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Brexit discussion thread II

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Comments

  • #3062
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Good evening!

    I said my last post would be the last post for today. I need to clarify this however.

    Ireland isn't a member of the Schengen zone so it is entitled to have control over non-EU immigration on its own terms. Border checks occur on the external border of the Schengen zone. Ireland isn't a member.

    I don't think you understand what Schengen does. You can get a visa to the Schengen zone; this does not mean immigration, it means short term visit/tourism. Work permits are still generally the business of the country of residence.

    You can look on it as a larger scale version of the CTA if you like. In general, if you are not an EU citizen, and you want to work in Germany, you have to get a work permit for Germany. Not the Schengen zone. A Schengen visa is a travel/holiday/tourism permit, not an immigration/work/residence permit. There is not a Schengen visa that allows immigration in the sense of living somewhere permanently or to work. It is a visitor visa. I hope this is clear. It is not a residence permit or a work permit.


  • #3063
    Rjd2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,272 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Lemming wrote: »
    This isn't so much BoJo making a power play for a leadership heave, and more a warning shot across the bow for May a few days before she goes to Florence. BoJo is clearly feeling the heat and knows that he's going to take the blame should the UK's stance soften.


    .


    Maybe, but reading the likes of the specator etc, its pretty obvious that the likes of Davis, Johnson, Pritti and a few others are building alliances and are scheming and undermining each other in the background. Some of the stuff between Johnson and Davis is toxic. I think this is him putting out the feelers at least for a Tory leadership run at least. I don't think he really cares what sort of Brexit the UK get whatsoever, as long as he doesn't get to much flack happy days.:eek:


    briany wrote: »
    Just looking at Julia Hartley-Brewer giving some 'Democracy' chat to Will Self on Question Time, there.

    "If you believe in democracy, you accept the outcome of democratic votes.", she said.

    .

    Both awful people who play up to the stereotypes of both of there sides in the wrong way, Julia way to reactionary and Self an incredibly arrogant patronising so and so, basically a tesco version of Bob Geldolf.

    Although I did like him on shooting stars back in the day.:P


  • #3064
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    View wrote: »
    A majority voted in favour of a proposal in an advisory referendum. Parliament didn't implement the proposal that the majority voted in favour of thus ignoring the advice of the electorate. Therefore it is clearly bogus to argue that Parliament can't ignore the wishes of a majority in an advisory referendum when it so chooses.

    The crteria was clearly defined prior to the referendum. That criteria was not met, so the legislation passed prior to the referendum was not enacted.

    It's really quite simple.


  • #3065
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,860 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Martin Wolf, Chief Economics commentator, Financial Times says; 'Brexit talks are going nowhere ATM'.


  • #3066
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Water John wrote: »
    Martin Wolf, Chief Economics commentator, Financial Times says; 'Brexit talks are going nowhere ATM'.

    At this stage Britain should just default on WTO rules and leave. It might give some certainty. No doubt it would be painful for Ireland, but what do they care?


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  • #3067
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,271 ✭✭✭Good loser


    briany wrote: »
    Just looking at Julia Hartley-Brewer giving some 'Democracy' chat to Will Self on Question Time, there.

    "If you believe in democracy, you accept the outcome of democratic votes.", she said.

    Pretty nonsensical. Why? Because if you take a general election as another example of democracy, especially where one side wins narrowly, and then that government is found to be suspect, if a scandal breaks out about, a motion can be made to dissolve that government and elect a new one. There's no-one saying, "We've been elected, so we're here for [term limit], and that's that." Using 'democracy' as a way to quash any question of another vote seems to undermine the whole idea.

    Probably why it's wise to have a referendum requiring a 2/3rds majority, because you avoid the scenario of potentially pitting one half of the public against the other, which is exactly what the Brexit vote has appeared to do. You instead get change when there is strong and overwhelming public opinion, not the scenario where a million and a half people change their minds and suddenly the outcome is different. But if the British want to base an apparently irreversible decision on such a slim majority, then let them at it, but I find it to be madness.

