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Irish Border and Brexit

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Comments

  • #872
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    knipex wrote: »
    I am not talking about Northern Ireland.

    I am talking about the republic of Ireland.

    Does it value its nationhood, its reputation and its trade enough to enforce and protect its borders.

    The question is that simple..

    Many posters are suggesting that we just ignore our borders, they aren't worth protecting and let what ever when ever pass over.

    Not all borders follow natural features. hell even the Hong Kong China border has about 30 miles where it essentially is a lien in the middle of a field.

    Belgium France, Hell Virtually the entire Belgian border with France, The Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg.. Luxumburgs border with everyone.

    Swiss \ Austria, Italy \ Slovenia.

    Every nation on earth protects its borders but for some Reason Ireland is a special case (Again) and cannot do so..

    Every nation on earth protects its borders? Why do you think most countries in Europe are in Schengen? (In case you don't know, the reason is that its costly and pointless in some cases to even try).

    A 2 metre high wire border between NI & Ireland would be a waste of time and money. It was the Irish Revenue Commissioners who came up with the half a billion figure to put in customs controls between NI & ROI. Its a Berlin wall that would be needed to protect the ROI's trade and economy.


  • #873
    breatheme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 384 ✭✭breatheme


    I guess you could say "every nation on Earth and the Schengen area", and his point still remains.


  • #874
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    demfad wrote: »
    • The UK has chosen to move outside the EU external frontier
    • The single market is a defensive system which must be protected.
    • The UK has said it doesn't want a hard border which means the UK must request the EU not to police its border.
    • UK must devise a model for NI governance that allows the EU to refrain from policing its border.
    • If UK chooses to diverge from existing regulatory regime and allow imports at differing standards then EU border is compromised.
    • EU cannot make exceptions to its third country controls - they are uniform throughout, so it must police the border.
    • So if the border is to stay unpoliced UK need to agree to match regulatory regimes
    • UK must spell out how their outer controls and trade deals do not threaten EUs.
    • EU cannot be expected to re-engineer its third country controls for the sole benefit of UK or turn a blind eye to UK divergence.

    The EU is actually limited in the models it can offer the UK in terms of a long term arrangement: Swiss, Norway, Turkey, Canada.

    Lets look at some local Stats:
    • 5,000+ NI businesses exported to Ireland (150% more than exported to GB). 51% of these businesses have fewer than 9 employees.
    • In terms of value - 80% of sales from NI to Ireland from businesses with fewer than 250 employees.
    • 177k HGVs and 208k light vans cross the border every month
    • NI agri-food % sales to Ireland - 42% dairy processing, 37% sheep processing - 42% of NI’s sheep/lambs processed in Ireland
    • 110m person border crossings each year - 15 main crossing points responsible for 43m recorded road vehicle crossings
    • 2011 Census - 14,800 people commute for work/study. 2017 study - 270 Ireland pupils at NI secondary schools - 100 at primary school
    • 47% of cars in border shopping areas Ireland registered - Ireland households responsible for c.1.6% of GVA for retail sector of NI

    There is an awful lot riding on this 'seamless border'.
    If UK crashes out the disruption to our economy and NIs will be massive.
    ROI should start building infrastructure for hard border NOW to allow for some trade at least.

    Where did you get those stats? No link provided, so how do we know they are reliable.


  • #875
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,273 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    breatheme wrote: »
    I guess you could say "every nation on Earth and the Schengen area", and his point still remains.
    Well, it doesn't really, in his earlier post claiming that nations must police their borders he offered a number of examples of nations that don't police their borders at all. Clearly, border control is not a central characteristic of True Nationhood.

    If the UK does crash out, we'll have no choice but to police the border. This will be bad for us, but the alternative of not policing it will be worse. In the circumstances, you can't expect us to do this with a particularly good grace. The UK is shooting itself in the foot and we're the collateral damage.

    And it's self-interest, not High Principle, that will lead us to police the border. And we'll only police it in ways that, and to the extent that, serve our self-interest. Which means no border fence or anything like it, and a realistic acceptance that the social and geographical nature of the Irish border means that it's always going to be fairly porous. Border security (on the Irish side) will be focussed on the interdiction of contraband goods, and on the collection of revenue. There will be no attempt to control the movement of people.


