Stallions

Lt Dan · 01-08-2017 04:35PM

Another Group 1 win for the mighty Sea The Stars. Up ya boya

WickIow Brave · 01-08-2017 05:47PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Another Group 1 win for the mighty Sea The Stars. Up ya boya

Funnily enough Stradivarius is now a Grp I and Grp II winner. Last year he'd have only a Listed and Grp II to his name winning same races.

Lt Dan · 02-08-2017 06:25PM

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Funnily enough Stradivarius is now a Grp I and Grp II winner. Last year he'd have only a Listed and Grp II to his name winning same races.

Well the Goodwood Cup was a Group 1 all but in name in the last few year. Insane for the Goodwood, part of the Stayers Triple Crown , to punish an Ascot Gold Cup winner with silly Group 1 penalty at the short distance.

ArmaniJeanss · 03-08-2017 10:06AM

So many Group 1 races now compared to 15 years ago.
Have their been any good articles/debate about it, personally I think its dilutes the concept of what Group 1 is supposed to mean.

tryfix · 23-08-2017 05:21PM

The Galileo show keeps on rolling at a ridiculous pace again today, not only did he add a million euros or more to his sires total today but in the two feature races at York he or his sons and daughters supplied all the runner bar 2 in those races and those 2 non- Galileo horses finished last and second last in the Juddmonte. For good measure the winner of the Acomb Stakes was out of one of his daughters.

There are so many more of his line to follow that it's hard to compare it to anything other than the domination that Northern Dancer imposed on breeding. At least he's not able to muscle in on the sprinters.

tryfix · 25-08-2017 05:36PM

Which stallion would be a good match for Enable when she retires?

Dubawi would seems to be the favourite to get the job, I'd be inclined to send her to Dansili or Oasis Dream in the hope of not producing a slow boat of a stayer.

Juddmonte's own Kingman would be a nice match up.

Lt Dan · 27-08-2017 01:19AM

tryfix wrote: »

Which stallion would be a good match for Enable when she retires?

Dubawi would seems to be the favourite to get the job, I'd be inclined to send her to Dansili or Oasis Dream in the hope of not producing a slow boat of a stayer.

Juddmonte's own Kingman would be a nice match up.

Kingman would be the obvious to give him a good start within the 4th or 5th crops, but, Dansili has being a great servant to Juddmonte and has produced classy middle distance horses and excellent fillies for them and for other owners, so I hope he does not get forgotten . I would give him first chance with her.

They haven't really relied on Oasis Dream in a while, and the ones that they have , haven't been that great in the last 3 or so years (for them)

Sea The Stars has apparently covered her mother, Concentric, so one would imagine even pairing him with Enable is a big no non since he is a half brother to Galileo via Urban Sea, and there is enough Saddlers Well inbreeding in Enable, and stamina as there is

Speaking of which, I notice that Sea The Stars does not seem to have as many horses on the race track. I know that he isn't considered to one for precious 2 year olds and that they need time, even not running until 3, I notice some are often gelded (Mark Prescott is keen on them geldings) .

Is there a particular reason why owners, with the exception of owner breeders (I note Khalid Abdullah has had two or three fillies and has a few more yearlings, Godolpin have used him a fair bit as has Shadwell) are not so quick to use him? Even Aga Khan hasn't had many bar Harzand. Stallions fees off putting? Or is it a case that he has to deal with his half brother and many of his progeny that are now stallions themselves, even Group 1 winning Stallions ?

tryfix · 27-08-2017 03:10PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Kingman would be the obvious to give him a good start within the 4th or 5th crops, but, Dansili has being a great servant to Juddmonte and has produced classy middle distance horses and excellent fillies for them and for other owners, so I hope he does not get forgotten . I would give him first chance with her.

They haven't really relied on Oasis Dream in a while, and the ones that they have , haven't been that great in the last 3 or so years (for them)

Sea The Stars has apparently covered her mother, Concentric, so one would imagine even pairing him with Enable is a big no non since he is a half brother to Galileo via Urban Sea, and there is enough Saddlers Well inbreeding in Enable, and stamina as there is

Speaking of which, I notice that Sea The Stars does not seem to have as many horses on the race track. I know that he isn't considered to one for precious 2 year olds and that they need time, even not running until 3, I notice some are often gelded (Mark Prescott is keen on them geldings) .

