the EU. Why? English is widely spoken as a second language, meaning we've less need to learn another.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 03:34PM

With the range of referendums coming surely it is time to put this to the people.

I would imagine that as a default most would vote to keep it.

But surely it is time for a proper debate on whether the costs involved are worth. Whether the time spent on it is worth it. Whether is does identify us as a nation more than say the GAA, or Irish dancing, or U2 or whatever.

Either way it would open up the debate to actuals rather than anecdotal and deal with the issue.

whisky_galore · 03-10-2017 03:35PM

Crea wrote: »

It's taught badly from the get go.

There must have been hundreds upon thousands and indeed generations of incompetent Irish teachers if that were the case.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 03:39PM

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I don't think the teaching of Irish is the issue or, at least, the main issue. Learning and retaining a language is hard, particularly in an environment when it isn't spoken. You need strong motivation to do so and sentimental attachment will rarely provide that.

We're the same with European languages. Approximately 73 percent of Irish people speak no foreign languages. That's by far the highest in the EU. Why? English is widely spoken as a second language, meaning we've less need to learn another.

There was an interesting article recently (I think it was the Guardian but can't recall) in terms of language teaching in England.

The main point was the author was arguing that teaching of a foreign language was all wrong through schools as it normally was a few 40 minute classes a week over a few years. In most cases, it is well understood that the best way to learn a language is to immerse oneself in it.

So rather than the failing teaching methods, use the class time to learn about foreign cultures. The history of other countries, the music, dance etc. As children become interested in the country they will naturally want to know more and will want to learn the language.

whisky_galore · 03-10-2017 03:41PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Whether is does identify us as a nation more than say the GAA, or Irish dancing, or U2 or whatever.

Why aren't Gaelic games or traditional music or dancing required subjects? Are they not part and parcel of Irish culture?

These things seem to flourish compared to Irish without the need for making them obligatory.

BrianBoru00 · 03-10-2017 03:43PM

The reasons we 'can't speak' Irish is because we don't speak Irish.

If we had to speak it every day everyone would become quite competent within a couple of weeks.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 03:43PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

There must have been hundreds upon thousands and indeed generations of incompetent Irish teachers if that were the case.

They didn't say the teachers were incompetent, they said it was taught badly. That could be a problem with the curriculum rather than the teaching.

What is the overall aim of the curriculum? It is to develop the growth and use of the language or is it to follow a course which (at least when I was in school) seemed mirrored on the English course, ie learn poetry, serious novels etc?

I would seriously question if there has been any improvement in the overall use of Irish in the general populace despite years of trying and millions (billions?) being spent on it.

Surely at some point one need to at least accept that the current system is not working.

Crea · 03-10-2017 03:44PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

There must have been hundreds upon thousands and indeed generations of incompetent Irish teachers if that were the case.

Since the foundation of the state Irish has been taught badly. Teach it a a spoken language first - enough of learning verbs and spelling and ****e.

Triceratops Ballet · 03-10-2017 03:53PM

As many have said the education system is totally to blame here. There are so many people looking to be primary teachers who don't have a sufficient level of competency in the language at all. For primary teaching you only need a c3 or higher at LC to get into the course, I've seen plenty of threads on boards, and met plenty of people who desperately want to teach primary but are looking for a way round the Irish requirement, or who just swat up on a short course to get through the exam, how can they then put themselves in a position of giving students a solid foundation in the language, when they themselves don't have one.

If Irish is to continue being taught in the same manner as English then the teachers should have the same fluency requirement as English to teach it. Failing that, it should be re-taught from scratch at secondary level by people who have degrees in the language, with the assumption that kids learned nothing of it from their primary teachers!

realdanbreen · 03-10-2017 03:53PM

justshane wrote: »

Hi everyone so I recently traveled to Singapore. For anyone that's been they will know they're 3 races that make up the majority of Singaporeans. Chinese, Malays, and Indians. English is everyone's first language in Singapore but each race also learn there native language in the school system and everyone I encountered can speak both fluently.

My question is what are we doing so wrong in Ireland? How come the overwhelming majority of us can't hold a basic conversation in Irish? We spend the guts of 14 years learning it. My intial thoughts are it is just the method and process of the teaching but that's founded on nothing!