  • #876
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Border security (on the Irish side) will be focussed on the interdiction of contraband goods, and on the collection of revenue.  There will be no attempt to control the movement of people.
    It will be focused on the application of the terms of the EU's trade agreement with the UK.


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  • #877
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,273 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    First Up wrote: »
    It will be focused on the application of the terms of the EU's trade agreement with the UK.
    In the crash-out situation that murphaph suggests, there will be no trade agreement with the UK. AT any rate, not initially.

    But this may be a distinction without a difference. Whether the UK is trading into the EU under a trade agreement, or on default WTO terms, policiing of the Irish border will mainly be focussed on collecting the customs duties and other taxes due on imports from the UK, and on the interdiction of goods whose importation into the EU is prohibited.


  • #878
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    First Up wrote: »
    It will be focused on the application of the terms of the EU's trade agreement with the UK.

    You mean the UK's trade agreement with the EU.

    In this I think you are likely to be engaging in wishful thinking. As matters stand, the UK has a Brexit deadline of March 2019. They are also now talking about an implementation period of 2 years. And they are also saying they want trade arrangements that are bespoke. Despite saying that they want to reduce red tape, they have also asked the EU to accept a promise that the UK will be regulatorily equivalent to the UK while also making clear that they do not want to provide a viable method fof the EU of really enforcing that. As the Home Office goes unpunished by the British courts for contempt, and the UK is already in trouble as an EU member with a 2 billion euro fine regarding customs transgressions, I cannot see a bespoke deal coming quickly. CETA took years to negotiate in good faith with competent negotiators on both sides.

    So unless the UK agrees to ECJ oversight and SM membership I have some doubts that there will be enduring trade arrangements in place in 4 years.


  • #879
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    So do I, but the role of the border on the Irish side will be to enforce whatever terms apply to UK-EU trade after Brexit.


  • #880
    knipex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭knipex


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Well, it doesn't really, in his earlier post claiming that nations must police their borders he offered a number of examples of nations that don't police their borders at all.

    Way to be selective and misappropriate comments.

    You claimed that all borders followed rivers or coasts or natural features that acted as border barriers.

    I listed a number of countries where that isn't the case..

    I also said that any country that valued its independence an trade had to police its border.. (which you now appear to agree with all be it in some selective policing method that you haven't clarified)


  • #881
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,273 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    knipex wrote: »
    Way to be selective and misappropriate comments.

    You claimed that all borders followed rivers or coasts or natural features that acted as border barriers.
    Not me, knipex.
    knipex wrote: »
    I also said that any country that valued its independence an trade had to police its border.. (which you now appear to agree with all be it in some selective policing method that you haven't clarified)
    What you actually said, and what I was responding to, was . . .
    knipex wrote: »
    I am not talking about Northern Ireland.

    I am talking about the republic of Ireland.

    Does it value its nationhood, its reputation and its trade enough to enforce and protect its borders.

    The question is that simple..
    In the Irish context, the border is problematic as far as nationhood and reputation are concerned, and I thought it was worth pointing that out. As far as trade is concerned, the border will have to be policed if the foot-shooting of the UK makes that necessary, but (a) this is most unfortunate from every point of view, and (b) that kind of policing certainly doesn't involve the kind of border fence that View was advocating.


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  • #882
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    @blanch152, Where did you get the suggestion that these stats may not be reliable?
    No link provided so how do we know you have any good grounds to question demfad ?


  • #883
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,730 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    @blanch152, Where did you get the suggestion that these stats may not be reliable?
    No link provided so how do we know you have any good grounds to question demfad ?

    They are quoted from the UK position paper are they not?


  • #884
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    They are quoted from the UK position paper are they not?


    Are they? And does that mean they are reliable? I seem to recall the British Statistics Office and other bodies questioning their own Government's use of statistics.

    Statistics in a position paper are usually selected (and I use that word carefully) to bolster a particular argument, not as a clarification of facts. Until I see something a little more rigourous than an unattributed quotation, I will feel free to ignore.


  • #885
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,730 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Are they? And does that mean they are reliable? I seem to recall the British Statistics Office and other bodies questioning their own Government's use of statistics.

