Brexit discussion thread II

oscarBravo · 23-09-2017 04:45PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Opposing the majority will of the people isn't respecting democracy.

By which argument, canvassing for an opposition party prior to an election is undemocratic.

Opposing the majority will of the people is what minorities do. How the bloody hell are you supposed to persuade the majority of the validity of your position if you're going to be shouted down as an enemy of democracy for having the temerity to disagree?

I've complained about the mindless worship of democracy many times on this forum, but I've never seen it taken to quite such a ridiculous extreme. If you were in the minority of a group in which the majority voted to commit suicide, would you feel honour-bound to top yourself? Or would you suddenly find it in your heart to stop "respecting democracy"?

I'll have a lot more respect for democracy when its blind adherents stop coming out with stupid platitudes that amount to little more than "the majority has spoken so SHUT UP".

steddyeddy · 23-09-2017 04:48PM

Watching May's speech and Question Time the other night I was struck by the amount of entitlement the leave voters and the UK in general have towards the EU. May in her speech suggested that a deal like the Canadian-EU deal wouldn't be good enough for Britain. She talked about what the UK needs in terms of a trade deal and then followed with a few lines about how the UK doesn't like the EU.

So in other words you have to do a trade deal with us, but just to remind you, we don't really like the EU.

murphaph · 23-09-2017 05:12PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Watching May's speech and Question Time the other night I was struck by the amount of entitlement the leave voters and the UK in general have towards the EU. May in her speech suggested that a deal like the Canadian-EU deal wouldn't be good enough for Britain. She talked about what the UK needs in terms of a trade deal and then followed with a few lines about how the UK doesn't like the EU.

So in other words you have to do a trade deal with us, but just to remind you, we don't really like the EU.

And the UK press seems to believe a transitional period is a given, should the UK request it! The EU would of course need to agree to it but without a direction, a plan, there is perhaps less appetite for this in Brussels than UK politicians might believe.

Jim2007 · 23-09-2017 05:59PM

murphaph wrote: »

And the UK press seems to believe a transitional period is a given, should the UK request it! The EU would of course need to agree to it but without a direction, a plan, there is perhaps less appetite for this in Brussels than UK politicians might believe.

Well at the very least we'd want to know what they are transition to....

Jim2007 · 23-09-2017 06:07PM

murphaph wrote: »

May does know that WTO terms (if the EU even allows that to happen... it's not clear if the UK has an automatic right to their quotas!) is not an option.

The EU did try to open this discussion with the WTO in regard to the reallocation of tariff free quotas and not surprisingly none of the other member were happy to have to share their already allocations. So that is already not very positive.

And of course if they walk await with not deal, it is very likely that the EU could tie their application up for years.

Zubeneschamali · 23-09-2017 06:18PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

And of course if they walk await with not deal, it is very likely that the EU could tie their application up for years.

...and since we all know they will loudly and constantly blame the EU for their misfortunes which they bring upon themselves, even if the EU tries their best to help...

...why try to help? Why not kick them when they are down? They would do the same.

Hell, they are trying to kick us while we are still up, for no damn reason except internal Tory party politics.

Alan_P · 23-09-2017 06:23PM

murphaph wrote: »

And the UK press seems to believe a transitional period is a given, should the UK request it! The EU would of course need to agree to it but without a direction, a plan, there is perhaps less appetite for this in Brussels than UK politicians might believe.

That point occured to me this morning, when I saw headlines along the lines of "May delays departure", "Brexit delayed for 2 years". May in fact was requesting an extension :- I concur that there may be significant resistance to granting one.

The simple fact is that a number of the EU27 simply don't have a lot of skin in this game,aren't particularly interested, don't care a whole lot and may conclude that a no deal Brexit on the original deadline is the simplest, cleanest option. What's the point of an extension if they're just going to be dealing with the same British nonsense at the end of it ? Better just to throw them out on the original, Article 50 deadline.

The Rape of Lucretia · 23-09-2017 06:25PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

...and since we all know they will loudly and constantly blame the EU for their misfortunes which they bring upon themselves, even if the EU tries their best to help...

That will be old-man-yells-at-cloud country though - it wont matter. The EU will have moved on and not care.

Nody · 23-09-2017 06:38PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

...and since we all know they will loudly and constantly blame the EU for their misfortunes which they bring upon themselves, even if the EU tries their best to help...