    Did you hear Self quote the guy that said to Cameron

    'Not even my golf club changes its rules on the basis of a simple majority'

    Brewer fairly bristled at that.


  • #3068
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    There is some evidence that Brexit is leading to increased wages as supply of labour dries up. Polish workers wages at least.

    https://www.ft.com/content/0e0a77f2-96df-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0

    Gist of the article is Barfoots of Botley is running a 15% headcount shortage, and will have to reduce output of crops as it cant get the necessary staff to harvest them. The anti-foreigner mood music of Brexit and the fall in the value of sterling are dissuading Eastern European workers on whom the company relies. One of the managers is quoted as saying "This is the first time I've had to face this [in 30 years]. They're just not coming."

    Barfoots have responded by raising wages and improving the accommodation with perks such as free wifi to try attract/retain Eastern European workers. Previously workers had to go into the local town to get internet access.

    No evidence as yet that low skilled British workers are making up the difference.


  • #3069
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,860 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    If May had the gumption and fired Boris, at least he'd have some job to do. The potatoes need picking.


  • #3070
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Water John wrote: »
    If May had the gumption and fired Boris, at least he'd have some job to do. The potatoes need picking.


    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Her problem is that she shouldn't have appointed him in the first place. Now that he is there she cannot get rid of him as he will be able to shout very loudly from the backbenches if he is fired. She should have let him slip into obscurity after he decided not to run in the leadership election. She kept him in the spotlight.


  • #3071
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Her problem is that she shouldn't have appointed him in the first place. Now that he is there she cannot get rid of him as he will be able to shout very loudly from the backbenches if he is fired. She should have let him slip into obscurity after he decided not to run in the leadership election. She kept him in the spotlight.

    In fairness, appointing him was the right move from a purely Tory infighting perspective. The old phrase 'Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" comes to mind. May gave him the opportunity to speak. He has discredited himself over the past 12 months or so in his public role, with public fumbles and failures. If he had been left on the backbenches to snipe, and scheme and plot he might look positively competent in comparison. Then he could be dangerous.

    As it is, the UK doesn't seem blessed with any great political figures in this generation in any party. I cant think of any impressive UK politician that is currently active.


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  • #3072
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,860 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Well it looks by The Times that Boris has misfired again and damaged himself with both sides.


  • #3073
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Water John wrote: »
    Well it looks by The Times that Boris has misfired again and damaged himself with both sides.

    As the saying goes, if Boris is the answer then you're asking the wrong question.


  • #3074
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,235 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Sand wrote: »
    I cant think of any impressive UK politician that is currently active.

    I'd make a case for Nick Clegg though that'd be before the election. I'm reading David Laws' chronicle of the coalition government at the moment. Clegg warned Cameron against trying to get a deal from the EU before calling a referendum to placate his backbenchers. He then went on to correctly predict what would predict if the public voted Leave. He also speaks multiple European languages and has experience in trade law.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #3075
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Good evening!

    I said my last post would be the last post for today. I need to clarify this however.

    Ireland isn't a member of the Schengen zone so it is entitled to have control over non-EU immigration on its own terms. Border checks occur on the external border of the Schengen zone. Ireland isn't a member.
    So what happened to "Controlling the United Kingdom's border is a matter for the UK Government, not a matter for the European Union post-Brexit"? The UK is not in Schengen either nor has it ever been.

    To be honest, your position is looking considerably less than honest right now.
    The EU won't have a say in respect to who enters the United Kingdom and on what terms they enter.
    In which case they won't in the UK with or without Brexit by your assessment, as the UK is not a member of Schengen. Meaning by your estimation, borders have nothing to do with Brexit... so why were you claiming they would be different post Brexit?


  • #3076
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,880 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    At this stage Britain should just default on WTO rules and leave.

    But they can't "default" to WTO terms, that is part of their problem! Without support from the EU they will have problems getting their full membership approved, trade schedules etc.. that is probably the main reason they keep turning up in Brussels!


