The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

mickmackey1 · 20-09-2017 10:02PM

Still Kerry for me, several of the greatest footballers of all time in their respective positions. Whereas the current Dubs are more of a collective machine than top-rank individuals, for which Gavin must take a lot of credit.

blanch152 · 20-09-2017 10:04PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Actually when you compare both teams the personel, theres not much of a difference
1 Paddy Cullen A terrific goalie . Along with Martin Furlong Billy Morgan and Charlie Nelligan best of his generation
2 Driscoll excellent old fashioned corner back
3 Sean Doherty a beast of a full back. Made Mick Lyons look like a choir boy. (For twenty years the best full back was nearly always in leinster. Eg Jack Quinn 66 -70 Meath, Paddy " Iron man from Rhodes" Offaly 70- 73, Sean Doherty Dublin and John O Kefffe kerry 1974-1982 and Mick Lyons 1983- 1991 Best full backs in Ireland between 1960- 1990.)

4 Tommy Drumm was a lovely wing back. Top class

5 Kevin Moran was a swashbuckling centre back..if he stayed in the GAA could have become the best centre back in Ireland

6 Brogan Snr Had great engine

7 Brian Mullins Simply put one of the greatest Dublin players ever. One of the greatest midfielders ever.

8 Tony Hanahoe. A brillant centre forward. In my view much superior to Kilkenny . Kilkenny is proper warrior but he does to much passing back and forth for my liking. He doesn't have the vision of a Giles Blaney or B McGuigan. Proper play making centre forwards.

9 I cannot believe no one has mentioned the blue panther. The Diarmaid Connolly of the 70s team. One of the most talented Dublin footballers ever. The brillant very skilful Anton O Tooled

10 Jimmy Keaveney is simply one of the greatst Dublin forwards ever. In my opinion the top 4 Dublin forwards are 1 Kevin Heffernan 2 Jimmy Keaveney 3 Bernard Brogan 4 Barney Rock

Also that Dublin team defeated the greatest team ever twice. The 8 time All Ireland winning team kerry team.

They also had a much tougher opposition in leinster then the current team. In the years of 74 76 77 they faced battles with a very good Meath team who at the time where in top 5 in the country. Meath and Kerry are the only teams to defeat that great Dublin in a national final at the time. Meath beat Dublin very comfortably in the 75 league final. Meath had players like Ken Rennicks ( the greatest Meath players never to win Sam) legendary Jack Quinn and Mattie Kerrigan and young Colm.O Rourke Joe Cassells Mick Lyons and Gerry McEntee. Meath could have beaten Dublin in 74 leinster final and should have beaten them in 76 final and how they didn't win in 77 when they dominated the second half and kicked the game away it is mystery. And remeber that was the year Dublin won the double and defeated Kerry and Armagh by big margins.

After 77 that Meath team fell away. And Dublin had to face a brillant Offaly team. Offaly gave a good account in 78 final v Dublin. And should have won 79 only for Brian Mullins driving Dublin to victory. But in 1980 Offaly ended that Dublin team. And went onto to win 3 leinsters and 1 All Ireland

So Dublin had to face tougher leinster opposition then the current team. Meath won national league title and went toe to toe with Dublin in 3 leinster finals. The current Meath team is a divsion 2 team and probaly Meath worst in 35 years. The last two times they have beaten by 10 and 16 points by the current team. The Meath team 70s only were beaten by a 1 point or 2.

So Dublin 70s had to face a top 5 national league winning team and an All Ireland winning team in leinster. The current team have to face no national league winners no All Ireland winner no divsion 1 teams. . All Dublin havw to face currently is divsion 2 but mostly divsion 3 and 4 teams through our this decade. Simply the worst leinster championship in 130 years of gaelic football.

Sean Doherty (now that O'Carroll is gone) and Brian Mullins are the only players from the team of the 70s who would walk into the Dublin team of today. Cluxton is miles ahead of Cullen (suggesting otherwise makes your judgement very questionable). Moran or Drumm would have a chance of replacing Small, but with McCarthy freed to play at half-back by Mullins partnering Fenton means they would have to fight for one seat on the bench. Keaveney would replace O'Gara and make as many appearances i.e. occasional ones. Up front Hanahoe at centre-forward if you play O'Callaghan in the full-forward line.