...why try to help? Why not kick them when they are down? They would do the same.

Hell, they are trying to kick us while we are still up, for no damn reason except internal Tory party politics.

Because it's the right thing to do.

Morals is not about doing what's right when it's easy but when it's hard and the simple fact is there's no need to kick UK because they are doing an excellent job on their own of doing so. You can call it moral high ground or what ever but simply acting as mature adults doing our part and trying to help will go a lot longer beyond Brexit in the long term. Not only will it smooth a future transition back but it will also show that EU are not acting as children with a tantrum even if our counterpart does and will continue to be adults at the discussion table.

First Up · 23-09-2017 07:18PM

murphaph wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Both Barnier and Verhofstadt have made it very clear in the last few days that the EU has no intention of letting the UK do any such thing.

What this means is that whatever deal is done between the EU and the UK, it will not result in any disadvantage to Ireland's relations with and access to the rest of the EU.

It remains to be seen how that impacts on Northern Ireland and cross border traffic but the UK has been left in no doubt that Ireland is not a bargaining chip in this.

I think we're seeing who our true friends are for sure. Verhofstadt in particular is a powerful ally IMO. The European Parliament must give its ascent to any deal or it's sunk.

May does know that WTO terms (if the EU even allows that to happen... it's not clear if the UK has an automatic right to their quotas!) is not an option. Otherwise she'd have gone for them already. That's what she's like. If the UK messes with Ireland, they may find it impossible to trade with any WTO member!

It's in the EU's hands.

WTO doesn't have quotas.

ancapailldorcha · 23-09-2017 07:22PM

First Up wrote: »

WTO doesn't have quotas.

It does. It's why Tate & Lyle came out in favour of Brexit. The WTO treats the EU as a single nation so any quota is spread across the bloc.

Water John · 23-09-2017 07:32PM

I think Davis has to step up to the mark at the next round of talks and put flesh on the bones of what May said.
Wonder will Mogg articulate further his belief that being subject to the ECJ over the transition was a red line for him? Will he take that to the party conference?

First Up · 23-09-2017 07:37PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

WTO doesn't have quotas.

It does. It's why Tate & Lyle came out in favour of Brexit. The WTO treats the EU as a single nation so any quota is spread across the bloc.

It doesn't. The WTO is working to have quotas eliminated. Quotas are set by countries (and the EU for some items). The WTO has intervened in disputes about quotas but it has no role (or desire to be involved) in setting or enforcing them.

solodeogloria · 23-09-2017 07:55PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It does. It's why Tate & Lyle came out in favour of Brexit. The WTO treats the EU as a single nation so any quota is spread across the bloc.

Good evening!

Tate & Lyle opposed the EU common tariff on sugar cane to protect European sugar beet producers. Not quotas.

Most people accept that this common tariff will have to be a part of WTO schedules when Britain joins, but there is no reason why it couldn't be relaxed after Britain is fully a member.

This is another reason why localised tariff policies could benefit the UK after Brexit, because the UK will be able to consider what will benefit Britain specifically rather than the EU as a whole.

oscarBravo wrote: »

By which argument, canvassing for an opposition party prior to an election is undemocratic.

Opposing the majority will of the people is what minorities do. How the bloody hell are you supposed to persuade the majority of the validity of your position if you're going to be shouted down as an enemy of democracy for having the temerity to disagree?

I've complained about the mindless worship of democracy many times on this forum, but I've never seen it taken to quite such a ridiculous extreme. If you were in the minority of a group in which the majority voted to commit suicide, would you feel honour-bound to top yourself? Or would you suddenly find it in your heart to stop "respecting democracy"?

I'll have a lot more respect for democracy when its blind adherents stop coming out with stupid platitudes that amount to little more than "the majority has spoken so SHUT UP".

If you had read my whole post you wouldn't be making this argument.

I've said people can clearly campaign for whatever they want. Hard remainers have their work cut out. Meanwhile, the result of the referendum is being implemented.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Nody · 23-09-2017 08:40PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Tate & Lyle opposed the EU common tariff on sugar cane to protect European sugar beet producers. Not quotas.

Most people accept that this common tariff will have to be a part of WTO schedules when Britain joins, but there is no reason why it couldn't be relaxed after Britain is fully a member.

