Whats the End Game for the Palestinians?

BalcombeSt4 · 13-09-2017 10:41pm #1

It seems a two state solution isn't really workable anymore as Israeli settlers keep taken land from the West Bank, which is now starting to look like a checker board and there's no chance in hell Israel will allow a Palestine state while there is still Israeli's in the territory they want the state to be in.

And also Israel does not want a one state solution which would add like 2.5 - 3 million Palestinians into it which would be a danger to it's status as "Jewish State". A bit like how Loyalists here didn't want Cavan, Monaghan & Donegal as it would be a danger to their "Protestant State".

It looks like to me that Israel increasingly are carrying out a slow ethnic cleansing of Arabs from the occupied areas. Israel's end goal looks like they just want all Palestinians in Gaza & the West bank to move into other Arab countries as refugees, and there doesn't seem to be much that can stop (clearly the UN can't or won't) them.

So what do people see the End Game as being?

FTA69 · 14-09-2017 11:49am

The end game is pretty much how you described it. Israel has no desire to live in peace alongside independent Palestinians; as such they are trying to fracture the concept of a Palestinian people by cantonising them into ghettos and slowly colonising the choice parts of the West Bank. At the centre of the Israeli state is the philosophy that the Arab people living there are simply interlopers and need to be pushed off bit by bit. They are able to get away with this due to the overt backing of the USA and to a lesser extent various other western institutions.

What is happening to the Palestinian people is a crying shame.

Zerbini Blewitt · 15-09-2017 11:37am

Israel can

a) end the 50 year occupation or
b) have a genuine unitary state –democracy and equality for all citizens or
c) continue with this dark ages slow motion ethnic cleansing

It is looking like most of Israel’s governing parties intend sticking with (c) so the time has come for sanctions increasing in steps to an almost total economic embargo. The world can (& does) get computer chips and new medicines elsewhere.

Its citizens should be refused tourist visas for every country on Earth.

Also, Israel should be kicked out of every international organisation even including FIFA & Eurovision.

This all could happen (and would change Israel’s policies fairly sharpish) however, the world doesn’t seem to have the appetite for it?

If Israel succeeds with this ethnic cleansing (with the continuing US bulwark/veto) I think it will continue to be seen as an outlaw state by the world & eternally despised by it’s neighbours in that region.

What a lovely ‘gift’ Israeli’s are handing to their future generations.

backspin. · 15-09-2017 2:36pm

I used to think a two state solution was a possibility but over the last 5 years i just can't see it ever happen. The future is either living in poverty in pockets of the west bank or Gaza with the best land annexed by Israel or they can leave. Its a truly grim situation for the Palestinians over there.

BalcombeSt4 · 15-09-2017 8:44pm

backspin. wrote: »

I used to think a two state solution was a possibility but over the last 5 years i just can't see it ever happen. The future is either living in poverty in pockets of the west bank or Gaza with the best land annexed by Israel or they can leave. Its a truly grim situation for the Palestinians over there.

But even packing your bags an leaving isn't simple for a person Gaza. As David Cameron described it "it's an open air prison".

And the thing is about 95% of the Israeli public support the government line when it comes to dealing with the West Bank & Gaza. The small groups of Israelis do are brave people, John Pilger interviewed one of them a 40+ year old who had lost his 13 year old daughter in a Hamas bomb in 2003, and he made his feelings clear that there needs to be a Palestine state if peace is to reign sumpreme between the two.

All the international support Palestine recieves among populations of the world they need to to turn that support into actions by their governments. And Trade Uniions have their part to play, remember the Dunnes Stores workers who made world headlines for refusing to handle South African goods.

eyerer · 15-09-2017 8:55pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

But even packing your bags an leaving isn't simple for a person Gaza. As David Cameron described it "it's an open air prison".

Isn't it disturbing that they can do this to people after the Jewish concentration camps the Nazis had
There's a quote about history being doomed to repeat itself if you don't learn the lessons..

recedite · 16-09-2017 12:14pm

A 2 state solution was never viable in the long term anyway.
The future is a unified secular state that respects all citizens equally.
But unfortunately that is still a long way off. The same kind of future awaits Ireland BTW.

There are arab Israelis who have been born and raised inside "Israel proper" as opposed to the occupied territories, and they enjoy a good standard of living. The only thing they lack is the freedom to organise a political party that openly opposes the Jewish State.

When the jews move beyond wanting to mantain a JS and the muslims move beyond wanting an IS, then everything will fall into place.

ancapailldorcha · 16-09-2017 12:26pm

Would something akin to the Northern Ireland peace process be viable with both Jews and Arabs sharing power?

recedite · 16-09-2017 12:47pm

I don't see why not.

recedite · 16-09-2017 1:06pm

One of the problems for the jews and the JS is that there are neighbouring countries who would like to annihilate them.
If they incorporated all the arabs as full citizens, the arabs might vote for policies in such a way as to deliberately weaken Israel's security. So they would act as "a fifth column" within the state, making it vulnerable to invasion.

