Brexit discussion thread II

Fratton Fred · 20-09-2017 05:02PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Taxation is not an EU competence, so NO the EU are not involved in taxation. That may change, but it will require a treaty change, and Ireland has a veto.

Luxembourg and the Netherlands, as well as Ireland have been accused of being tax havens, but other countries do sweetheart deals on corporation taxation. The USA are also party to tax fiddles, allowing off-shore profit hoarding - waiting for a repatriation amnesty.

The real problem are the corporations that are not tax resident ANYWHERE, and so pay no tax at all.

The EU are on the case though.

I'd go as far as to say taxation is an eu incompetence. it has been obvious for years what the likes of Apple, Google, Amazon and Starbucks have been up to, but despite setting up the code of conduct group for business taxation in 1998, it has managed to do absolutely zero to stop it.

And yes, Ireland has a veto, but would it really put itself out in the cold by using it?

demfad · 20-09-2017 05:04PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The eu can be influenced by big corporations, the TPD clearly shows this.

This is the third reply where you have been told I used the word 'withstand' not 'influence'. If you think that corporations hold the same sway within the Institutions of the EU as they do in the US (Citizens United) , UK with the likes of the GOP and Tories well that's your problem. I'm not going to waste my time arguing this point with you.

As for big data, how do you know what they're up to?

As big data was the decicive factor in the recent US elections and Brexit I have taken an interest in it as every citizen who can should IMO.

This year a change in EU protection law means Europeans are about to get a lot more control over their social media data.

America has gone the opposite way. The UK with big data anti democracy players like Cambridge Analytica backing the Tories and Brexit will go likewise assuming no ECJ juristiction.

The changes will be required under the EU's General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), which comes into force in May 2018. The regulation sets out a series of "harmonised" data protection principles, that will be implemented into local laws for the 28 member states. The focus of the GDPR is to give greater protections to individuals as well as tougher rules on those who handle data.

"One of the things we have high hopes for significant change under the GDPR is how transparency is really delivered to users, particularly by these internet companies, We know from our engagement with them that a lot of them are looking very proactively at how they are going to do the transparency under the GDPR."

Sam Russell · 20-09-2017 05:11PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'd go as far as to say taxation is an eu incompetence.

Your view could be valuable to you, but it does not change the facts of the matter.

Taxation is not an EU competence. It is within the competence of each member state. The current Apple tax case was taken under state aid rules and not taxation rules, and anyway is being appealed to the EUCJ as not being within the Commissions competence.

We await the judgement.

Fratton Fred · 20-09-2017 05:16PM

demfad wrote: »

This is the third reply where you have been told I used the word 'withstand' not 'influence'. If you think that corporations hold the same sway within the Institutions of the EU as they do in the US (Citizens United) , UK with the likes of the GOP and Tories well that's your problem. I'm not going to waste my time arguing this point with you.

sorry, but you are living in a fantasy world.

There are estimated to be over 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels, who spend over €1.5bn per year trying to influence the eu. https://transparency.eu/lobbyistsinbrussels/ If they had little sway, do you think they would dedicate so much time and effort to it?

Add in the 50% of ex commissioners who take up post eu jobs as eu lobbyists, then you really really have to question how much influence big corporations have on the eu. https://transparency.eu/revolving-door-pr/

And as for your obsession with Putin and his influence on the UK and US elections, have you ever wondered what his mate was talking to Guenther Oettinger about in his private plane? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38002207

Because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Fratton Fred · 20-09-2017 05:21PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Your view could be valuable to you, but it does not change the facts of the matter.

Taxation is not an EU competence. It is within the competence of each member state. The current Apple tax case was taken under state aid rules and not taxation rules, and anyway is being appealed to the EUCJ as not being within the Commissions competence.

We await the judgement.

yes, the bizarre case of a government appealing against the amount of tax a company has been ordered to pay to it.

its hard to make this stuff up really.

The very fundamentals of the eu helped to create the means for companies to avoid tax and for countries to use their internal tax laws to compete against other countries and give their companies unfair advantage, which is quite obviously against the spirit of the eu.