This is another reason why localised tariff policies could benefit the UK after Brexit, because the UK will be able to consider what will benefit Britain specifically rather than the EU as a whole.

Except of course for any exports that includes sugar in any form in the product to EU which now needs to calculate the exact amount of sugar to add the relevant tariffs (and yes I've been involved in that process and to call it painful and complex would be an understatement) which goes from Cadbury chocolate over drinks to cookies to cakes etc. I'm sure Tayte will be happy but I'm willing to bet there's a whole lot bigger market who're not going to be very happy about that idea (well except UK dentists since the sugar content can now be increased cheaply again).

murphaph · 23-09-2017 09:00PM

Your average German Facebook poster does not seem too impressed with the latest post by HM Government lol...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159299397600394&id=408582579294175

It's interesting that the UK government feels the need to try to speak directly to the German public via Facebook! No deal is clearly not an option!

Leonard Hofstadter · 23-09-2017 10:14PM

murphaph wrote: »

Your average German Facebook poster does not seem too impressed with the latest post by HM Government lol...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159299397600394&id=408582579294175

It's interesting that the UK government feels the need to try to speak directly to the German public via Facebook! No deal is clearly not an option!

Indeed, my limited knowledge of German suggests that most posters either can't understand why the UK is leaving (something I also still can't understand - and I live in the UK!) or else are saying what Mrs Merkel and others in the EU27 are saying - no more having cake and eating it.

Also, the Torygraph is reporting that Boris has said there will be no more EU rules from 2019 so we've barely managed a day of cabinet unity after all of that.

I don't know how anyone - be they leave or remain voters, can have any faith in what the Tories are up to.

I wouldn't mind but I actually had some hope after yesterday, it was great to see (at long long last) them slowly starting to orbit back into planet Earth and I thought most of what Mrs May said was eminently sensible (apart from the glaring omission about the border).

Water John · 23-09-2017 10:52PM

Yes Boris looking to, book end May's Florence speech.
It's a fight between the right and far right for the Tory heart.
Jacob and Boris setting out red lines, hoping to catch a wave.

Who are the EU talking to?

Junkyard Tom · 23-09-2017 11:58PM

Cameron facilitated a referendum to placate the lunatic-fringe of the Tory Party and all it has achieved is an emboldening of them. What's going on in Britain is absolutely remarkable to watch - like a car crash in slow motion.

steddyeddy · 24-09-2017 12:22AM

Water John wrote: »

Yes Boris looking to, book end May's Florence speech.
It's a fight between the right and far right for the Tory heart.
Jacob and Boris setting out red lines, hoping to catch a wave.

Who are the EU talking to?

The last time two Tory Etonians had a fight the UK left the biggest single market in the world and now faces its greatest economic threat in decades.

If the UK's voters had any sense they would stop voting for people like Jacob and Boris. People from Eton with no idea of what it is to actually have to work as hard as the rest of us do, who instead fill their time with power plays that destroy the British economy for hard working people.

Jim2007 · 24-09-2017 01:12AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What's going on in Britain is absolutely remarkable to watch - like a car crash in slow motion.

Yes it is truly amazingly, I know a few Brits here who were very pro BREXIT until a couple of weeks ago. They have now woken up to the reality that early next year Switzerland will start rejecting their applications to renew their long term work permits on the basis that they are about to become a third country and are no longer entitled to such permanents.

For some the car crash is closer than for others.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-09-2017 01:26AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Predictions about 200 years time are a valueless currency.

Look at how most of the predictions about UK / US from two years panned out.

Samaris · 24-09-2017 09:51AM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Yes it is truly amazingly, I know a few Brits here who were very pro BREXIT until a couple of weeks ago. They have now woken up to the reality that early next year Switzerland will start rejecting their applications to renew their long term work permits on the basis that they are about to become a third country and are no longer entitled to such permanents.

For some the car crash is closer than for others.

It is a bit mad how some people voted very much against their own interests. I mean, in my opinion, the Leave vote in general was against the UK's interests, but those specifically and directly impacted, like farmers or your people there. And now it's suddenly "wait, this wasn't supposed to happen, why didn't anyone warn us?"