    Statistics in a position paper are usually selected (and I use that word carefully) to bolster a particular argument, not as a clarification of facts. Until I see something a little more rigourous than an unattributed quotation, I will feel free to ignore.

    Ok.
    That is where they came from. Repudiate them with alternate facts.


  • #886
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    knipex wrote: »

    Not all borders follow natural features. hell even the Hong Kong China border has about 30 miles where it essentially is a lien in the middle of a field.

    So? It was an artificial border.
    Belgium France, Hell Virtually the entire Belgian border with France, The Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg.. Luxumburgs border with everyone.


    Swiss \ Austria, Italy \ Slovenia.

    Have you ever heard of the Ardenne Mountains between Belgium and Luxembourg/Germany/French border?
    The Ardennes (/ɑːrˈdɛn/; French: L'Ardenne; Dutch: Ardennen; Walloon: L'dene; Luxembourgish: Ardennen; also known as Ardennes Forest) is a region of extensive forests, rough terrain, rolling hills and ridges formed by the geological features of the Ardennes mountain range and the Moselle and Meuse River basins. Geologically, the range is a western extension of the Eifel and both were raised during the Givetian age[1] of the Devonian (387.7 to 382.7 million years ago) as were several other named ranges of the same greater range.


    Primarily in Belgium and Luxembourg, but stretching into Germany and France (lending its name to the Ardennes department and the former Champagne-Ardenne region), and geologically into the Eifel—the eastern extension of the Ardennes Forest into Bitburg-Prüm, Germany, most of the Ardennes proper consists of southeastern Wallonia, the southern and more rural part of the Kingdom of Belgium (away from the coastal plain but encompassing over half of the kingdom's total area). The eastern part of the Ardennes forms the northernmost third of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, also called "Oesling" (Luxembourgish: slek), and on the southeast the Eifel region continues into Rhineland-Palatinate (German state).

    Have a look at this map - it will give you an idea of the borders of Europe.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@49.6404569,5.7662251,716721m/data=!3m1!1e3?dcr=0

    Between Slovenia & Czech Republic, if its not mountain, river or lake its dense forestry for example.


  • #887
    breatheme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 384 ✭✭breatheme


    What about Portugal and Spain?


  • #888
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    breatheme wrote: »
    What about Portugal and Spain?
    The Portugal–Spain border is 1,214 km (754 miles) long and considered the longest uninterrupted border within the European Union. The border is not defined for 18 km (11 miles) between the Caia river and Ribeira de Cuncos, because of the disputed status of Olivenza, which has been disputed between the two countries for two hundred years.

    Rio Touroes establishes the natural border between Spain and Portugal from its mouth on the river Águeda near the town of La Bouza to an intermediate point between the Portuguese town of Sao Pedro de Rio Seco and La Alameda de Gard

    Interesting that the only disputed part of the boundary doesn't have a natural feature to define it.


  • #889
    breatheme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 384 ✭✭breatheme


    That river that you mentioned crosses the border into Portugal, and it originates in Castilla y León, so it's only a small part of the border. I did find that the river Águeda is one of the natural borders between Portugal and Spain, but it runs for 176 km, so what about the other 1038 km? That is only is only a small part of the border. And the disputed part of the boundary is ONE town. A small town at that. What about the border between Galicia and Portugal? Extremadura and Portugal? Andalucia and Portugal?
    EDIT: here's a link so you can see how small that town (the disputed one) is: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Olivença_location.PNG


  • #890
    knipex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭knipex


    jm08 wrote: »
    So? It was an artificial border.



    Have you ever heard of the Ardenne Mountains between Belgium and Luxembourg/Germany/French border?



    Have a look at this map - it will give you an idea of the borders of Europe.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@49.6404569,5.7662251,716721m/data=!3m1!1e3?dcr=0

    Between Slovenia & Czech Republic, if its not mountain, river or lake its dense forestry for example.

    Man you have hold of a bone..

    I saw 2 bushes and a tree between Donegal and Derry.

    A Forest or a lake will stop movement.

    Its far easier patrol open fields than forestry..