Is there a particular reason why owners, with the exception of owner breeders (I note Khalid Abdullah has had two or three fillies and has a few more yearlings, Godolpin have used him a fair bit as has Shadwell) are not so quick to use him? Even Aga Khan hasn't had many bar Harzand. Stallions fees off putting? Or is it a case that he has to deal with his half brother and many of his progeny that are now stallions themselves, even Group 1 winning Stallions ?

I was only thinking of Oasis Dream because he's often used to speed up a staying pedigree, he's also turning into a very good broodmare sire which would make any filly foal instantly sought after.

Juddmonte also have the mighty Arrogate going to stud next year, so that would make sense, also given War Front's success with Galileo mares, that would be a nice match up and would be a Danzig-Sadlers Wells cross which is the most potent cross in modern European racing.

I agree that Sea The Stars has few enough runners ( 93 runners GB&Ireland this year which is only 20 runners less than the much younger Frankel ) for a stallion of his stature, he was covering 150 mares a year and his fee has risen from €85,000 to 125,000 over the years so he must have been filling his book of mares. There's something going on there, his stock are sought after so it's not like no one wants to train them. Maybe there are a lot of them that have been exported to the likes of Australia and China or they could be gone to the breeding shed.

BumperD · 27-08-2017 03:58PM

Presenting passed away. Great nh sire.

tryfix · 30-08-2017 10:25PM

BumperD wrote: »

Presenting passed away. Great nh sire.

It's a pity there's no son of Presenting worthy of keeping his line going, ( as far as I can see, I could easily be wrong).

Someone missed a trick by not putting Presenting and a decent flat mare together to produce a ready made replacement for the old money spinner.

Looking at Yeats there's one NH stallion who is going to sire bucket loads of NH stallions via producing group class stayers on the flat. His stock are really beginning to make their mark in staying races on the flat, they appear to have inherited his toughness and stamina.

Lt Dan · 31-08-2017 10:09PM

tryfix wrote: »

It's a pity there's no son of Presenting worthy of keeping his line going, ( as far as I can see, I could easily be wrong).

Someone missed a trick by not putting Presenting and a decent flat mare together to produce a ready made replacement for the old money spinner.

Looking at Yeats there's one NH stallion who is going to sire bucket loads of NH stallions via producing group class stayers on the flat. His stock are really beginning to make their mark in staying races on the flat, they appear to have inherited his toughness and stamina.

Do /did many of the other studs ever do something like that with King's Theatre or Kayef Tara? I know his flat record for progeny was not something to shout about but........

tryfix · 01-09-2017 01:13AM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Do /did many of the other studs ever do something like that with King's Theatre or Kayef Tara? I know his flat record for progeny was not something to shout about but........

I don't see any evidence that they do, and it should be a relatively simple task to match up a top NH stallion with a well bred mare that has produced a few black type progeny already where the blue hen element of the mare's pedigree almost guarantees the future siring prowess of any half decent colt that she produces.

You'd imagine the gamble would be worth taking, but I suppose there are so many relatively unloved group class stayers about already who are already guaranteed a crack at being a NH stallion because no one will give them a reasonable chance as flat stallions.

tatoo · 01-09-2017 09:02PM

tryfix wrote: »

I don't see any evidence that they do, and it should be a relatively simple task to match up a top NH stallion with a well bred mare that has produced a few black type progeny already where the blue hen element of the mare's pedigree almost guarantees the future siring prowess of any half decent colt that she produces.

You'd imagine the gamble would be worth taking, but I suppose there are so many relatively unloved group class stayers about already who are already guaranteed a crack at being a NH stallion because no one will give them a reasonable chance as flat stallions.

Plus you have some very capable flat stallions, like Mount Nelson and Champs Elysees, being discarded by the flat boys as they rush to find the new in fashion stallion.