Regardless of my view on the overall vote, in the case of farmers and fishing and those relying on EU permit renewal, it was turkeys voting for Christmas.

murphaph · 24-09-2017 10:21AM

Samaris wrote: »

It is a bit mad how some people voted very much against their own interests. I mean, in my opinion, the Leave vote in general was against the UK's interests, but those specifically and directly impacted, like farmers or your people there. And now it's suddenly "wait, this wasn't supposed to happen, why didn't anyone warn us?"

Regardless of my view on the overall vote, in the case of farmers and fishing and those relying on EU permit renewal, it was turkeys voting for Christmas.

For the fishermen there was a logical argument in favour of Brexit, but they are a tiny minority in this regard. Farmers who voted leave are simply mad.

The Rape of Lucretia · 24-09-2017 10:32AM

murphaph wrote: »

Farmers who voted leave are simply mad.

Or were willing to pay whatever price necessary to take back control, regain their sovrinty, respect what their grandfathers fought for in WW2, stop Polski Skleps opening on every single corner, and to not be told by some gravy train eurocrat in Brussels that they cannot market their turnips as swedes, but must call them turnips.
And no price is too high to pay for that.

Calina · 24-09-2017 10:37AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

Farmers who voted leave are simply mad.

Or were willing to pay whatever price necessary to take back control, regain their sovrinty, respect what their grandfathers fought for in WW2, stop Polski Skleps opening on every single corner, and to not be told by some gravy train eurocrat in Brussels that they cannot market their turnips as swedes, but must call them turnips.
And no price is too high to pay for that.

Including bankruptcy and losing their farms? You think that is what their grandparents fought for? And really, The xenophobic comment about Polish shops is tragic and a chronic exaggeration.

Water John · 24-09-2017 10:46AM

Was watching 'This Farming Life' during the week. A crofter in Northern Scotland was having his subsidy decreased further to one ninth of what farmers with better land were getting per acre.
This is not an EU fault but how the UK implemented EU policy. Rural places like that, will be savaged when EU subsidies stop.

Professor Moriarty · 24-09-2017 11:25AM

Samaris wrote: »

It is a bit mad how some people voted very much against their own interests. I mean, in my opinion, the Leave vote in general was against the UK's interests, but those specifically and directly impacted, like farmers or your people there. And now it's suddenly "wait, this wasn't supposed to happen, why didn't anyone warn us?"

Regardless of my view on the overall vote, in the case of farmers and fishing and those relying on EU permit renewal, it was turkeys voting for Christmas.

Of Leave voters who expressed a preference, 51% would be happy to see a family member lose their job so that Brexit will happen. 61% of all Leave voters believe that significant damage to the British economy is a price worth paying for Brexit. Self-harm isn't an issue for Leave voters.

It occurs to me that the other 39% of Leave voters, who believe that significant damage to the economy isn't a price worth paying, were either grossly misinformed or very stupid when they voted Leave.

Jim2007 · 24-09-2017 12:48PM

murphaph wrote: »

Farmers who voted leave are simply mad.

Well there was a sort of logic there. You need to remember that in the UK the people who own the land and the people who farm the land are not one and the same thing, as in Ireland. Many land owners collect sizeable subsidies without even undertaking any farming activities.

Pro BREXIT farmers saw it as an opportunity to discourage further landowner investing in the hope that land prices would fall to a level where they could buy their own farms.

Lemming · 24-09-2017 01:16PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Yes it is truly amazingly, I know a few Brits here who were very pro BREXIT until a couple of weeks ago. They have now woken up to the reality that early next year Switzerland will start rejecting their applications to renew their long term work permits on the basis that they are about to become a third country and are no longer entitled to such permanents.

For some the car crash is closer than for others.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Of Leave voters who expressed a preference, 51% would be happy to see a family member lose their job so that Brexit will happen. 61% of all Leave voters believe that significant damage to the British economy is a price worth paying for Brexit. Self-harm isn't an issue for Leave voters.

Remember folks: it's a price worth paying/no price is too high/etc. when it's somebody else footing the bill. As Jim's acquaintances in Switzerland are suddenly discovering.

I've encountered the same with former friends/workmates/etc. who are cheerleading the process farce who don't see what the problem is when I point out to them that the Home Office want to strip me of all rights and in order to get any of them back I must apply for them and still risk being rejected, even though I am entitled to those rights, becaues the H.O. don't know up from down at the best of times. And because it's not happening to them, therefore "what's the problem?", "Why don't you just leave then?" etc.

Brexit discussion thread II

Comments