What Israeli's fail to take into account though, is that if there was a secular state in which both jews and arabs lived and prospered as equals together, than maybe the neighbours would be less likely to want them annihilated. Also the occupied palestinians would have a stake in the country, so they would be less of a fifth column.

So the way to achieve this is via a gradual power sharing process.

eyerer · 16-09-2017 4:33pm

Sounds a lot like the north and the Israelis will behave just as the DUP does. That's if a peace process there could even begin

James Brown · 18-09-2017 4:02pm

recedite wrote: »

One of the problems for the jews and the JS is that there are neighbouring countries who would like to annihilate them.
If they incorporated all the arabs as full citizens, the arabs might vote for policies in such a way as to deliberately weaken Israel's security. So they would act as "a fifth column" within the state, making it vulnerable to invasion.

What Israeli's fail to take into account though, is that if there was a secular state in which both jews and arabs lived and prospered as equals together, than maybe the neighbours would be less likely to want them annihilated. Also the occupied palestinians would have a stake in the country, so they would be less of a fifth column.

So the way to achieve this is via a gradual power sharing process.

The trouble with that scenario is the Jewish faith is the cornerstone of why Israel was created in the first place. It's a state set up for Jewish people to live like their faith intended, no other religions will be tolerated especially in regard to state policy.
This is where they have a similarity with the likes of the DUP, except the DUP must play at democracy.

Junkyard Tom · 19-09-2017 1:31am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would something akin to the Northern Ireland peace process be viable with both Jews and Arabs sharing power?

Not a hope. The 'Jewish state' depends on a Jewish majority so Jewish Israelis would object to a one-state-solution far more than a two-state-solution.

Israelis pretend they support a two-state-solution while simultaneously destroying any chance it could happen.

The two-state-solution is history. The one-state-solution is fantasy.

recedite · 19-09-2017 8:48am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The trouble with that scenario is the Jewish faith is the cornerstone of why Israel was created in the first place. It's a state set up for Jewish people to live like their faith intended, no other religions will be tolerated especially in regard to state policy.
This is where they have a similarity with the likes of the DUP, except the DUP must play at democracy.

That's all true. But eventually there will come a time when a new generation of Israelis will decide that they prefer to live in a peaceful but secular state, instead of a zionist state in a constant state of war. Ditto for the Palestinians, except substitute "islamic state" for "zionist state" there.

seamus · 19-09-2017 9:37am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would something akin to the Northern Ireland peace process be viable with both Jews and Arabs sharing power?

recedite wrote: »

That's all true. But eventually there will come a time when a new generation of Israelis will decide that they prefer to live in a peaceful but secular state, instead of a zionist state in a constant state of war. Ditto for the Palestinians, except substitute "islamic state" for "zionist state" there.

In theory I suppose, and that would be the hope.
But Israel has for 4 decades been stuck in the place that NI was in the 1960s/1970s - nothing but pure hatred between the two sides and as such neither side is going to want to compromise anything to power share with the other.
The first step to a peaceful solution is that Israeli settling halts completely.

Until that happens, the Palestinians, understandably, are going to continue pushing back and engaging in hostility.

But Israel has been getting increasingly more aggressive, not less, so I can only see this whole mess going one way. The question is whether the US is ultimately willing to create WWIII by getting involved.

marcus001 · 19-09-2017 10:29am

The Israelis know that no matter what they do they will always be hated by their neighbours especially. At that point the slow motion ethnic cleansing you describe becomes a serious option because they could never ever live together.

James Brown · 19-09-2017 2:18pm

Israel was founded by force. That's the heart of it. I don't see it as two, (or numerous) equally culpable sides. Israel was always the aggressor. There is no way the U.S. will intervene to assist the Palestinians. Obama gave Israel a kick in the shin during his last days in office with choosing not to veto the UN settlement issue; but it was too little too late really.
We'll watch as the Israeli state wipes out the Palestinians as we throw the odd piecemeal sanction at them. The best the Palestinians can hope for is being a transient minority in the region, if the Israelis leave a significant number at peace.

Sand · 19-09-2017 9:06pm

marcus001 wrote: »

The Israelis know that no matter what they do they will always be hated by their neighbours especially. At that point the slow motion ethnic cleansing you describe becomes a serious option because they could never ever live together.

Yes, neither the one state nor the two state options are viable. Israel cant be influenced to pursue either regardless of any blockade or boycott. A boycott could cost them money. The one state/two state solution could cost them and their families their lives. So boycotts might be painful, but they wont be mortal threats in the same way as a one state/two state solution could be. The window of opportunity to develop the necessary trust to adjust that arithmetic has passed. Protest has failed. Violence has failed. Diplomacy has failed.