  • #891
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    breatheme wrote: »
    That river that you mentioned crosses the border into Portugal, and it originates in Castilla y Leso it's only a small part of the border. I did find that the river Águeda is one of the natural borders between Portugal and Spain, but it runs for 176 km, so what about the other 1038 km? That is only is only a small part of the border. And the disputed part of the boundary is ONE town. A small town at that. What about the border between Galicia and Portugal? Extremadura and Portugal? Andalucia and Portugal?
    EDIT: here's a link so you can see how small that town (the disputed one) is: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Oliven%C3%A7a_location.PNG

    The Deuro, the Tagus, and the Guadiana all follow the border at some point. From looking at the map, I can see 8 roads crossing the border between Spain & Portugal.

    A river and mountains/national park between Galicia & Portugal. One road crosses the border at Tui, and another at Chaves.


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  • #892
    ancapailldorcha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,646 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Back on topic please.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #893
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-border-guy-verhofstadt-single-market-customs-union-european-parliament-a7972596.html

    European Parliament to vote on the customs to be in the Irish sea.

    Always the likely option, but I am surprised they are bringing it into the open at this stage....given the trouble it risks causing May from the DUP.
    Unless....
    1) while the DUP will huff and puff and march in outrage - the gamble is that they will run with it, knowing that it is indeed in their best interest
    or
    2) that it will topple the govt and provoke another election. But Brussels having had enough of the Tory party, feeling Labour may actually be the more reasonable representative and that true negotiation, rather than a sham one while the Tories play out their internal civil war, may be then possible.


  • #894
    pinksoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,737 ✭✭✭pinksoir


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-border-guy-verhofstadt-single-market-customs-union-european-parliament-a7972596.html

    European Parliament to vote on the customs to be in the Irish sea.

    Always the likely option, but I am surprised they are bringing it into the open at this stage....given the trouble it risks causing May from the DUP.
    Unless....
    1) while the DUP will huff and puff and march in outrage - the gamble is that they will run with it, knowing that it is indeed in their best interest
    or
    2) that it will topple the govt and provoke another election. But Brussels having had enough of the Tory party, feeling Labour may actually be the more reasonable representative and that true negotiation, rather than a sham one while the Tories play out their internal civil war, may be then possible.

    Seems like the right and democratic thing to do would be to put it to the vote for the people of NI.


  • #895
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    pinksoir wrote: »
    Seems like the right and democratic thing to do would be to put it to the vote for the people of NI.

    Well, we have seen where democracy has brought the UK so far on this topic - hardly the way to go at all. The UK govt will just have to pull the trigger on this one if it the only way forward for Brexit, and view it as a price that had to be paid. Sorry NI, etc - but you are just collatoral damage in this whole Brexit fiasco.
    Giving decisions to the people would be just likely to compound the problem.


    (By the way, can anyone think of a democracy making a decision as bad as Brexit since the Nazis won a majority in the '32 election ? Is the Brexit decision, now second place to that tragic 'let the people chose' election.)


  • #896
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    1) while the DUP will huff and puff and march in outrage - the gamble is that they will run with it, knowing that it is indeed in their best interest.

    I'm very confident they will refuse to support anything that bursts their fantasy-bubble that the north is an integral part of the UK. Ian Paisley Jnr was recently talking about how 'we' gave Ireland funds via the EU - completely oblivious to the fact that the north has been underwritten by England and the EU for decades. The 'we' IPJnr thinks he is part of is not the 'we' the English are.

    The utter delusions of Unionist politicians and UKIP types is not so much a political position as a quasi-religious dogma that places the Greatness of Britain, above all other states, at its centre.

    Jeffrey Donaldson threatening that Boeing should 'wind its neck in' exemplifies the above.


  • #897
    pinksoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,737 ✭✭✭pinksoir


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Well, we have seen where democracy has brought the UK so far on this topic - hardly the way to go at all. The UK govt will just have to pull the trigger on this one if it the only way forward for Brexit, and view it as a price that had to be paid. Sorry NI, etc - but you are just collatoral damage in this whole Brexit fiasco.
    Giving decisions to the people would be just likely to compound the problem.

    I don't know. NI voted to stay in the EU/single market. I could imagine unionists being pragmatic enough to go with remaining in the SM/customs union if it were put to a vote.

    The issue with the UK is that it's got devolved powers, each of the regions having unique interests. As it is, it's very much a case of the United Kingdom of England and the Other Guys. It doesn't seem right that London should decide what happens to NI people in NI when they have no skin in the game.