  • #3077
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,880 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Ireland isn't a member of the Schengen zone so it is entitled to have control over non-EU immigration on its own terms. Border checks occur on the external border of the Schengen zone. Ireland isn't a member.

    You clearly have not got a clue about how Schengen works. For example checks can and do occur throughout area not just on the borders. And unlike the UK, you are automatically assumed to be there illegally unless you can clearly identify yourself and justify your presence in the area. And that means you can show that you are either a tourist or have the necessary resident and/or employment permits.


  • #3078
    Rjd2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,272 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Her problem is that she shouldn't have appointed him in the first place. Now that he is there she cannot get rid of him as he will be able to shout very loudly from the backbenches if he is fired. She should have let him slip into obscurity after he decided not to run in the leadership election. She kept him in the spotlight.

    No, he'd have been a bigger pest on the backbenches with his numerous media contacts **** stirring all the time, May at least is able to keep an eye on him and actually make him to do some work. From all accounts he is not particularly happy with his current role, something which I am sure will break May's heart.


  • #3079
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Enzokk wrote: »
    But they will, if the CTA is continued. Do you not see this? If a person is a EU citizen they can enter the UK via the CTA, even when the UK stops the free movement of people.

    Good morning!

    Firstly - I've already acknowledged that EU citizens will be able to freely travel to the United Kingdom after Brexit. This is what the Government wants at every border not just in Ireland. Employment restrictions will be handled through quotas and employment checks.

    Secondly - the CTA is a bilateral agreement between the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and its crown dependencies. It isn't governed by the EU. Moreover, the CTA doesn't have common visa recognition. An Irish visa isn't sufficient for UK travel or vice versa. You can be deported if you enter the UK from Ireland without a valid UK visa. There's only two exceptions to this rule. There is common visa recognition for tourist visas issued to India and China.

    Thirdly - if you're saying that the EU will have any say on who the United Kingdom allows into their jurisdiction and on what terms after Brexit you need to start backing this up with reasons why.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


  • #3080
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,626 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Secondly - the CTA is a bilateral agreement between the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and it's crown dependencies. It isn't governed by the EU. Moreover, the CTA doesn't have common visa recognition. An Irish visa isn't sufficient for UK travel or vice versa. You can be deported if you enter the UK from Ireland without a valid UK visa. There's only two exceptions to this rule. There is common visa recognition for tourist visas issued to India and China.
    You can indeed by deported if you enter the UK from Ireland without a valid UK visa. The problems is detecting you in order to deport you.

    The CTA has always provided a "back door" into the UK via Ireland (or into Ireland via the UK). The reason that this has been sustainable in practice is that Ireland and the UK have kept their visa/migration policies closely co-ordinated. The population of people entitled to enter Ireland but not the UK, or vice versa, has been small enough that the "leakage" facilitated by the CTA has been small enough to be manageable.

    This calculation changes if Irish and UK visa/migration policies diverge.
    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Thirdly - if you're saying that the EU will have any say on who the United Kingdom allows into their jurisdiction and on what terms after Brexit you need to start backing this up with reasons why.
    The reason why will be the CTA. As long as the CTA exists, anyone who has a right to enter Ireland (and that includes people who have a legal right under EU law) will in practice be able to enter the UK via Ireland.

    As regards EU nationals this doesn't matter hugely if the UK intends anyway to allow EU nationals a right of entry to the UK (as is likely). Where I think we run into tensions is with respect to third country nationals who may have rights under EU law (e.g. as family members or dependents of EU nationals) which are wider than the rights that UK law would afford them. As long as the CTA exists, that group will be able to evade controls on their entry into the UK by entering via Ireland.


  • #3081
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You can indeed by deported if you enter the UK from Ireland without a valid UK visa. The problems is detecting you in order to deport you.