Curious on people's thoughts.

It's not just the Irish language that's the problem. Youngsters can give five or six years being 'taught' French German Spanish whatever and not be able to string 3 or 4 sentences together at the end of it. The problem is that no politician is prepared to take on the Department of education + the teacher unions on this.

the_syco · 03-10-2017 03:55PM

Wibbs wrote: »

There was a higher percentage of Irish speakers in 1917 than there is in 2017. This happened in the Irish civil service when the daily requirement for the language was dropped, within weeks the language was dropped in daily use. And these were people who could already speak it.

I'd say the administration helped kill off the Irish language as well, as the administration was all done in English, so if you wanted to pay fines, or get info, you needed an english speaker.

Shenshen wrote: »

So the real question is actually why people have no interest in speaking the language among themselves, with friends and family. If you want Irish to become a living language again, that's where you need to start your efforts. Not in school.

It's not useful, and most of us can only recite poems with it. Instead of trying to get current people to speak it, just get the new generation to speak it. But before you can teach it, first someone has to rejig how it's taught, as the current way is only fit to pass the JC and LC with, but nothing else.

tara73 wrote: »

adding to this the language is really, really difficult in itself to learn, it's the opposite of learning english or even french is like a walk in a park in comparison to irish. which is nobodys fault, it's just a point which adds to the fact so little people speak it fluently.

Actually, it's the fault of the people that demand we learn it. I'd say the only thing that changed in the last 50 years was that we can't be whipped any more.

=-=

I did French for three years. I have a better grasp of it than I do Irish.

ForestFire · 03-10-2017 04:00PM

Have not read the entire thread in detail, just posting my experience.

I was "taught" Irish through the normal school process, which I believe is deeply flawed for all the reasons others have said.

Our little one has gone to the Naíonra last year and again this year for her 2 year EEC preschool time.
She is also enrolled to go to the Gaelscoil next year for her primary education.

This I believe will ensure she learns the language the correct way that will also stay with her. It will also have the benefit of one subject for her leaving cert that will require much less work.

I do not see anything negative about doing primary education through Irish for kids (unless there is some strong belief from the parents for some reason?). There are at least 4 kids of African decent, 1 Korean and others from eastern European attending quite happily, that we know of.

There is an option to continue in Irish into secondary, but talking to the principle even in the time to sixth class they will be fluent in the language.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 04:05PM

I'm not against the learning of Irish in schools, although I am against how it is taught and how it is seen as a core subject and given elevated status. I have an issue that just because a child happens to be brought up in an Irish speaking household, and thus able to undertake learning and exams in Irish, that they should be given an advantage over equally intelligent and hardworking students who happen, through no fault of their own, to have no grounding in the subject and will likely never reach the required level to take exams in Irish.

That to me signals that even those that love the language, accept that without the stick the vast majority of people wouldn't bother with it.

So what we have currently is every child is forced to learn a language, that in many cases even their parents see no value in. But they are forced, under threat of having no future, to learn it. Is their any educational research to show the benefits of forcing people to learn? I would be amazed it if showed a greater result that getting people interested in a subject.

At best, you will get people that achieve the required in order to move on, but I would struggle to think that it is a way in which to build loyalty or love for a subject.

Going back to the core nature of it, is the only argument for it being core that without that requirement it would die out. What does that say about the language itself.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 04:09PM

ForestFire wrote: »

Have not read the entire thread in detail, just posting my experience.

I was "taught" Irish through the normal school process, which I believe is deeply flawed for all the reasons others have said.

Our little one has gone to the Naíonra last year and again this year for her 2 year EEC preschool time.
She is also enrolled to go to the Gaelscoil next year for her primary education.

This I believe will ensure she learns the language the correct way that will also stay with her. It will also have the benefit of one subject for her leaving cert that will require much less work.

I do not see anything negative about doing primary education through Irish for kids (unless there is some strong belief from the parents for some reason?). There are at least 4 kids of African decent, 1 Korean and others from eastern European attending quite happily, that we know of.

There is an option to continue in Irish into secondary, but talking to the principle even in the time to sixth class they will be fluent in the language.