    That's an issue with national democracies in general, of course. And it is a criticism that could be equally levelled at the EU. However, the regions in the EU (the countries) have a right to veto any decisions and this is not based on percentage of overall population of the Union. This was not the case in the Brexit vote. If the UK (English) government were committed to democracy and devolution they might have considered only allowing Brexit go forward if all regions were in agreement. Allowing regions to vote on decisions such as the NI border might go some way to addressing this.


  • #898
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    To be fair, London voted in favour of Remain too.

    It is evident that Cameron, Gove and Johnson never expected Brexit to win. Cameron fell on his sword. Johnson wants to be PM. The interests of the UK really never were central to this; otherwise the referendum would have been better run with clearer dependent legislation clear beforehand.


  • #899
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Calina wrote: »
    To be fair, London voted in favour of Remain too.

    It is evident that Cameron, Gove and Johnson never expected Brexit to win. Cameron fell on his sword. Johnson wants to be PM. The interests of the UK really never were central to this; otherwise the referendum would have been better run with clearer dependent legislation clear beforehand.

    You really have a point there. I don´t know whether you´ve ever read anything of the information pamphlets the Remain Camp has distributed (they are still on their Website) in which all the pros of remain and the cons of Brexit were as clear listed and explained. So, the facts were all there and accessible to everyone interested in reading them. Going out from the lack of interest many people in the UK apparently have shown on these fact sheets, I would dare say that the same people might have had no much interest in reading any proposals for legislation either. Such clearance in legistlation proposals must have had sections regarding the Irish border as well.

    My point is that the whole campaign as we have seen was lead massively on emotions stirred up by the right-wing and tabloid press in the UK. I see that as an incitment procedure which was going on for years before the BrexitRef even took place and this was intensified even more in the up run to the Ref. That´s the sad thing that people got that blinded by this stirring up of emotions which I say was inciting them by massive anti-EU propaganda which led them to ignore the facts and follow the lies of the usual Brexiteers like Farage, Johnson et al. The Brexit propagandists and their supportive media knew that perfectly well and took advantage of it to finally succeed. But to their disappointment, the Brexit negotiations are going not the way as they expected and are apparently stagnating because after four negotiation rounds with the EU, nothing has been achieved. One can anticipate that this will continue the way it went up to day and it will lead to a hard Brexit whatever Mrs May and her members of cabinet will try to make the public believe.

    Now the EU is about to discuss their way of reformation after this long speech the French President Macron has given at the Sorbonne University and I have no idea yet how his proposals might effect the Brexit negotiations on their way to completion in March 2019. Maybe some idea might emerge from this discussions among the EU leaders how to solve and settle the Irish border question. It might be possible that the UK ends up left behind because of their incapability to get anything settled in this negotiations. Maybe Mrs May and her cabinet are doing this on purpose and leave the border problem to the Republic of Ireland to solve, in a way that they think that after the UK has exited the EU, it is on the Irish State to secure the border to NI as part of the UK as a remaining EU member state and as such, it would fall on the Republic of Ireland to do the job to secure the "outer border of the EU", just like other EU member states have to do.


  • #900
    kingchess
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    Mrs May should be very happy as now the EU are finally being "creative" and coming up with new ideas,The DUP,on the other hand.....


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  • #901
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Well, we have seen where democracy has brought the UK so far on this topic - hardly the way to go at all. The UK govt will just have to pull the trigger on this one if it the only way forward for Brexit, and view it as a price that had to be paid. Sorry NI, etc - but you are just collatoral damage in this whole Brexit fiasco.
    Giving decisions to the people would be just likely to compound the problem.

    That would be a breach of the GFA which gives the right of self-determination to the people of Northern Ireland. If the people of Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the UK and not join the customs union, meaning a hard border, then they should be given the opportunity to vote on that choice. Or do you only believe in democracy when it gives you the answer you want to hear?

    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

    (By the way, can anyone think of a democracy making a decision as bad as Brexit since the Nazis won a majority in the '32 election ? Is the Brexit decision, now second place to that tragic 'let the people chose' election.)


    Except that didn't happen.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_July_1932


    "They saw great gains by the Nazi Party, which for the first time became the largest party in parliament but without winning a majority."


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