    The CTA has always provided a "back door" into the UK via Ireland (or into Ireland via the UK). The reason that this has been sustainable in practice is that Ireland and the UK have kept their visa/migration policies closely co-ordinated. The population of people entitled to enter Ireland but not the UK, or vice versa, has been small enough that the "leakage" facilitated by the CTA has been small enough to be manageable.

    This calculation changes if Irish and UK visa/migration policies diverge.


    The reason why will be the CTA. As long as the CTA exists, anyone who has a right to enter Ireland (and that includes people who have a legal right under EU law) will in practice be able to enter the UK via Ireland.

    As regards EU nationals this doesn't matter hugely if the UK intends anyway to allow EU nationals a right of entry to the UK (as is likely). Where I think we run into tensions is with respect to third country nationals who may have rights under EU law (e.g. as family members or dependents of EU nationals) which are wider than the rights that UK law would afford them. As long as the CTA exists, that group will be able to evade controls on their entry into the UK by entering via Ireland.

    Good morning!

    I agree with all of this.

    The reason why I'm responding in this manner is because there are some posters who are suggesting that the EU will have control over the UK's border policy after Brexit.

    This isn't true.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


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  • #3082
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,626 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Good morning!

    I agree with all of this.

    The reason why I'm responding in this manner is because there are some posters who are suggesting that the EU will have control over the UK's border policy after Brexit.

    This isn't true.
    The EU will have some (practical) control over the EU's border policy, e.g with respect to third country nationals enjoying rights under EU law.

    That degree control will be increased if Ireland joins the Schengen group (and of course the calculation as to the desirability of Ireland joining the Schengen group will itself be affected by Brexit and how the Brexit-related border issues play out) or if EU visa/migration policies are otherwise more closely aligned than at present.

    The bottom line, of course, is that the UK can always end the CTA at any time it chooses. (As can Ireland.) In that sense the UK can always recover control of its borders (at least in this respect).

    The question is whether the maintenance of the CTA is consistent with the degree of border control that the UK wishes to exercise. This is one of the many tensions in the UK's states aspirations that the UK is reluctant to explore, or even acknowledge.

    But this degree of cognitive dissonance can't persist for ever; there are already signs that the wheels are starting to come off the "everything will be fine!" attitude to Brexit.


  • #3083
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Good morning!

    Again - If Ireland joins Schengen the UK is still perfectly entitled to decide who enters the UK and on what terms. It isn't true to say that Ireland or the EU can insist on who the UK allows through its borders.

    Ireland and the EU can make their own decisions about their borders but not about the UK border and who can enter.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


  • #3084
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,626 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Again - If Ireland joins Schengen the UK is still perfectly entitled to decide who enters the UK and on what terms. It isn't true to say that Ireland or the EU can insist on who the UK allows through its borders.
    I think the point is that in order to make that decision effectively, the UK may have to end the CTA.

    As long as the CTA is maintained, then whoever controls Irish visa/migration policy - whether that's Ireland, or the EU, or some combination of the two - effectively decides who can enter the UK via Ireland. (And vice versa, of course.)


  • #3085
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,997 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    At this stage Britain should just default on WTO rules and leave. It might give some certainty. No doubt it would be painful for Ireland, but what do they care?
    They literally cannot do this or there will be complete chaos. Mass flight cancellations, trucks at ports with food rotting inside, decimation of huge numbers of service jobs, no access to nuclear isotopes even for medicine, etc.

    No deal is an appalling vista for everyone but especially the UK.


  • #3086
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I think the point is that in order to make that decision effectively, the UK may have to end the CTA.

    As long as the CTA is maintained, then whoever controls Irish visa/migration policy - whether that's Ireland, or the EU, or some combination of the two - effectively decides who can enter the UK via Ireland. (And vice versa, of course.)

    Good morning!

    This is phrasing it in the wrong way. Remember, the CTA is a common travel area containing the United Kingdom, some of her crown dependencies (namely the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) and Ireland.

    If Ireland decides to leave the CTA that is Ireland's decision. I think Ireland would be the poorer for it. I've yet to see any evidence that the CTA is subject to Brussels.