The major problem with that is that no everyone has access to Naíonra or a gaelscoil. In our area, our child did a year in Naíonra, the gaelscoil places are limited and went to children who spoke Irish at home. I argued that that meant, at best, a stagnation or the language, as only those that knew it would be taught it.

I doubt anyone is arguing that Irish shouldn't be available to all and sundry if they wish, and certainly the government should be investing in it. But the current situation, as expressed by many already, clearly does not work and may actually be harming the language.

witchgirl26 · 03-10-2017 04:24PM

Haven't read every post in detail but here's my 2 cents. There's 2 reasons Irish isn't spoken well by the majority is down to:

1. The way it's taught. The course for Junior & Leaving Cert isn't necessarily inspiring to learn. And that's coming from someone who went to a Gaelscoil. I loved Irish but we finished the Leaving Cert course in mid-late 5th year and spent 6th year actually enjoying the language which gave me an appreciation for it.

2. Parents don't speak it to their children. We can't fully blame the education system here, parents have a roll too. I don't mean that they have to be fluent but as a young child I was always taught a few small words of Irish at home and encourage to intermingle them with English. Milk was regularly referred to as "Pass the bainne". It's not a massive thing but it normalises the use of it so you do use it every so often and that's how it can grow.

osarusan · 03-10-2017 04:29PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

As many have said the education system is totally to blame here.

I don't think that's true.

With a fantastic language education curriculum, we might have people leaving school with very good levels of Irish, but that doesn't mean they will be maintained after leaving school.

There are plenty of people who left school with high levels of French or German, but who gradually lost it through lack of use.

It needs to have a widespread use outside the education system.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 04:36PM

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Haven't read every post in detail but here's my 2 cents. There's 2 reasons Irish isn't spoken well by the majority is down to:

1. The way it's taught. The course for Junior & Leaving Cert isn't necessarily inspiring to learn. And that's coming from someone who went to a Gaelscoil. I loved Irish but we finished the Leaving Cert course in mid-late 5th year and spent 6th year actually enjoying the language which gave me an appreciation for it.

2. Parents don't speak it to their children. We can't fully blame the education system here, parents have a roll too. I don't mean that they have to be fluent but as a young child I was always taught a few small words of Irish at home and encourage to intermingle them with English. Milk was regularly referred to as "Pass the bainne". It's not a massive thing but it normalises the use of it so you do use it every so often and that's how it can grow.

But its the chicken and egg story. How do you expect parents to help the kids when they themselves either hate the memories of their own educational journey or simply see it as useless?

There are plenty (all) parents that give over huge amounts of time to GAA, Rugby, piano lessons, Irish dancing, ballet, swimming blah blah, so what is the reason they will do that but not, as your rightly suggest, encourage Irish?

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 04:41PM

osarusan wrote: »

I don't think that's true.

With a fantastic language education curriculum, we might have people leaving school with very good levels of Irish, but that doesn't mean they will be maintained after leaving school.

There are plenty of people who left school with high levels of French or German, but who gradually lost it through lack of use.

It needs to have a widespread use outside the education system.

So what do you blame it on?

In terms of German and French, you can rest assured that those that require it for work or living have continued it.

Widespread use? We have a dedicated radio channel, a dedicated TV channel, every official document is written in both English and Irish. You can be dealt with in Irish in all state bodies. Traffic signs. Europe spends millions translating all documents into Irish.

Irish is literally everywhere. This is the usual refrain from those decrying the lack of Irish in public. Resources etc. Millions is spent on it, countless hours are given over to broadcasting in it. We have parts of the country given special status that provides incentives for Irish only. Parts of Donegal etc are signposted in only Irish.

At what point do people start to question whether it is the language that is the problem, rather than everything else? And that is why I think a referendum is a good idea. It will fail, I have no doubt about that, as people will pull on the green jersey and proclaim that it is the essence of Irishness (even if they never speak it). But it will generate debate. Start a conversation about whether it is actually playing a positive role in the Ireland of today.

ForestFire · 03-10-2017 04:57PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

The major problem with that is that no everyone has access to Naíonra or a gaelscoil. In our area, our child did a year in Naíonra, the gaelscoil places are limited and went to children who spoke Irish at home. I argued that that meant, at best, a stagnation or the language, as only those that knew it would be taught it.