You have to ask why these issues have never been addressed.

murphaph · 20-09-2017 05:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You are presuming it will be European. The Russians, Chinese and Americans may disagree on this.

I'm not presuming anything. Ultimately we will forget about nation states but how do we realistically get there without first building regional superstates, like the US and EU?

flutered · 20-09-2017 05:47PM

Brexit: What happens if talks collapse and there's no deal? over on uk.yahoo news,
The Independent Jon Stone,The Independent, i cannot post the link for some reason
a hard hitting piece which is being ridiculed by the brexiteers

Fratton Fred · 20-09-2017 06:45PM

murphaph wrote: »

I'm not presuming anything. Ultimately we will forget about nation states but how do we realistically get there without first building regional superstates, like the US and EU?

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with you there, but the uk leaving the eu isn't a step back from this, unless you think the eu is the answer.

We're talking about something that won't happen in our kid's lifetime though, let alone ours.

Enzokk · 20-09-2017 07:01PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'd go as far as to say taxation is an eu incompetence. it has been obvious for years what the likes of Apple, Google, Amazon and Starbucks have been up to, but despite setting up the code of conduct group for business taxation in 1998, it has managed to do absolutely zero to stop it.

And yes, Ireland has a veto, but would it really put itself out in the cold by using it?

And the UK has been a bastion in charging these corporations their tax? Lest we forget the UK is part of the EU, so any shortcomings are to be borne by the UK as well. Leaving will not mean the UK will charge these corporations their tax all of a sudden. Or are the UK politicians not subject to lobbying from those that try to influence other nations politicians?

Water John · 20-09-2017 07:11PM

If talks collapse, UK leaves EU in Mar 2019, since they triggered Article 50, and all trade with them becomes subject to WTO rules.

Sam Russell · 20-09-2017 07:12PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yes, the bizarre case of a government appealing against the amount of tax a company has been ordered to pay to it.

its hard to make this stuff up really.

The very fundamentals of the eu helped to create the means for companies to avoid tax and for countries to use their internal tax laws to compete against other countries and give their companies unfair advantage, which is quite obviously against the spirit of the eu.

You have to ask why these issues have never been addressed.

The set up of the EU has been a gradual process. It started with Iron and Coal trading between warring neighbours, with the intention of making another war in Europe impossible. They went on to the EEC, with the Treaty of Rome, which added the agricultural policy to make Europe self sufficient in food, which worked.

We now have Schengen with free movement without barriers. And then the Euro, which is not quite right but getting there, as the financial crisis of 2008 proved a massive test.

They are moving closer on foreign policy, and are trying to strengthen defence. They added policies one by one, but have not got to tax harmonisation yet.

It is early days, but the UK leaving will speed things. I think the future is looking brighter for the EU, but not so certain for the UK.

Peter Flynt · 20-09-2017 07:15PM

Water John wrote: »

If talks collapse, UK leaves EU in Mar 2019, since they triggered Article 50, and all trade with them becomes subject to WTO rules.

If talks collapse and the UK has no deal then they will not leave in March 2019.
It would be economic suicide to do so.

I think this has been the plan all along from May.

Calina · 20-09-2017 07:16PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yes, the bizarre case of a government appealing against the amount of tax a company has been ordered to pay to it.

Taxation is a member state competence. So yes, you might think it's bizarre but it is a member state asserting its right to make taxation decisions.

The UK is in no position to point any fingers given the contribution some Crown dependencies and overseas territories make to tax evasion opportunity.

In the meantime, one of the key issues with Ireland is that it has a low baseline corporation tax. But it collects most of it. Its collection rate is broadly close to its nominal rate. This is not the case in France, for example, where a complex system of allowances and write offs mean that the net tax bill tends to be significantly lower than the equivalent would be in Ireland. France's effective rate is significantly lower than its nominal rate.

