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People with disabilities & 250,000 carers in Ireland.

2

Comments

  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Who is doing the discriminating?

    The State, private sector businesses, people, communities - take your pick.


  • #33
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,700 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    The State, private sector businesses, people, communities - take your pick.

    So the state is actively trying to discriminate against the child referenced in the OP? The "government" is sitting in a room somewhere dreaming up ways to stop that child getting the same services that everybody else gets? The community is helping every other child except that one?

    Of course not. I'm not going to repeat the same simple point over and over but it is a very simple point. There is a big difference between A) actively discriminating against somebody and B) actively helping somebody to overcome challenges. What that child needs more of is B, what you people are talking about is A, and in doing so aren't helping the child at all.


  • #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    So the state is actively trying to discriminate against the child referenced in the OP? The "government" is sitting in a room somewhere dreaming up ways to stop that child getting the same services that everybody else gets? The community is helping every other child except that one?

    Of course not. I'm not going to repeat the same simple point over and over but it is a very simple point. There is a big difference between A) actively discriminating against somebody and B) actively helping somebody to overcome challenges. What that child needs more of is B, what you people are talking about is A, and in doing so aren't helping the child at all.

    Why did you feel the need to add the new word of 'actively' there?

    Just to be clear, the Government is failing to provide children with disabilities with the same educational opportunities as other children. The Government has failed to provide people with disabilities with the same access to transport to other people - if you had to give 24 hours advance notice of every DART or coach trip, how would you feel?

    Communities have failed to give people with disabilities the same opportunities for community participation by objecting to students with disabilities in classrooms and by objecting to housing for people with disabilities.

    Private sector providers are failing to provide equal access to simple services like bars and restaurants by failing to provide level access at doors, failing to provide menus readable to people with sight loss, failing to provide a bathroom that can be used, failing to train staff to know that the person who sounds like a drunk may actually have just have a speech impairment.

    Would you like me to continue?


  • #35
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Does it mean it's ok as long as the government aren't sitting at their desks rubbing their hands together with malicious glee, saying ''how can we discriminate against disabled people today?'' Their choices and wilful negligence amount to discrimination, it doesn't matter that there probably isn't any actual malice or conscious prejudice behind it.

    I have seen some things written by Tom Clonan about these problems. If I remember correctly a big issue for him is the govt. pushing people toward care in the community when often it's care in a residential home with more supervision that they need. Can only assume it's a cost cutting thing. He was on about a campaign for equality for disabled people but I never heard anymore about it.


  • #36
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    One of the issues is the government and HSE are very quick to label someone as having a Disability Vs someone been Actually physical Disabilities.
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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  • #37
    boardsuser1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    Trying to secure DCA and in turn carer's for my daughter is a mission i am currently on, i expect to be made jump through hoops though.


  • #38
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Stop trying to make it personal. I'm stating a fact, and the cost implications of such. The OP pointed out Ireland hasn't signed up the the convention, I pointed out another area where Ireland is different to most other countries.

    And what's that got to do with the needs of the child in the OP's post.


  • #39
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Who is doing the discriminating?

    Have a read of the op again.


  • #40
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    As many as required.



    If it came to my child's welfare I'd have zero problem with this. I know of no teachers (and I know my fair share) that would have any problems with this.



    Seriously, is there any initiative at all expected?

    You still don't get it. The books aren't the only issue... it's everything else that goes with it. The books were ONE example.
    It's also not a case of improvising. That's great that you would spend a few days in a photocopying shop for your kid and borrowing all the books off other students, but really there is no need.
    The funds are there.
    Access to them us the difficulty.

    If you heard aboutbsomeone in a wheelchair struggling to get up a step and they complained about acces would you think "Seriously, is there any initiative at all expected?". But 8f it was your kid you'd go and build a step into and within every building right?


  • #41
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    And what's that got to do with the needs of the child in the OP's post.

    Economics. Simple really.
    evolving_doors wrote: »
    You still don't get it. The books aren't the only issue... it's everything else that goes with it. The books were ONE example.
    It's also not a case of improvising.
    The funds are there.
    Access is not

    It was a silly point to highlight, it makes for a weak/lazy argument.
    evolving_doors wrote: »
    You still don't get it.

    This attempt at condescension is a poor cliché. Show don't tell (see, we can both make trite remarks). Let your argument make the case.


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  • #42
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,700 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Have a read of the op again.

    Have a go at answering the question.