I doubt anyone is arguing that Irish shouldn't be available to all and sundry if they wish, and certainly the government should be investing in it. But the current situation, as expressed by many already, clearly does not work and may actually be harming the language.

Yes I agree, maybe we are lucky that we have these options available to us, but I believe this is the only way to teach the language, outside the Gaeltact areas.

Rolling this out to most/all primary education is going to take time, but the hope is that the pupils of today, will increase the number of Irish teachers in the future that will have the ability and passion to teach through Irish themselves to the next generation?

osarusan · 03-10-2017 05:07PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what do you blame it on?

What do I blame what on?

Yes, those that need French and German retain it - that's my point. There's a need there. And that need creates value and motivation.

Irish doesn't have that. And Irish isn't literally everywhere - it's on a TV channel few people watch, and radio stations few people listen to, and state and EU documents few people read. There is widespread access for those who want to access it...but few do. It isn't widespread use at all.

Look up any language revitalisation process, and it will say the same thing. You need the support of the adults. Develop it it a language of the community, spoken by adults, and that makes everything else so much easier.

In other successful revitalisation projects, like Hebrew, Catalan, Maori..there were links with identity and a place as a minority (perhaps an oppressed minority) within society which really helped with the people's motivation towards renewal of the language.

In Ireland, Irish speakers are not a minority group with a different identity in the same way that Maori or Catalans are...they are just Irish like everybody else. That is possibly part of the problem - it's not really tied to our identity in the way that other revitalised languages are, as we're not under the kind of pressure or threat that they often are.

And you said earlier that it's a chicken and egg situation regarding Irish-speaking adults, and I agree with that too. I have said many times that the language is on life support, and I think that's about as good as it's going to get. I don't ever foresee a widespread revitalisation of the language. There are simply not enough people who care enough to make it happen.

I will absolutely agree that there is a lot of money wasted on Irish, but unless we are simply going to let it die completely, maintaining it even at current levels is going to cost money.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 05:10PM

ForestFire wrote: »

Yes I agree, maybe we are lucky that we have these options available to us, but I believe this is the only way to teach the language, outside the Gaeltact areas.

Rolling this out to most/all primary education is going to take time, but the hope is that the pupils of today, will increase the number of Irish teachers in the future that will have the ability and passion to teach through Irish themselves to the next generation?

Herein lies the problem. I agree that it will take time, but while we take that time children within the education sector continue to be badly serviced. Hope seems to be the overriding principal within the plan for Irish. If we just hope hard enough then Irish will flourish, despite the last 70/80 years of evidence to the contrary.

After 80 years of direct investment why do we not have sufficient teaching standards? Why would we expect this generation to buck a trend that has been ongoing for the last few generations? What is different now?

And in the meantime, whilst we await the grand awaking, pupils up and down the country and forced to sit through nearly 5 hours a week, for every week of every year of their education, of Irish class to end up not far from whence they started and based on most reports, with a negative attitude to the language.

Whilst at the same time we face an obesity epidemic through lack of PE, kids don't do well enough in maths, science struggles to increase in take up. Very few schools offer coding as a subject. Home economics (budgeting, civic studies etc). There is a finite time to teach children and currently we are using up a large portion of it and something that achieves very little.

Larbre34 · 03-10-2017 05:10PM

The education system is not to blame for the poor levels of spoken Irish among our population. The Catch 22 of teaching someone Irish only for them rarely, if ever, to have reason speak it routinely, is the sole reason it does not catch on in the populous like 2nd and even 3rd Languages in other EU Countries.

Irish was decimated during the years of British occupation. The elimination of native language did not occur in other European empires and occupations. Those same European nations lived proximate to other ethnicities in a way that did not occur in Ireland. For that reason, they picked up the neighbouring language in a practical way, i.e. for trading, negotiating, socialising, while still maintaining their own. Subsequently, levels of English improved on the continent through entertainment, wartime co-operation and the common language of business.