You might want to bear in mind that the issue with the Apple case - complex and all as it is - is about competition between states for FDI rather than about taxation per se. It will be interesting to see if in fact, the Commission will be found to have applied competition law correctly here because it is not that Apple enjoyed benefits vis a vis competitors but that Ireland enjoyed benefits vis a vis other member states.

Peter Flynt · 20-09-2017 07:20PM

Calina wrote: »

In the meantime, one of the key issues with Ireland is that it has a low baseline corporation tax. But it collects most of it. Its collection rate is broadly close to its nominal rate. This is not the case in France, for example, where a complex system of allowances and write offs mean that the net tax bill tends to be significantly lower than the equivalent would be in Ireland. France's effective rate is significantly lower than its nominal rate.

That's a complete myth spun by Official Ireland.

If France's effective tax rate were much lower than in Ireland then they would be mopping up the sort of business that LinkedIn set up yesterday.

Foreign companies are not in IRL for sentimental reasons as they like to pay more tax here. Get real.

Apple pay 2% tax in Ireland

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0521/451564-apple-tax-arrangements/

Calina · 20-09-2017 07:24PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

That's a complete myth spun by Official Ireland.

If France's effective tax rate were much lower than in Ireland then they would be mopping up the sort of business that LinkedIn set up yesterday.

Foreign companies are not in IRL for sentimental reasons as they like to pay more tax here. Get real.

Apple pay 2% tax in Ireland

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0521/451564-apple-tax-arrangements/

You might want to have a look at a slightly more indepth discussion on the matter via Ronan Lyons based on PWC research. Here's the link. I wouldn't use Apple as a general reflection of taxation in Ireland per se either.

Nate--IRL-- · 20-09-2017 07:25PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If talks collapse and the UK has no deal then they will not leave in March 2019.

The text of Article 50 begs to differ.

Nate

Peter Flynt · 20-09-2017 07:27PM

Calina wrote: »

You might want to have a look at a slightly more indepth discussion on the matter via Ronan Lyons based on PWC research. Here's the link. I wouldn't use Apple as a general reflection of taxation in Ireland per se either.

Ireland is a tax haven.....Get over it.

Peter Flynt · 20-09-2017 07:28PM

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

The text of Article 50 begs to differ.

Nate

If the UK decided to stay they would be facilitated by the rest of the EU.

It just makes everything simpler and avoids a lot of headaches.

demfad · 20-09-2017 07:52PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If talks collapse and the UK has no deal then they will not leave in March 2019.
It would be economic suicide to do so.

I think this has been the plan all along from May.

If the UK wants to stay in the EU they must ask the other 27 States. If talks collapse how will they achieve this?

Even though May has behaved as someone who is trying to sabotage Brexit, I fear she is really just bad. Setting up two new depts for it, triggering A50 too soon, fighting Gina Millar in both courts, calling an election. All huge blunders.

First Up · 20-09-2017 07:57PM

Peter Flynt wrote:

If the UK decided to stay they would be facilitated by the rest of the EU.

Care to describe what political process would need to take place for the UK to "decide to stay"?

ancapailldorcha · 20-09-2017 08:02PM

First Up wrote: »

Care to describe what political process would need to take place for the UK to "decide to stay"?

Davis or any replacement he might have would have to bring it up in the negotiations though the only justification I could see for this action from him or his potential successor would be a recession and/or businesses leaving in significant numbers.

Samaris · 20-09-2017 08:03PM

I don't see anyone actively voting against it, although I could well see countries firmly insisting that Britain doesn't get all its sweetheart deals back. It joins at the same level of everyone else or no dice. Ireland might cave on that, we have most to lose after Britain itself, but I don't see all 26 spontaneously agreeing to let Britain back in at exactly the same privileged place it had before after all this.

listermint · 20-09-2017 08:04PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

That's a complete myth spun by Official Ireland.

If France's effective tax rate were much lower than in Ireland then they would be mopping up the sort of business that LinkedIn set up yesterday.

Foreign companies are not in IRL for sentimental reasons as they like to pay more tax here. Get real.