I didn't consider the likes of Sherlock, the Brogans or Whelan, just the 74-77 players versus the team of 2017.

Cluxton
Cooper
Doherty
McMahon
McCarthy
O'Sullivan
McCaffrey
Mullins
Fenton
Kilkenny
Hanahoe
Connolly
Mannion
O'Callaghan
D Rock

Stoner · 20-09-2017 10:04PM

Sonny678 wrote:

Can anyone name a team that won an All Ireland since 1940 that has not had no opposition in their province.

Kerry in 2014.

Great thread Sonny the forum needed it at the moment, some great reading in it from many sources.

ThunbergsAreGo · 20-09-2017 10:09PM

Stoner wrote: »

Kerry in 2014.

Great thread Sonny the forum needed it at the moment, some great reading in it from many sources.

The fall off in a number of traditional counties such as Meath Cork Galway Kildare etc is probably worth a thread on its own! Less and less competition and importance o the provinces arguably since qualifiers were introduced

blanch152 · 20-09-2017 10:16PM

naughtb4 wrote: »

The fall off in a number of traditional counties such as Meath Cork Galway Kildare etc is probably worth a thread on its own! Less and less competition and importance o the provinces arguably since qualifiers were introduced

Yes, but if the qualifiers were there in say 1980 or 1981, Kerry would probably have had to beat both Offaly and Dublin. Would have made the four-in-a-row much much harder.

The_Kew_Tour · 20-09-2017 10:18PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

And no mention of Meath 87 88. A team of O Malley OConnell Lyons Cassells Dowd McEntee Hayes O Rourke Stafford and Flynn. They don't rate. The best full back of the 80s Lyons, one of the best corner backs of the modern era O Malley,the best full forward line of the last thirty years O Rourke Stafford Flynn or the only modern player on the team of the Millennium the best number 7 ever Martin O Connell . A double winning team are not as good as the current Mayo team . And Meath 87 88 are not as good as the Cork team 89 90 that in 5 games between Meath v Cork , Meath were defeated 1 time out of 5 games ( 4 All Ireland finals and national league semi final between 87-90). Cork 89 90 a better team then a team they couldnt beat. That's a strange viewpoint indeed. Meath should have won no All Irelands they would been as good as Mayo. And Meath should have not won all their matchs with Cork but lost them all and then they would been a better team.
And Armagh and Donegal did not win a double two in a row. In most discussions a two in a row team is better then 1 in a row team in senior, junior ,club, ladies football, whatever code of level, that would be the general rule.

That Cork team were robbed by a ref in 1988

Sonny678 · 20-09-2017 11:19PM

Again I write a long message why Meath where great and someone nitpick one tiny flaw in my argument.
Well my answer to the above is did the ref rob Cork in 87 final no
Did the ref rob Cork in 88 replay final no
Did the ref rob Cork in 89 league semi final no
The best way to put it.
Meath ( 87 88 ) played Cork 5 times between 1987 and 1990 and Meath were defeated 1 time out of 5 attempts. Cork defeated Meath once in 5 big matchs (4 All Ireland finals) in the late 80s .

Surely in any sport from rugby to American football to soccer to hockey any team that loses once in 5 big games to one particular opponent has to be the better team

That Meath team when they had Lyons Harnan McEntee O Malley O Connell O Rourke Stafford on the field they were unbeatable. If you look at Meath loses between 87 to 91 injury to key players were fatal. Meath winning a five in a row between 87 and 91 is not incredible. If injuries to key players did not help.
But if Meath had as easy provience opposition as Dublin have now and hadn't to face greatst Cork team ever had to face the championship Dublin have currently to face a five in a row would not be an impossible feat. The backdoor would have helped also.