70 years have passed since Israel achieved independence, the Palestinians rejected the UN two state deal and Israel won the resulting war and every war since. Palestinians have taken it as an article of faith that what happened is temporary, and can be reversed somehow back to 1947. But that is increasingly fanciful. Ultimately, 200, 300 years from now there will be a single state outcome. But it will not be shared with the Palestinians.

eyerer wrote: »

Isn't it disturbing that they can do this to people after the Jewish concentration camps the Nazis had
There's a quote about history being doomed to repeat itself if you don't learn the lessons..

Well, the Israelis have drawn lessons from the past - that they cant rely on anyone else for their own security and the survival of their families. Look at how that's working out for the Palestinians.

James Brown · 20-09-2017 2:00pm

Sand wrote: »

....

Well, the Israelis have drawn lessons from the past - that they cant rely on anyone else for their own security and the survival of their families. Look at how that's working out for the Palestinians.

If you planted yourself somewhere and maltreated the indigenous population, it stands to reason you'd need security. The story of Israel being bullied while minding it's own business isn't selling.

ancapailldorcha · 21-09-2017 2:52pm

Raise the standard of posting please.

BalcombeSt4 · 23-09-2017 1:04am

recedite wrote: »

A 2 state solution was never viable in the long term anyway.
The future is a unified secular state that respects all citizens equally.
But unfortunately that is still a long way off. The same kind of future awaits Ireland BTW.

There are arab Israelis who have been born and raised inside "Israel proper" as opposed to the occupied territories, and they enjoy a good standard of living. The only thing they lack is the freedom to organise a political party that openly opposes the Jewish State.

When the jews move beyond wanting to mantain a JS and the muslims move beyond wanting an IS, then everything will fall into place.

I think when the Oslo accords in 1993 happened people wished for a South African style or Irish style peace to break out.

BalcombeSt4 · 23-09-2017 1:43am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If you planted yourself somewhere and maltreated the indigenous population, it stands to reason you'd need security. The story of Israel being bullied while minding it's own business isn't selling.

Norman Finkelstien who has been studying Israelie society for the last 35 years or so likened it to a Spartan society were military is everything, were more value is placed on a military death than a civilian death, in most western countries its the other way around as a military person knows the risks he faces a civilian does not.

recedite · 23-09-2017 3:30pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Norman Finkelstien who has been studying Israelie society for the last 35 years or so likened it to a Spartan society were military is everything, were more value is placed on a military death than a civilian death, in most western countries its the other way around as a military person knows the risks he faces a civilian does not.

Good point, but then a military death is considered a sacrifice for the nation, whereas a civilian death is more "accidental". In the USA there is as much respect attached to military service as in Israel.
Even in a non-militarised society like Ireland, if a Garda is killed in the line of duty it is seen as an attack on society itself and therefore treated differently to a "normal" murder.

Snickers Man · 25-09-2017 10:02am

Mike Murphy, the lightest in RTE's pantheon of light entertainers, has just come back from a fact-finding mission to Palestine and pronounced himself shocked at the conditions in which the indigenous people of the territory now known as Israel live.

Some younger readers might not know who Mike Murphy is. He's a retired RTE presenter famous for hosting fluffy programmes like the Eurovision song contest, the Rose of Tralee and various other family entertainment shows in years gone by. If you ever watch reruns of things like Reeling in the Years, he's the guy disguised as a French soccer supporter who got Gaybo to say "**** off" on the television back in 1981.

Anyway, wracked with guilt at declining to become a knee-jerk supporter of the Anti Apartheid movement back when his star was brightest he now appears to be keen to don the conscientious overalls and take up the fight on behalf of the world's put-upon peoples and let's face it, Aung San Suu Kyi appears to have blotted her copybook of late. So Palestine it is.

He's not wrong, of course. The Israeli actions against Palestinians are despicable. But is this now going to be something that wealthy entertainment pensioners are going to occupy themselves with in their idle years?

johnnyskeleton · 25-09-2017 3:03pm

Mod note:

Threads merged.

recedite · 26-09-2017 12:14am

Snickers Man wrote: »

Mike Murphy, the lightest in RTE's pantheon of light entertainers...

Good description.
A lot of retired comedians seem to spend their time making boring TV programmes about themselves traveling the world, but I guess Mike's budget did not quite stretch that far, so we have to make do with this newspaper article instead.
Yeah, its a serious and tragic subject, but he has no new insights into it.

eyerer · 26-09-2017 11:50am

I remember Mike Murphy from such light entertainment shows as Winning Streak

ancapailldorcha · 26-09-2017 12:08pm

eyerer wrote: »

I remember Mike Murphy from such light entertainment shows as Winning Streak

Please read the charter before posting again. This is a forum for serious discussion.

James Brown · 26-09-2017 1:29pm

The man could genuinely be interested? I've met him in a professional capacity and he came across as pretty genuine. The Palestinians need all the publicity they can get.
We've a lot of 'musicians' too in the raising awareness field. How bad would things be if we were solely dependent on politicians pandering to interest groups to raise awareness on issues? Good on him.

Whats the End Game for the Palestinians?

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