Apple pay 2% tax in Ireland

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0521/451564-apple-tax-arrangements/

Sentimental reasons?

No speaking English.

demfad · 20-09-2017 08:35PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Davis or any replacement he might have would have to bring it up in the negotiations though the only justification I could see for this action from him or his potential successor would be a recession and/or businesses leaving in significant numbers.

I could see them asking for an extension or suspension of A50. In fact I think this and a messy no-deal hard Brexit are the two most likely scenarios.

There wont be a bespoke transition deal after the leaks about May's plans for immigrants. There can't really be a true transition deal as the UK Gov is still divided 3 ways on where it is going.

The truth is that A50 as a tool is not fit for purpose, never was meant to be used. They made a mess of using it but they could focus on it and ask for leniency.

If the Tory party is truly under the control of the loony hard Brexiter MPs and the corrupt crew associated with the Legatum Institute then they will go off the cliff. Some of them will make a pretty penny out of it.

oscarBravo · 20-09-2017 08:41PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Apple pay 2% tax in Ireland

Can you provide a link to the relevant legislation that allows Apple to pay 2% tax in Ireland?

Failing that, can you provide evidence that the Revenue Commissioners are complicit in a flagrant breach of Irish tax law by allowing Apple to illegally evade tax?

Peter Flynt · 20-09-2017 09:04PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can you provide a link to the relevant legislation that allows Apple to pay 2% tax in Ireland?

Failing that, can you provide evidence that the Revenue Commissioners are complicit in a flagrant breach of Irish tax law by allowing Apple to illegally evade tax?

I provided you with a link showing Apple's head of tax stating, under oath and questioning from US Senate, that they pay 2% in Ireland.

A deal was struck with Apple in 1991 to help them avoid tax.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-apple-managed-to-get-its-tax-deal-in-ireland-in-1991-2016-8

Peter Flynt · 20-09-2017 09:09PM

First Up wrote: »

Care to describe what political process would need to take place for the UK to "decide to stay"?

I don't believe there is one at present but, to quote Merkel's favourite English phrase, ....."Where there's a will there's a way"

Macron made it clear to the Brits that Article fifty can be revoked.

In the end will they leave?
Who knows?

I think they have to to appease Tory headbangers.
So if they don't have a deal a transitionary arrangement would be essential.

oscarBravo · 20-09-2017 09:24PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I provided you with a link showing Apple's head of tax stating, under oath and questioning from US Senate, that they pay 2% in Ireland.

That's nice, but it's not what I asked you for. I asked for the legal basis for a 2% tax on corporate profits.

A deal was struck with Apple in 1991 to help them avoid tax.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-apple-managed-to-get-its-tax-deal-in-ireland-in-1991-2016-8

The Irish government agreed a deal with Apple in 1991 to only tax a certain bracket of its earnings...

Either that agreement is legal, in which case there's legislation allowing it; or it's illegal, in which case Revenue are complicit in tax evasion.

Which is it?

Peter Flynt · 20-09-2017 09:34PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's nice, but it's not what I asked you for. I asked for the legal basis for a 2% tax on corporate profits.

I gave you a credible source.

You want a different source.

Why don't you go looking up legislation yourself?
Or contact the relevant Minister if you're that interested?

Because I'm not doing it for you.

ambro25 · 20-09-2017 09:55PM

flutered wrote: »

Brexit: What happens if talks collapse and there's no deal? over on uk.yahoo news,
The Independent Jon Stone,The Independent, i cannot post the link for some reason
a hard hitting piece which is being ridiculed by the brexiteers

link to article

All already very familiar to many posters on here (dissenters notwithstanding). The consequences of 'no deal' by 01 April 2019 have long been entirely predictable, as a simple and automatic operation of Treaty clauses. In that context, that is why the talks have about 12 months to go, not 18: there won't be too much of 6 months to get 'the deal' (if) ratified by all the national Parliaments and other assemblies in time by end March 2019. Because if even only one of them hasn't ratified by midnight when the two years are up...that is an 'exit with no deal' situation.

Brexit discussion thread II

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