Anyway Meath three loses
89 leinster final v Dubs Lyons was injured and did not play in the leinster final. Vinny Murphy scored a goal which he never did v Lyons. Vinny marked by Lyons was invisible. McNally got a goal at the end catching the ball in the square to score the winning goal. If Lyons was there neither of these goals would have happened. No one scored a goal in Lyons Den on Micks watch from 83 to 91. Til Leo Turley ended Micks career in 92 for Laois in Navan.
( OK liam McHale did in 88 score a goal v Lyons in thr Lyons den but the game was over by then)

1990 final v Cork Harnan was injured for the final. Kevin Foley centre back. A wing back Foley was a centre back. Shay Fahy or was it Danny Culloty had the game of his life from midfield scoring 4 points. All around the half back line. Would he have scored all those points if Harnan was Marshalling the half back line. When liam Harnan was centre back not one midfielder ever scores more then 2 points from the half back line.

3 1991 final v Down O Malley injured. And so much damage was done down the left wing. Remeber the down goal where McCarten cuts in from the wing on the left hand side of the defence to set down up for a goal. When O Malley was corner back no corner forward got so easy inside the Meath defence.

Listen Dublin Cork and Down won. Deservedly so..better teams on the day. But the loss of those three men were massive. And when Meath had those 7 or 8 great players on the field they were unbeatable.

But unlike this current Dublin team that great Meath team had no bench. Well that is wrong it had one good sub. The wonderful Mattie McHale. Meath is a county that has had great teams but panels are weak. When main players missing the team loses. Look at 97 when Fay and O Connell and Geraghty were missing for 97 leinster final. The panel that Dublin have now is unbelievable. Meath never had a strong panel.

Tommy Max · 20-09-2017 11:33PM

I was disappointed with them in the final. there was a lot of cynical play. especially the last few minutes to kill the game. to be fair if a Tyrone or Donegal for that matter did it there would be a big backlash from the pundits and media.

the incident with the eye gouge was pretty nasty. it's very dangerous. need to stop this immediately in the game.

I am sure the referee did his very best but there is still big issues with gas officials getting decisions wrong or not making the big calls. as it turned out he had a big say in where the cup went.

blanch152 · 20-09-2017 11:41PM

Tommy Max wrote: »

I was disappointed with them in the final. there was a lot of cynical play. especially the last few minutes to kill the game. to be fair if a Tyrone or Donegal for that matter did it there would be a big backlash from the pundits and media.

the incident with the eye gouge was pretty nasty. it's very dangerous. need to stop this immediately in the game.

I am sure the referee did his very best but there is still big issues with gas officials getting decisions wrong or not making the big calls. as it turned out he had a big say in where the cup went.

Except there wasn't an eye-gouge, and this is the wrong thread.

Oh, and the cynical play started long before the last few minutes and the Dubs weren't the worst or the instigators.

Tommy Max · 20-09-2017 11:49PM

sorry blanch but nobody deny that a straight red card had to be issued to o gara. no place in the game for that.

Doltanian · 21-09-2017 12:07AM

This Dublin team will be forever tainted by Joe McQuillan.

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 12:19AM

I wrote a long message for a hour describing every final from 1970 to 2017 to explain a point. I stuck in the charger and lost the whole fecking message. Nooooooooo.
My hand is falling off me. So I will try to do a summary of what I was going to say. I'm sure I have annoyed allot with my ranting and raving . And if I have put down anyone team or player apologies all around .

Anyway my messed up message was the very strange and bizzare Dublin record in All Ireland finals. Everyone says Mayo don't win finals. But Dublin also have a final problem. Dublin don't play well in finals. The last time Dublin delivered a great All Ireland final performance was in 76 and 77.

If you look at every final since 1960 these are the finals were the winning teams did not play really well eg leaving out Dublin finals

1980 kerry v Roscommon. Kerry find it hard to deal with resilent Rossies
1989 Cork v Mayo. Cork are very jittery v gutsy Mayo
1993 Davis sending off seemed to have negative impact on Cork. Derry with 15 men beat Corks 14
1996 A nervous young Meath team find it difficult to shake off a gutsy Mayo team
2010 Down start so well. Cork only really start playing in the final 20 mins

The above finals are only finals since 1960 leaving out Dublin finals where the winners underperformed. It's unusual for winners to underperform in a final. Remeber Down blowing kerry away in 1960. Our Cork playing champagne football in 1973. Our Donegals tour de force display v Dublin in 92. Our Galways magic second half v kildare in 98. Our the game of the decade Tyrone v Kerry 05 when the Tyrone football machine dismantled kerry.