  • #43
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Hopefully people get behind this

    As the guy said on the radio replace the word disabled with gay or black and see what the uproar would be like


  • #44
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Hopefully people get behind this

    As the guy said on the radio replace the word disabled with gay or black and see what the uproar would be like

    Get behind what..? A march? (I've probably missed a few pages of the thread)


  • #45
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Get behind what..? A march? (I've probably missed a few pages of the thread)

    Equality


  • #46
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    There is a finite amount of money for social services. When non contributing pisstakers soak up more than their fair share it leaves less for more deserving cases. But if you rail against this you are a fascist.


  • #47
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    There is a finite amount of money for social services. When non contributing pisstakers soak up more than their fair share it leaves less for more deserving cases. But if you rail against this you are a fascist.

    It's not that the money isn't there. It's the ridiculous process to access it.


  • #48
    Spider Web
    Closed Accounts Posts: 386 ✭✭Spider Web


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Hopefully people get behind this

    As the guy said on the radio replace the word disabled with gay or black and see what the uproar would be like
    Replace it with those words in what context? Nobody sane wants a disabled person or their carer to suffer.


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Widdershins wrote: »
    I have seen some things written by Tom Clonan about these problems. If I remember correctly a big issue for him is the govt. pushing people toward care in the community when often it's care in a residential home with more supervision that they need. Can only assume it's a cost cutting thing.

    Do you really think anyone wants to live in a 'residential home'? Do you think anyone wants to have their daily schedule dictated by staff rotas, and their daily diet dictated by a service budget? Do you think anyone wants to be restricted from making a cup of tea when they feel like making a cup of tea? Do you think anyone wants 'more supervision' instead of having the key to their own front door?

    People with disabilities don't need supervision. They need support to live the lives of their own choosing. No-one chooses a residential home, except possibly those that have been so institutionalised by years of residential living that they can't see any alternative.


  • #50
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Do you really think anyone wants to live in a 'residential home'? Do you think anyone wants to have their daily schedule dictated by staff rotas, and their daily diet dictated by a service budget? Do you think anyone wants to be restricted from making a cup of tea when they feel like making a cup of tea? Do you think anyone wants 'more supervision' instead of having the key to their own front door?

    People with disabilities don't need supervision. They need support to live the lives of their own choosing. No-one chooses a residential home, except possibly those that have been so institutionalised by years of residential living that they can't see any alternative.

    With all due respect, you're wrong. Some do choose a home. Usually their parents choose it for them because they don't have the understanding to make those choices. The difficulty I was referring to is for people whose needs are too high to allow them to cope (partly) on their own.
    I wasn't suggesting that residential care is better or more suitable for anyone who is able to manage in a more independent setting. But you obviously aren't thinking of people who need support at hand/nearby.

    Obviously everyone would prefer the person they currently care for to have a future of making their own tea, coming and going at their own leisure and generally looking after themselves and not being in danger at the same time. That's not the reality for everyone and saying ''independent living is better and nicer'' is never going to make independent living a realistic possibility for everyone.

    I'm not even sure I didn't get Tom Clonan's point backwards, maybe he was arguing for less residential and more independent settings. But it would be an issue for some anyway. The lack of SUITABLE care in whatever form that takes is the issue, I think...

    Don't forget carers of adults with alzheimers, independent living is not often an option the more it progresses.


  • #51
    Grab All Association
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,071 ✭✭✭Grab All Association


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Yes, apart from access to healthcare, employment, transport, housing, education, arts and cultural facilities and events, social and entertainment - apart from those things (and possibly a few that I've forgotten) disabled people aren't discriminated against.

    Total BS. I worked for a town council for 3½ years. Young people (mostly men) with severe mental, physical (or both) disabilities are never prioritised. It was always the voluntary sector picking up the tab to house these people.

    I heard one story from a tenant of these housing charities
    who despite paying €60pw for a one bed apartment in a complex had no privacy and staff would regularly come in to his "home" to 'clean' amd would throw out his stuff he wanted to keep. Photos of his late wife were binned on him.


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  • #52
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Nothing you have described is discrimination. You really need to consider the point being made instead of just throwing out random examples of the struggles disabled people face.

    Take your playground without the specially modified swings for example, who specifically is doing the discriminating? The swings there are open to all and sundry, not one single person is being denied the opportunity to use those swings. Not one single person is barred from using those swings. There is no discrimination.

    There are people who for their own reasons cannot use the swings. Thats a shame but it is not discrimination on the part of the government or council.