    The CTA will still exist, it will simply be a free travel area for the the crown dependencies and the United Kingdom.

    Obviously, Ireland has control over who enters the Republic of Ireland. That's a given. I don't know why you mention this as if it's a surprise. Obviously movement between the border of the Republic and Northern Ireland can only happen by those who are permitted to enter the Republic in the first place, and vice versa. That doesn't mean that Ireland decides who can enter the UK. People can fly in or enter via another frontier.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


  • #3087
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,997 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The CTA worked because Ireland and the UK have very similar regimes (intentionally so!) when it comes to third countries. Indeed the respective immigration services share data about third country arrivals.

    Data sharing about EU citizens will not happen obviously.

    It will be impossible to tell a naturalised Pole apart from an illegal one (UK has no ID card for all).

    Even today there is a huge black economy labour market. Now a few hundred million people who can enter the UK completely undetected via Ireland will also become illegals.

    And we're supposed to believe the Home Office can police this?

    If you can't control your border effectively you can just give up. There will be so many EU illegals working in the UK that your chances of getting caught will be quite low as there simply won't be the manpower to do anywhere near enough spot checks.


  • #3088
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    murphaph wrote: »
    The CTA worked because Ireland and the UK have very similar regimes (intentionally so!) when it comes to third countries. Indeed the respective immigration services share data about third country arrivals.

    Data sharing about EU citizens will not happen obviously.

    It will be impossible to tell a naturalised Pole apart from an illegal one (UK has no ID card for all).

    Even today there is a huge black economy labour market. Now a few hundred million people who can enter the UK completely undetected via Ireland will also become illegals.

    And we're supposed to believe the Home Office can police this?

    If you can't control your border effectively you can just give up. There will be so many EU illegals working in the UK that your chances of getting caught will be quite low as there simply won't be the manpower to do anywhere near enough spot checks.

    Good morning!

    Again - I feel you're missing the point.

    Free travel for EU citizens is what the UK desires post-Brexit (on any border with the EU). Checks will happen in respect to employment. That's what the UK Government are deciding to do. How effective or not that happens to be is a matter for the UK Government, not for the EU or anyone else.

    EDIT: Again, the ID card myth. Every national in the EU (asides from Irish) will have to apply for "settled status" which issues a biometric ID. This is how the UK Border Force deal with non-EU illegal immigration already. It's remit will be simply extended to EU nationals. I've been through this already very clearly on this thread.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


  • #3089
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,626 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    This is phrasing it in the wrong way. Remember, the CTA is a common travel area containing the United Kingdom, some of her crown dependencies (namely the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) and Ireland.

    If Ireland decides to leave the CTA that is Ireland's decision. I think Ireland would be the poorer for it . . .
    I don’t think there’s any likelihood that Ireland will try to leave the CTA. This “control of the borders” thing is a UK preoccupation.
    solodeogloria wrote: »
    The CTA will still exist, it will simply be a free travel area for the the crown dependencies and the United Kingdom.
    Well, even if the crown dependencies were to leave it, the CTA would still exist within the UK. And even if Northern Ireland were to leave it, the CTA would still exist within Great Britain. And you can continue reducing the size of the CTA as much as you want, and say that the CTA still exists in the remaining territory. So what? For present purposes what matters is whether a CTA which includes part of the EU is consistent with the UK’s objectives as regards border control.
    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Obviously, Ireland has control over who enters the Republic of Ireland. That's a given.
    No, it isn’t. Ireland doesn’t have control over who enters the Republic of Ireland. Irish law is subordinated to EU law on this issue. That’s rather the point.
    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Obviously movement between the border of the Republic and Northern Ireland can only happen by those who are permitted to enter the Republic in the first place, and vice versa.
    Yes, but think about the consequences of this. Since the UK doesn’t control who gets to enter the Republic, maintaining the CTA with the Republic diminishes the UK’s control over its own borders. As long as the CTA is maintained, entry of third country nationals into the UK across the land border with the Republic is in fact controlled by the Republic (via which third country nationals are permitted to enter the Republic), which in turn is subject to any relevant requirements of EU law. And the fact that so many Brexit supporters seem not to grasp this or to be in denial about it is worrying. The UK’s commitment to maintain the CTA isn’t something in which Ireland can take a lot of comfort if they haven’t grasped the degree to which this punches a hole in the objective of controlling the UK’s borders. When reality finally sinks in, we may find that the UK is less committed to the CTA with Ireland than they say they are at present.