Dublin don't play well in finals. Much worse record then any other top county.

All Dublin finals since 77.
1 78 hammered by Kerry
2 79 another bad defeat to Kerry
3 83 was not a football match . It was 15 Conor Mcgregors in the first live cage fight ever
4 84 and 85 Comfortable wins by Kerry v Dublin
5 92 Dublin are dreadful v Donegal
6 94 Dublin again are dreadful v Down
7 95 Dublin fall over the line v Tyrone
8 11 Kerry are better team for most of the game. Dublin only take control in the final mins
9 13 A poor final both Dublin and Mayo are poor only for brilliance of Brogan Dublin r champions
10 15 probaly Dublins best performance since 1977. But Kerry were very poor. Dublin played in patches. But couldn't really get started. And kerry still could have drawn the match with Donaghy last minute chance. But this 3 point win is Dublin best performance in a final in the last 12 Dublin All Ireland final appearances since 1977.
11 16 Mayo could have won both games. Dublin underperform
12 17 Mayo should have won. Dublin underperform

The characteristics of Dublin wins are jittery performances with players under performing. And hanging onto the ball in injury time to hold onto to a slender 1 point lead. This is what happened in Dublins last 6 wins. Before those 6 wins Dublin had 4 dreadful All Ireland finals v Donegal 92 Down 94 and Kerry twice in the mid 80s.

Dublins last 6 All Irelands
1995 Dublin win by 1 point v Tyrone
2011 Dublin win by 1 point v Kerry
2013 Dublin win by 1 point v Mayo
2015 Dublin win by 3 points v Kerry
2016 Dublin win by 1 point v Mayo
2017 Dublin win by 1 point v Mayo

Maybe Dublin have had such great opposition and that is the theory pedalled by the Dublin media. But all the performances are so sub standard . There is no one great Dublin performance in an All Ireland final since 1977 . In 12 finals Dublin have underperformed. If people say Mayo cannot win finals. Would it be outrageous to say Dublin don't play well in finals

And how can the greatest team never deliver a strong All Ireland final performance . Surely that is another question mark. Great teams deliver great performance or even strong displays in finals. For me this is another question that media have failed to adrdess
I think of great final performance when Offaly beat Kerry by 8 points to do the double in 72.
Our Offaly beating Kerry in 82 scoring the greatst goal ever in the greatest final ever
Our Kerry beating Dublin out the gate in 78.
Our Kerrys blowing Mayo away in the first ten minutes in two finals in 04 and 06. It's really bizzare that the Dubs don't turn it on in finals. It's a fact. The stats and results back up this viewpoint.

davedanon · 21-09-2017 01:35AM

A small point, but - 'Dublin media' my hole

You know what the 'dublin media' is full of? Yes, that's right. F*cking culchies. So stop talking sh*te.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 10:40AM

RoscommonTom wrote: »

the Kerry four in a row is the best team of all time. Dublin gets millions of euros from the Gaa and gets to play all their games in crocker, imagine if Kerry or mayo had them sorts of advantages playing at home and loads of money, I think theyd be winning as much as the dubs

they might blow all their money on buses and all night nude pool parties...

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 10:42AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Except there wasn't an eye-gouge, and this is the wrong thread.

Oh, and the cynical play started long before the last few minutes and the Dubs weren't the worst or the instigators.

Imagine if a Dublin player had done what Keegan did? What's next, rocks, darts, ...?

The_Honeybadger · 21-09-2017 10:53AM

I don't think you can ever conclusively state that one team was better than another equally successful team of another era. There have been some magical teams over the years, most of whom I am too young to remember.

This recent media effort to erase anything that happened pre 2011 and crown the Dubs as the best ever is daft. This has even extended to talking up Mayo as the best team to ever emerge from Connacht to lend credibility to the argument. Mayo are top class from 1-7 but how many of their midfield and forward players would make other great teams? Even some ex Kerry players are at it, brownnosing the Dubs, probably in fear of losing their lucrative media gigs once the likes of Brogan et al start to retire from playing.

I'm not saying for a second that Dublin don't deserve high praise, they are a phenomenal outfit with a top class manager, but it's a bit early to be calling them the best team ever. There is no doubt in my mind that they have benefited considerably from circumstances since 2013 in particular where there is a very weak field of teams in contention.

