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Brexit discussion thread II

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  • #3422
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    ‘One thing which is just worth having in mind: 2 per cent of the older part of the electorate die every year - they are 70 per cent Conservative’[/URL]
    - Lord Heseltine


    Probably a good time to remind anyone interested that support for staying in the EU was 99% amongst Full Time Students here.

    But as people get older, they get more conservative !


  • #3423
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Good evening!

    Yes, but that's what the UK requires right now.

    Buying time is definitely the right thing to do while it makes major preparations for the next stage in the UK's history. I think the Prime Minister did a great job at presenting her stall and she set the right tone without bending to all of the demands from Brussels.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria
    Buying time is exactly what they're doing. A cool €20bn, for two years + the withdrawal payment, whenever that happens.

    The UK is heading for Brexit-lite, it's unlikely a meaningful exit is now going to take place. I wonder will the Tory party be able to survive this?


  • #3424
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Why do people always use this argument? It's been used for generations and generations but it's just bollocks. The world does not work like that.
    It's actually how the world works. Old ideas die with their last believers die. It's happened to religions, languages and even politics.

    ‘One thing which is just worth having in mind: 2 per cent of the older part of the electorate die every year - they are 70 per cent Conservative’
    - Lord Heseltine


    Probably a good time to remind anyone interested that support for staying in the EU was 99% amongst Full Time Students here.
    This same argument was used when Tony Blair was cleaning up, people said the Conservatives would never gain power again and that social liberalism which cursed the nation would deny them. But politics is always on the move, you can't just say because some 16 year old who dislikes Brexit will be against it when he is 45 with 3 kids.


  • #3425
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Why do people always use this argument? It's been used for generations and generations but it's just bollocks. The world does not work like that.

    Have you looked at the polls lately? Have you been following the local elections in Britain? Have you been following the Labour-led crowd-funding for targeting CON's Westminster seats? Have you taken a look at the seats that the CON's are holding onto with slim majorities? I doubt you have.

    The CON's are taking a pasting. If things keep going the way they are the CON's won't have a majority again for a generation.

    They don't need a majority to remain in government. Labour won't be gaining any majority for probably another 10 years when inevitably it switches, not with Jeremy Corbyn as leader. It's near impossible with such policies to form an overall majority.


  • #3426
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    It's actually how the world works. Old ideas die with their last believers die. It's happened to religions, languages and even politics.

    ‘One thing which is just worth having in mind: 2 per cent of the older part of the electorate die every year - they are 70 per cent Conservative’
    - Lord Heseltine


    Probably a good time to remind anyone interested that support for staying in the EU was 99% amongst Full Time Students here.

    Good evening!

    Leaving the ignorant comments about "religions" aside. (it's only nominal pick and mix faith that's dying)

    The idea that's dying is that Britain somehow needs to be a part of a European superstate to survive. Lord Heseltine is one of the last adherents.

    Half of those who voted remain just want the Prime Minister to get the job done (myself included) from YouGov polling. Lord Heseltine is assuming that every remain voter would vote to join again. That's definitely not true.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


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  • #3427
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    The idea that's dying is that Britain somehow needs to be a part of a European superstate to survive.

    Straw man there buddy. No one ever said the 'survival' of Britain was in question post Britain. Only that it would be economically and culturally better off as part of Europe, and that leaving would be harmful on both fronts. But fair enough if the less educated of its population tipped a balance towards dreaming of the old empire and kicking bloody foreigners out.
    Of course it will survive. Just be the poorer for being outside the EU.


  • #3428
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,954 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Straw man there buddy. No one ever said the 'survival' of Britain was in question post Britain. Only that it would be economically and culturally better off as part of Europe, and that leaving would be harmful on both fronts. But fair enough if the less educated of its population tipped a balance towards dreaming of the old empire and kicking bloody foreigners out.
    Of course it will survive. Just be the poorer for being outside the EU.

    'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' may not survive.


  • #3429
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Straw man there buddy. No one ever said the 'survival' of Britain was in question post Britain. Only that it would be economically and culturally better off as part of Europe, and that leaving would be harmful on both fronts. But fair enough if the less educated of its population tipped a balance towards dreaming of the old empire and kicking bloody foreigners out.
    Of course it will survive. Just be the poorer for being outside the EU.

    Well it all depends on harsh brexit is and if you'd consider England and Wales on their own to be Britain.


  • #3430
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    But as people get older, they get more conservative !
    I'd You could also argue it's more common that as people get older the world around them just gets more progressive.