    You don't need an end to discrimination because there isn't any. What you need is help above and beyond what everybody else gets, thats something else entirely. And I have no problem with fighting for that extra help, I just think it helps nobody to use such a loaded term as "discrimination" when it really doesn't apply at all.

    You dont seem to understand what discrimination means. By not providing access to children with disabilities to use the playground the local council which provided it is discriminating against children with disabilities. The children are not looking for something "extra" - they are looking for equal access.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #53
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    So the state is actively trying to discriminate against the child referenced in the OP? The "government" is sitting in a room somewhere dreaming up ways to stop that child getting the same services that everybody else gets? The community is helping every other child except that one?

    Of course not. I'm not going to repeat the same simple point over and over but it is a very simple point. There is a big difference between A) actively discriminating against somebody and B) actively helping somebody to overcome challenges. What that child needs more of is B, what you people are talking about is A, and in doing so aren't helping the child at all.

    Discrimination does not have to be an active process. It can also be a passive process in failing to act.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #54
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,591 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    Why do people always jump to gender discrimination these days? I suspect both hanlon's and occam's razor explain the cause of this father and son's plight better than anything else.


  • #55
    goulders
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭goulders


    No company or service will make changes until forced to do so to accommodate persons with disabilities.
    Check what made car hire companies change. Car hire firm's with thousands of non adapted car's yet not one for a disabled driver.
    Thing's are ok now but it took 6 cases before the equality tribunal to sort it out.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63433693


  • #56
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ahnowbrowncow wrote: »
    Why do people always jump to gender discrimination these days? I suspect both hanlon's and occam's razor explain the cause of this father and son's plight better than anything else.

    Noone mentioned gender discrimination. I think He outlined the case himself quite well.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/tom-clonan-ive-had-enough-we-need-a-campaign-for-our-brothers-and-sisters-disabled-by-our-state-3539218-Aug2017/

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/tom-clonan-disability-2-3603872-Sep2017/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Grab All Association wrote: »
    Total BS. I worked for a town council for 3½ years. Young people (mostly men) with severe mental, physical (or both) disabilities are never prioritised. It was always the voluntary sector picking up the tab to house these people.

    I heard one story from a tenant of these housing charities
    who despite paying €60pw for a one bed apartment in a complex had no privacy and staff would regularly come in to his "home" to 'clean' amd would throw out his stuff he wanted to keep. Photos of his late wife were binned on him.

    It is possible that some of my sarcasm got lost in translation - just to be clear, I was being sarcastic. I am very clear on the kind of discrimination that hits people with disabilities from public services and private businesses all the time.

    People with disabilities who have a medical need for housing do get some priority points in the housing allocation process.

    I don't think you're quite being fair to say 'it is always the voluntary sector' given that the vast majority of funding for approved housing bodies like Cluid, Sophia, HAIL is state funding. The same applies to specialist disability service providers like IWA or Brothers of Charity who also provide some limited housing directly. The AHBs work closely with local authority housing depts about taking people from the LA housing lists.
    Widdershins wrote: »
    With all due respect, you're wrong. Some do choose a home. Usually their parents choose it for them because they don't have the understanding to make those choices. The difficulty I was referring to is for people whose needs are too high to allow them to cope (partly) on their own.
    I wasn't suggesting that residential care is better or more suitable for anyone who is able to manage in a more independent setting. But you obviously aren't thinking of people who need support at hand/nearby.

    Obviously everyone would prefer the person they currently care for to have a future of making their own tea, coming and going at their own leisure and generally looking after themselves and not being in danger at the same time. That's not the reality for everyone and saying ''independent living is better and nicer'' is never going to make independent living a realistic possibility for everyone.

    I'm not even sure I didn't get Tom Clonan's point backwards, maybe he was arguing for less residential and more independent settings. But it would be an issue for some anyway. The lack of SUITABLE care in whatever form that takes is the issue, I think...

    Don't forget carers of adults with alzheimers, independent living is not often an option the more it progresses.

    With all due respect, I'm not wrong. And you've proved my point by indicated that these are often parental/family choices to put or keep people in residential units instead of community living. Why would parents get to make the choices for other adults?

    Community living does not mean living with mammy and daddy. It means living independently, maybe on your own or maybe in a shared unit with whatever supports are necessary. And yes, I absolutely AM thinking of those people who need support on hand/nearby. That support can also be provided in community settings. Some people need 24x7 support, some might need a daily visit, some might need more occasional support - all those supports can and are provided in community settings with visiting PAs or similar.
    ahnowbrowncow wrote: »
    Why do people always jump to gender discrimination these days? I suspect both hanlon's and occam's razor explain the cause of this father and son's plight better than anything else.