  • #3090
    ambro25
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ambro25


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    Firstly - I've already acknowledged that EU citizens will be able to freely travel to the United Kingdom after Brexit. This is what the Government wants at every border not just in Ireland. Employment restrictions will be handled through quotas and employment checks.
    We were just talking about that with my wife this weekend. Do you have any first-hand experience of the existing provisions about non-EU nationals in that regard?

    I only ask, because you consistently raise this point as some sort of "employers will do all the vetting, it'll all be fine" slam-dunk answer, but the evidence to date is that most British employers (which is SMEs without dedicated HR, not large groups will dedicated HR) still haven't got the foggiest in the first place, and many of those which do (particularly in the security services industry) have seen their staff-related overheads balloon out of all proportion, to the extent that they simply can't afford to fulfil staffing requirements.

    My wife is a qualified SIA vetter. She's in charge of doing exactly that: conducting full due diligence on a potential employee's immigration status and right to work in the country (besides actual ID confirmation, criminal record <anywhere>, length of time in-country, etc: the full and provable 'where have you been and what have you done for the past 5 years' to the date of job application). Let me tell you that for anyone outside the EU -and particularly for those originating from 'at risk places' (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, continental Africa) it routinely takes her 2 to 3 days at least. Per would-be employee. Employed on minimum wage or thereabouts.

    The attrition rate -after interview and job offer- currently stands around 50% (50% of applicants can't be fully vetted within an economical timeframe -if at all- and so aren't employed eventually). Most often because the home country's consular services/local authorities haven't got confirmatory data, or don't want to send the data to a private UK company, or 'forget' to send it.

    They're all in the UK applying for jobs just the same. When the ACS-registered employer doesn't take them, another not bothering with industry normalisation will. And there's plenty of those, both within and outside the private security sector.

    Do you genuinely think extending the principle to all industry sectors in the UK for EU nationals as well is going to work?

    By the way, the vetting qualification (and training for same) of my anecdotal, first-hand experience is SIA-specific: there is no involvement from the HO or HMBF whatsoever, nor any ongoing standardisation or normalisation of that training, qualification and 'job' across sectors.


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  • #3091
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Yes, but think about the consequences of this. Since the UK doesn’t control who gets to enter the Republic, maintaining the CTA with the Republic diminishes the UK’s control over its own borders. As long as the CTA is maintained, entry of third country nationals into the UK across the land border with the Republic is in fact controlled by the Republic (via which third country nationals are permitted to enter the Republic), which in turn is subject to any relevant requirements of EU law. And the fact that so many Brexit supporters seem not to grasp this or to be in denial about it is worrying. The UK’s commitment to maintain the CTA isn’t something in which Ireland can take a lot of comfort if they haven’t grasped the degree to which this punches a hole in the objective of controlling the UK’s borders. When reality finally sinks in, we may find that the UK is less committed to the CTA with Ireland than they say they are at present.

    Good evening!

    If you're a national not permitted to enter Ireland, you can enter the UK via another border, or fly in if you are eligible. Again, this doesn't have an impact on who can enter the UK. The UK will have full control over who can enter the UK after Brexit.

    Claiming that Ireland has control of its frontier and that means only people who are eligible to enter Ireland can enter the UK through the Ireland border is an obvious fact that I am well aware of.

    My point is that the EU will have no control whatsoever over who is entitled to enter the UK after Brexit. That will be a matter for Parliament.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


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