  • #3431
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Well it all depends on harsh brexit is and if you'd consider England and Wales on their own to be Britain.

    I would. Scotland they would like to hang on to for the sake of tradition, integration, and geographical unity - but it would still be Britain without it. Northern Ireland is just a legacy problem child, and being rid of it would be a dream come true for them.


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  • #3432
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    solodeogloria wrote: »
    The idea that's dying is that Britain somehow needs to be a part of a European superstate to survive.

    Straw man there buddy. No one ever said the 'survival' of Britain was in question post Britain. Only that it would be economically and culturally better off as part of Europe, and that leaving would be harmful on both fronts. But fair enough if the less educated of its population tipped a balance towards dreaming of the old empire and kicking bloody foreigners out.
    Of course it will survive. Just be the poorer for being outside the EU.
    The UK wasn't always in the EU and the EU will collapse sooner or later. The likes of Juncker and Barnier remind me of Honorius in 410. It is very difficult to keep countries united which are either ethnically or culturally different to one another in a 'club' in this case the EU.

    By 2030-2045 I think you will see other countries having left the EU. Once one of the pillars collapses, it's just a matter of time before it tumbles.


  • #3433
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,997 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Nothing new in the speech at all. Just asked for an extension to continue dithering.


  • #3434
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The UK wasn't always in the EU and the EU will collapse sooner or later. The likes of Juncker and Barnier remind me of Honorius in 410. It is very difficult to keep countries united which are either ethnically or culturally different to one another in a 'club' in this case the EU.

    By 2030-2045 I think you will see other countries having left the EU. Once one of the pillars collapses, it's just a matter of time before it tumbles.

    The troublesome pillar was always off to the side and never part of the structure. EU was there before it, and have removed the rotten apple, its hard to see it not being stronger without the UK despite the loss of a significant economic component. It really could be the making of the EU as the whinger in the back seat that keeps reaching forward to pull the handbrake is left on the side of the road.


  • #3435
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,997 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The UK wasn't always in the EU and the EU will collapse sooner or later. The likes of Juncker and Barnier remind me of Honorius in 410. It is very difficult to keep countries united which are either ethnically or culturally different to one another in a 'club' in this case the EU.

    By 2030-2045 I think you will see other countries having left the EU. Once one of the pillars collapses, it's just a matter of time before it tumbles.
    This old chestnut again. To be honest since Brexit I've begun to feel culturally closer to my fellow Europeans who want to remain united.


  • #3436
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »

    By 2030-2045 I think you will see other countries having left the EU. Once one of the pillars collapses, it's just a matter of time before it tumbles.

    Are you calling the UK a pillar? The UK has never been a pillar of the EU a 5th column perhaps.
    The UK is a major country in the EU, next to Germany and France. It leaving is a huge historical symbol which the history books in 200 years time will show was the sign of the eventual breakup of the EU concept. It's happened throughout history.


  • #3437
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The UK is a major country in the EU, next to Germany and France. It leaving is a huge historical symbol which the history books in 200 years time will show was the sign of the eventual breakup of the EU concept. It's happened throughout history.

    Predictions about 200 years time are a valueless currency.


  • #3438
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,954 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The UK is a major country in the EU, next to Germany and France. It leaving is a huge historical symbol which the history books in 200 years time will show was the sign of the eventual breakup of the EU concept. It's happened throughout history.

    It could just as easily be the first sign of a once powerful state regressing/reverting to what it actually is, a small isolated self-involved island off Europe.

    What do you make of the talk of a sea border to solve the Irish problem?


  • #3439
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The UK wasn't always in the EU and the EU will collapse sooner or later. The likes of Juncker and Barnier remind me of Honorius in 410. It is very difficult to keep countries united which are either ethnically or culturally different to one another in a 'club' in this case the EU.

    By 2030-2045 I think you will see other countries having left the EU. Once one of the pillars collapses, it's just a matter of time before it tumbles.

    Why do they remind you of Honorius in 410? Are the Vandals invading Rome again? Is Rome refusing to send money to Britain again?

    Perhaps a better comparison from 410 would be Constantine III and Theresa May. I look forward to her execution next year.


  • #3440
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    murphaph wrote: »
    This old chestnut again. To be honest since Brexit I've begun to feel culturally closer to my fellow Europeans who want to remain united.

    Good evening!