My wife was taught at Primary level through Irish. By the time she reached Leaving Cert after doing Secondary through English, her Irish proficiency was gone. I too used to have a good level of Irish and worked summers in Gaeltacht colleges as a leader / monitor, but again I'd be embarrassed enough to return to Connemara and use it now, purely because I am so rusty.

I love Irish, but my belief is it should be dropped as a core subject, in favour of continental languages with business and social importance, while Irish should become extra-curricular with the emphasis on social usage, historical context and a fun aspect to learning. In my opinion, its the only way 'grá na teanga' might be improved

Leroy42 · 03-10-2017 05:27PM

osarusan wrote: »

What do I blame what on?

You argued that it wasn't the education system to blame. Since this is the way in which Irish has tried to be increased through direct education to children, I fail to see how you can blame anything else. By any metric, the education system has failed in the aim to increase Irish usage in the populace.

osarusan wrote: »

Yes, those that need French and German retain it - that's my point. There's a need there. And that need creates value and motivation.

Irish doesn't have that. And Irish isn't literally everywhere - it's on a TV channel few people watch, and radio stations few people listen to, and state and EU documents few people read. There is widespread access for those who want to access it...but few do. It isn't widespread use at all.

For those that want it it is widespread. The fact that the vast majority don't watch/listen/read is therefore not because of the lack of availability, it is a choice. Look at the speeches after the AI finals. Bit of Irish by the GAA president, and I reckon 90% of the people aren't even listening. Same for the winning captain. I hear and see Irish everyday. I, like all others, can access it very easily if I wish.

osarusan wrote: »

Look up any language revitalisation process, and it will say the same thing. You need the support of the adults. Develop it it a language of the community, spoken by adults, and that makes everything else so much easier.

In other successful revitalisation projects, like Hebrew, Catalan, Maori..there were links with identity and a place as a minority (perhaps an oppressed minority) within society which really helped with the people's motivation towards renewal of the language.

In Ireland, Irish speakers are not a minority group with a different identity in the same way that Maori or Catalans are...they are just Irish like everybody else. That is possibly part of the problem - it's not really tied to our identity in the way that other revitalised languages are, as we're not under the kind of pressure or threat that they often are.

Agreed. IMO, many Irish people simply do not see the Irish language as an integral part of being Irish. Its nice to have, a cupla focal on a foreign trip, but not worth the time or hassle. You would have to question just how integral it really is.

osarusan wrote: »

And you said earlier that it's a chicken and egg situation regarding Irish-speaking adults, and I agree with that too. I have said many times that the language is on life support, and I think that's about as good as it's going to get. I don't ever foresee a widespread revitalisation of the language. There are simply not enough people who care enough to make it happen.

I will absolutely agree that there is a lot of money wasted on Irish, but unless we are simply going to let it die completely, maintaining it even at current levels is going to cost money.

But we don't treat the arts in the same way, or Irish dancing or GAA. For many, they would see them as more integral and in many ways actually offer a better gateway into reviving the language. I am not for a second saying that we stop spending money on the promotion of Irish, I would even go as far as saying that we simply re-divert the current spend on education onto a different area to try to gain acceptance.

The last 80 years+ shows that it is not working. But it seems we are too scared to try something else lest the language suffers. Well guess what, the language is suffering, has been for years, and will continue to suffer unless we accept that things are not working and actually look for an alternative.

If it didn't work on the generation before, why would it work now if nothing changes?

ForestFire · 03-10-2017 05:30PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

After 80 years of direct investment why do we not have sufficient teaching standards? Why would we expect this generation to buck a trend that has been ongoing for the last few generations? What is different now?

Unfortunately 80 years of bad education I would say (Irish), but both by Nephew and Niece are now going to a Gaelscoil, where none existed when I was young.

The local Gaelscoil, were I now live, would also not have been around when I was young.

I am not sure of the increase in Gaelscoils around the country, but found this article interesting for a few reasons:-

1) The increase is clearly there and needs to be expedited
2)The absolute sock the "accusation of elitism" about young kids learning Irish (I guess this is what your up against and the resistance??)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-rise-of-the-gaelscoil-is-this-the-new-playground-of-the-elite-1.1202171

As I said our local school there are children from all walks of life and possible all continents, so not sure where the elitism comer from??