This is an interesting thread no doubt but it's very subjective and down to personal opinion at the end of the day.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 11:00AM

I think if you read back that every Dub contributor has acknowledged that Kerry 1975 - 1986 still remain the outstanding team in football history.

Now, that might change as other dog has not finished running yet :-)

Shurimgreat · 21-09-2017 11:00AM

Bonniedog wrote: »

Imagine if a Dublin player had done what Keegan did? What's next, rocks, darts, ...?

Imagine if a Mayo player did what Costello did? He'd be crucified in the media and we'd never hear the end of Dublin whinging.

Both episodes cancel each other out in my book and its time for people to move on. Both players deserve the same punishment whatever that is. At best both players were immature. And I hope both are embarrassed by their actions.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 11:05AM

I don't think either should be punished in retrospect.

However, what Keegan did breached a new low and surprised it has not been given more attention.

At best he be given benefit of doubt that he did it off the cuff. Would not like to think that this is what some people consider as part of game plan.

Shurimgreat · 21-09-2017 11:09AM

The Kerry team of the 70s/80s are a long way ahead of this Dublin team for numerous reasons.

Smallish population pick.
Number of AIs and All-Stars won by the majority of their players.
Played the game in the right spirit.
Were not noted for cynicism.
Opposition was of a higher standard and faced a number of good teams such as Dublin, Roscommon, Offaly, Cork, Tyrone and Meath among several others.
Based around a core group of players rather than having the huge pick of Dublin who can continually refresh their squad.
Didn't have home advantage in big games.
Didn't have much travelling support from Kerry for many of their big games.
Had to travel to Dublin for big games.
Many of their squad were based in Dublin and trained in Dublin, hence lack of collective training involving the full squad.

When you think of it, their achievements were amazing.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 11:13AM

I assume you meant Kerry!

So what advantages did Kerry have as compared to, oh, maybe a county with similar demographics and so on ...

Shurimgreat · 21-09-2017 11:20AM

Bonniedog wrote: »

I assume you meant Kerry!

So what advantages did Kerry have as compared to, oh, maybe a county with similar demographics and so on ...

Oh yep sorry about that, I meant Kerry.

All I'm hearing for the last week is Dublin this, Dublin that, so its on the brain.

Shurimgreat · 21-09-2017 11:22AM

Its time to start taking some of the big games out of Croke Park.
People say its no advantage to Dublin, but I'm not sure.

Its time at least to force Dublin out of its comfort zone.

League Finals in Thurles or Cork.

Quarter finals involving Dublin in Cork or Thurles.

Maybe even a case for AI semi finals in Cork. And if people say yeh but what about accommodating the huge demand, I say so what.

Dublin's advantages are gone beyond a joke at this stage. Its time some effort at least was made to balance the playing field.

Only then can we talk about great teams, rather than a team who has everything loaded in its favour.

Rant over.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 11:23AM

As it stands, Dwyer's team(s) are best ever. no question.

That might change.

Shurimgreat · 21-09-2017 11:25AM

Bonniedog wrote: »

I don't think either should be punished in retrospect.

However, what Keegan did breached a new low and surprised it has not been given more attention.

At best he be given benefit of doubt that he did it off the cuff. Would not like to think that this is what some people consider as part of game plan.

Keegan's actions do appear off the cuff. Costello's appear to be part of an orchestrated Dublin game plan. I will let you decide which is more sinister and not in keeping with the spirt of the game. If Costello was ordered from the sideline to interfere with Clarkes tees and I suspect he was, its a disgusting tactic.

Tommy Max · 21-09-2017 11:26AM

Lads there is no point getting defensive about it.

Right or wrong? A free was given to Kilkenny on stroke of half time after he ran into his own player and actually over carried. Mayo were on a break away but Dublin given free which Rock scored.

Right or wrong? O' Gara slammed stuck Boyle in the face? The pictures are pretty conclusive of the intent. Clear red card offense.

Right or wrong? Lee Keegan was dragged down for a penalty that cameras showed was well inside the square.