    The more and more I've seen from Brussels, the less and less I feel for the European project. It's been a settling time. I used to be a Eurosceptic who wanted the European Union to reform. I've now stopped believing that was ever possible and started to see that if the only reasons people can offer for staying in are fearmongering then it's just better to go.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


  • #3441
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,928 ✭✭✭eire4


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It could just as easily be the first sign of a once powerful state regressing/reverting to what it actually is, a small isolated self-involved island off Europe.

    What do you make of the talk of a sea border to solve the Irish problem?

    Or you could even say it was seen as the begining of the end for the UK as it breaks up starting with Scottish independence.


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  • #3442
    mountaintop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭mountaintop


    Resigning from this thread. The bigot Brexiteers can't see any point of view but their own, going round and round in circles. The days of 'No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish' still apply except the sign reads 'No Poles, No Romanians, No Refugees', and the people putting up the signs are the quisling Irish who've forgotten where they come from. I'll probably get another warning from the moderator for this. Would someone do the same with Donald Trump on twitter. At least there's no fear of me starting World War Three.


  • #3443
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The UK wasn't always in the EU and the EU will collapse sooner or later. The likes of Juncker and Barnier remind me of Honorius in 410. It is very difficult to keep countries united which are either ethnically or culturally different to one another in a 'club' in this case the EU.

    By 2030-2045 I think you will see other countries having left the EU. Once one of the pillars collapses, it's just a matter of time before it tumbles.

    Why do they remind you of Honorius in 410? Are the Vandals invading Rome again? Is Rome refusing to send money to Britain again?

    Perhaps a better comparison from 410 would be Constantine III and Theresa May. I look forward to her execution next year.
    Rome was already in decline, the main thrust of the argument is moments change history. Nothing I have seen from the EU says to me they are clever enough to breath new life into the project. Juncker has already given his vision for the EU and instead of being the concept of a common market  but what it has always been which is ever closer union and bureaucratic control over nation states, it's near on impossible to keep it together after Brexit.


  • #3444
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    murphaph wrote: »
    Nothing new in the speech at all. Just asked for an extension to continue dithering.

    Balderdash and bluster , as Boris would say


  • #3445
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Rome was already in decline, the main thrust of the argument is moments change history. Nothing I have seen from the EU says to me they are clever enough to breath new life into the project. Juncker has already given his vision for the EU and instead of being the concept of a common market  but what it has always been which is ever closer union and bureaucratic control over nation states, it's near on impossible to keep it together after Brexit.

    It will definitely be difficult, especially with the recent return of nationalistic and far right elements. However, the alternative is the disintegration of what has been a very positive institution for the large majority of members and the prospect dozens of disparate and competing nations vying to make themselves relevant across the continent. That hasn't worked out too well in the past. Also, with the rise of China and other powers, there is an obvious need for a large European bloc that carries weight globally. Ní neart go cur le chéile.


  • #3446
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    Hmm. No mention of NATO. Despite a section on security co-operation.

    A new "NATO-light" organisation within five years or less: Britain, US, possibly Norway and Turkey with a tentative arms-length alliance with Russia. And the rest of Europe in a new alliance which we might call a "Euro army" for convenience.

    Which side will Ireland join? Or will it try to stay neutral again?

    And from whom will the bigger threat come?

    Surely that would alienate Poland? I can't see them choosing a relatively weak euro army over NATO.


  • #3447
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    I used to be a Eurosceptic who wanted the European Union to reform. I've now stopped believing that was ever possible and started to see that if the only reasons people can offer for staying in are fearmongering then it's just better to go.

    You only have to look back over the last 40 years to see how capable of change the EU is. That fact that it is not going in the direction you want is your problem, not the EUs.


  • #3448
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    You only have to look back over the last 40 years to see how capable of change the EU is. That fact that it is not going in the direction you want is your problem, not the EUs.

    As May confirmed today, Britain never really wanted to be part of the EU anyway. Best to cast them adrift and get on with the business of building a powerful bloc of nations.


  • #3449
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,954 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    As May confirmed today, Britain never really wanted to be part of the EU anyway. Best to cast them adrift and get on with the business of building a powerful bloc of nations.

    When the dust of Brexit sett!es it will be really interesting to see how the EU evolves.
    I never understood the half hearted UK involvement nor why they were let away with it.


  • #3450
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    When the dust of Brexit sett!es it will be really interesting to see how the EU evolves.
    I never understood the half hearted UK involvement nor why they were let away with it.

    That they did shows what Brexiters didnt want to see - it was indeed democratic !


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  • #3451
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Oh look, the UK tried to change the discussion to trade again. Hear my surprise.


This discussion has been closed.
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