Some additional Stats:-

http://www.comhairle.org/PDFs/statistics_E.pdf

The goal should be investment in primary gaelscoils for teaching our children the language naturally, How this is achieved I do not know and maybe that does just leave us with hope:(

osarusan · 03-10-2017 05:45PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

You argued that it wasn't the education system to blame.

I didn't.

I disagreed that it was 'totally' to blame.

Maybe your definition of 'education system' is more broad than mine, but I don't think you can hold the education system responsible for a failure to produce fluent Irish speakers any more than you can hold it responsible for a failure to produce fluent French or Germean speakers (who have studied it in school). School learning is just one part of language learning, but the other parts are lacking when it comes to Irish.

For those that want it it is widespread. The fact that the vast majority don't watch/listen/read is therefore not because of the lack of availability, it is a choice.

Yes, for those that want it availability is widespread, but as I said, so few people want it or choose to access it that it isn't widespread use.

I am not for a second saying that we stop spending money on the promotion of Irish, I would even go as far as saying that we simply re-divert the current spend on education onto a different area to try to gain acceptance.

The last 80 years+ shows that it is not working. But it seems we are too scared to try something else lest the language suffers. Well guess what, the language is suffering, has been for years, and will continue to suffer unless we accept that things are not working and actually look for an alternative.

I disagree - certainly some daft stuff like funding for translating of EU documents can be diverted. But I don't think that funds for education should be diverted (unless it is within education). I don't see any logic to taking Irish out of schools, reducing time spent on it, or making it optional at primary level, as part of a process of language revitalisation.

In my eyes, the problem is no so much the education system as the lack of value placed on the language by the rest of society.

nozzferrahhtoo · 04-10-2017 08:29AM

justshane wrote: »

My question is what are we doing so wrong in Ireland? How come the overwhelming majority of us can't hold a basic conversation in Irish? We spend the guts of 14 years learning it. My intial thoughts are it is just the method and process of the teaching but that's founded on nothing!

Curious on people's thoughts.

Well the first question as a complete lay person to this topic for me would be whether we DO in fact have the problem you specifically describe. In that.... I have yet to meet many people who can hold a basic conversation in French or German either. Are there statistics on this as to our nations capability with second languages in GENERAL that show that perhaps Irish is specifically a problem?

Otherwise perhaps you are framing the question wrong. Perhaps it is not an inability to learn our native language so much as a failing in how we learn a second language in general.

For example here in Germany where I now live the majority of people I meet have a very strong and workable standard of English. When talking to them I found out they learned English THROUGH English. Not a word of their native language German is used in the English Classroom from the moment the teacher first walks into the first class and points at themselves saying "My Name is Mr. Schmidt".

Whereas my memory of learning Irish and German and French and even Latin in school........ or more specifically failing to learn them much at all........ was that we learned them all through English.

So is it an inability to learn our native language or an inability to learn a second language at all?

And is it an "inability" at all on behalf of the learner, or are they actually well capable of it but we in fact have a faulty teaching methodology?

As I said I am a complete lay man to language and to the education of it, but there are questions I would certainly ask before asking the one as you have framed it here essentially placing the "blame" for the failing at the feet of the people who can not speak it.

Wibbs · 04-10-2017 09:43AM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Irish was decimated during the years of British occupation. The elimination of native language did not occur in other European empires and occupations.

Eh... yes it did and repeatedly. What happened to the many native languages that had flourished in areas of Europe before the Roman Empire rolled in? What happened to Pictish in Scotland after Irish missionaries and traders rolled in? They all went extinct. Hell Irish itself replaced the original language(s) of Ireland on the back of the Celtic influence/invasion. It happened and continues to happen all the time. It's pretty much how languages go extinct.

Again we're seeing blame/reasons being viewed through the simplistic prism of "T'was the Brits".

justshane · 04-10-2017 09:52AM

Del2005 wrote: »

The English might have tried to wipe it out but our education system killed it. How they have "thought" Irish since the foundation of the State has led to a nation that can't speak its own language after 12 years of school. Whereas in nearly every other country the children are talking multiple languages, which usually aren't native.

Very valid point.

Inability to learn our native language

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