    Gender discrimination? You can explain away what's happening with whatever razors you like, but the problems are still there. People with disabilities still have much reduced opportunities for education, transport, employment and social engagement than others. That needs to change.
    goulders wrote: »
    No company or service will make changes until forced to do so to accommodate persons with disabilities.
    Check what made car hire companies change. Car hire firm's with thousands of non adapted car's yet not one for a disabled driver.
    Thing's are ok now but it took 6 cases before the equality tribunal to sort it out.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63433693
    Well done, that's a huge achievement. Though I'm not sure that it is fair to see that ALL companies need to be forced. Smart companies recognise that people with disabilities make up about 1 in 7 of the population here. What business can afford to turn away 1 in 7 potential customers? What business can afford to turn away a billion people or so worldwide?


  • #58
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »



    With all due respect, I'm not wrong. And you've proved my point by indicated that these are often parental/family choices to put or keep people in residential units instead of community living. Why would parents get to make the choices for other adults?

    Community living does not mean living with mammy and daddy. It means living independently, maybe on your own or maybe in a shared unit with whatever supports are necessary. And yes, I absolutely AM thinking of those people who need support on hand/nearby. That support can also be provided in community settings. Some people need 24x7 support, some might need a daily visit, some might need more occasional support - all those supports can and are provided in community settings with visiting PAs or similar.




    That happens in situations where they are the primary carers and the person being cared for doesn't have a mental capacity to make the decision. You must surely be aware that some people are intellectually disabled to that point? Who else could make the decision r.e their living situation?

    I have not met anyone who has been offered adequate levels of support in commuity settings for the person they care for and it's not been an option for them for that reason. They do need a place for the person being cared for because caring for a family member wears people out utterly, but they cannot allow them to go to a place that's not fully supervised with someone available to assist at all times when needed. Those people need live-in carers and none were offered outside of residential centres.

    THe comment r.e ''mammy and daddy'' was just silly. Clearly I was not talking about them living at home, but alternatives to that.


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Widdershins wrote: »
    That happens in situations where they are the primary carers and the person being cared for doesn't have a mental capacity to make the decision. You must surely be aware that some people are intellectually disabled to that point? Who else could make the decision r.e their living situation?

    I have not met anyone who has been offered adequate levels of support in commuity settings for the person they care for and it's not been an option for them for that reason. They do need a place for the person being cared for because caring for a family member wears people out utterly, but they cannot allow them to go to a place that's not fully supervised with someone available to assist at all times when needed. Those people need live-in carers and none were offered outside of residential centres.

    THe comment r.e ''mammy and daddy'' was just silly. Clearly I was not talking about them living at home, but alternatives to that.

    Check out Martin Dooher's story;

    http://www.fedvol.ie/_fileupload/Next%20Steps/Dissemination%20event/2_Martin%20Dooher%20Next%20Steps%20Presntation.pdf


  • #60
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Check out Martin Dooher's story;

    http://www.fedvol.ie/_fileupload/Next%20Steps/Dissemination%20event/2_Martin%20Dooher%20Next%20Steps%20Presntation.pdf

    I don't need to, badly run institutions are nothing new and sometimes abuse was rife in them. That doesn't negate the need some people have for that kind of setting, but closely monitored and of a high quality. Alternatively if a full time professional carer/s can be provided to someone living in community settings then that's perfect . It just isn't happening. Some need more care and assistance than they'd get in community care.


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  • #61
    mohawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭mohawk


    Regarding housing i.e. independent living verses residential home. There is not a one size fits all solution here. There are so many different types of disabilities which can be mild, moderate or severe. Decisions need to be made on a case by case basis. I know of a guy back home who has severe epilepsy, is deaf, blind, nonverbal and paralyzed. He is unable to feed himself, bathe himself etc. When his parents pass on there is no way on earth he will be able to live in an independent living setting. Where as others I know may have intellectual disabilities but are able to make themselves a cup of tea and a bit of lunch and all they need is someone nearby who can step in and come to their aid if needed.

    The other part which makes me really mad is that for some kids if you provide the right interventions now while they are young down the line they would be able to go to college and get jobs. They would then be contributing members of society. The cuts made to the HSE during the recession really have been devastating. This government and all previous governments have been very short-term and lazy with their planning and financing.


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