We can go on and discuss the display of Dublin in the final 5 minutes where the forwards were told to maul the Mayo players and make no intention to play football. Costello came on and made no attempt to play. He was clearly told to go in and hold down the corner back who was cleaning up.

Its slightly ironic that Costello's only contribution this year was to get onto the field and be sneaky and underhand. I do think Jim Gavin had his part in this too.

Now I am not a Mayo man. I have played the game both at club and county level and felt Dublin for all the talk and hype of them being great looked totally desperate last Sunday and clearly abused the fact that a weak ref was in place. Seeing Brogan calling up Cluxton to kick a line ball near the end and Kilkenny holding onto Lee keegan for dear life on the ground and leaving the field happy to have taking the black card, told the story.

You look at a bloke like Andy Moran for example. Double and triple marked and still showing brilliance. Playing the game hard but always fair. For me someone like that is far more deserving of an all Ireland medal than lads like Costello, O' Gara, Cooper, who just go out to be underhand. If that is success and sportsmanship doesn't matter anymore then it's a game I want nothing more to do with.

Fair play and good sportsmanship is obviously not something this Dublin team and management believe in.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 11:28AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Keegan's actions do appear off the cuff. Costello's appear to be part of an orchestrated Dublin game plan. I will let you decide which is more sinister and not in keeping with the spirt of the game. If Costello was ordered from the sideline to interfere with Clarkes tees and I suspect he was, its a disgusting tactic.

So throwing a metal object at a freetaker is just a bit of crack then?

Much of Dublin behaviour in last two minutes - actually Mayo Joe extended to 5

- was in reaction to what Keegan did,

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 11:33AM

Tommy Max wrote: »

Lads there is no point getting defensive about it.

Right or wrong? A free was given to Kilkenny on stroke of half time after he ran into his own player and actually over carried. Mayo were on a break away but Dublin given free which Rock scored.

Right or wrong? O' Gara slammed stuck Boyle in the face? The pictures are pretty conclusive of the intent. Clear red card offense.

Right or wrong? Lee Keegan was dragged down for a penalty that cameras showed was well inside the square.

We can go on and discuss the display of Dublin in the final 5 minutes where the forwards were told to maul the Mayo players and make no intention to play football. Costello came on and made no attempt to play. He was clearly told to go in and hold down the corner back who was cleaning up.

Its slightly ironic that Costello's only contribution this year was to get onto the field and be sneaky and underhand. I do think Jim Gavin had his part in this too.

Now I am not a Mayo man. I have played the game both at club and county level and felt Dublin for all the talk and hype of them being great looked totally desperate last Sunday and clearly abused the fact that a weak ref was in place. Seeing Brogan calling up Cluxton to kick a line ball near the end and Kilkenny holding onto Lee keegan for dear life on the ground and leaving the field happy to have taking the black card, told the story.

You look at a bloke like Andy Moran for example. Double and triple marked and still showing brilliance. Playing the game hard but always fair. For me someone like that is far more deserving of an all Ireland medal than lads like Costello, O' Gara, Cooper, who just go out to be underhand. If that is success and sportsmanship doesn't matter anymore then it's a game I want nothing more to do with.

Fair play and good sportsmanship is obviously not something this Dublin team and management believe in.

We feel your pain.

DoctaDee · 21-09-2017 11:34AM

Just dropping into this thread a little later than most .

Firstly welcome back Sonny - I haven't had a chance to start at the start but judging by the posts, you've gone to a lot of time and effort to develop a back story and basis for debate.

Secondly - lads is there any chance we could park the discussion of incidents from Sunday, you have plenty of other threads that can accommodate them and personally it makes for turgid reading at this stage .. ta

Shurimgreat · 21-09-2017 11:45AM

Bonniedog wrote: »

So throwing a metal object at a freetaker is just a bit of crack then?

Much of Dublin behaviour in last two minutes - actually Mayo Joe extended to 5 - was in reaction to what Keegan did,

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm going to take DoctaDees advice and refrain from further discussion on this thread about it.
Mickyk makes a valid point about "greatest ever" being subjective.
Teams will be remembered and admired for how they play the game and the spirit in which they played the game.

Cheating has no part in any sport. If it had, then Lance Armstrong would still be hailed and admired at the "greatest ever cyclist".

The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

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