Kings Theatre was mentioned a couple of posts back, he has a very exciting stallion son in Great Pretender, out of a Darshaan mare, who has followed up the success of Ptit Zig, and Mr. Mole from his early crops with the very impressive Punchestown Grade One Novice Chase winner Great Field.

tryfix · 12-09-2017 07:29PM

Nice to see that Camelot colt Tonkin going it at LISTOWEL today and to see Camelot having a listed winner in France a few days ago.

After Christopher Robin's poor second run I was beginning to think that Camelot's stud career was already in trouble, but things are picking up for him as was to be expected.

His stock look the part and that Christopher Robin is a particularly nice colt. I was hoping one of his might be up to taking something like the Racing Post Trophy and staking an early Derby claim, but they don't appear to be that precocious.

The Mig · 13-09-2017 08:34AM

Godolphin buy a son of Australia

https://twitter.com/coolmorestud/status/907652891829309441

diomed · 14-09-2017 10:29AM

The Mig wrote: »

Godolphin buy a son of Australia

I took a look at the pedigree of the yearling.

The foal sold is inbred 3x3 to Sadler's Wells.
That yearling has five sons of Northern Dancer in his pedigree.
I do not like duplications producing only sons.
The other inbreeding duplication in that yearling is two sons of Mr Prospector.
I am not a fan of the pedigree.

Australia's first yearlings are in 2017, and this is the first foal of the dam Fly Past, who was only placed in her races.
That is guessing on both the sire and the dam as they have no offspring on the racecourse.

The dam Fly Past was rated I believe about 75, which is an average rating.
Fly Past's dam, Daring Miss, was bred to top stallions: Dalakhani; Dansili; Dubai Millenium; Grand Lodge; King's Best; Oasis Dream; Rail Link; Zamindar.
The ratings of the foals of Daring Miss ranged from about 110 to 75 with an average of around 87 (median 84).

Peintre Celebre · 14-09-2017 04:41PM

Sure what do John Gosden and David Loder know

Australia selling exceptionally well

Imhof Tank · 14-09-2017 06:21PM

diomed wrote: »

I took a look at the pedigree of the yearling.

The foal sold is inbred 3x3 to Sadler's Wells.
That yearling has five sons of Northern Dancer in his pedigree.
I do not like duplications producing only sons.
The other inbreeding duplication in that yearling is two sons of Mr Prospector.
I am not a fan of the pedigree.

Australia's first yearlings are in 2017, and this is the first foal of the dam Fly Past, who was only placed in her races.
That is guessing on both the sire and the dam as they have no offspring on the racecourse.

The dam Fly Past was rated I believe about 75, which is an average rating.
Fly Past's dam, Daring Miss, was bred to top stallions: Dalakhani; Dansili; Dubai Millenium; Grand Lodge; King's Best; Oasis Dream; Rail Link; Zamindar.
The ratings of the foals of Daring Miss ranged from about 110 to 75 with an average of around 87 (median 84).

The issue is the identity of the buyer presumably, more so than whether the yearling is value or not?

tryfix · 14-09-2017 06:30PM

I do like Australia, those neat chestnut Galileos are both flashy and resolute. Even though he was speedy I'd be a bit worried about him trasmitting too much stamina to be a stallion sensation. However Galileo is a sire of sires and Australia has the career behind him to be a replacement for Galileo if he can start banging in the winners, but he's up against it. He hasn't got the blue hen type dam side that his daddy has. Ruler Of The World has a very fine stallion pedigree but is barely wanted at stud despite being a Derby winning half brother to a very decent sire in Duke Of Marmalade.

The likes of Gleneagles has the right pedigree to really make it as a sire. There are a lot of fabulously bred Galileo stallions coming on stream. What stud will Ulysses end up at? That Decorated Knight is also another very neat superbly bred stallion prospect.

Interesting times ahead in the search for a replacement for the great one.

WickIow Brave · 14-09-2017 11:58PM

tryfix wrote: »

I do like Australia, those neat chestnut Galileos are both flashy and resolute. Even though he was speedy I'd be a bit worried about him trasmitting too much stamina to be a stallion sensation. However Galileo is a sire of sires and Australia has the career behind him to be a replacement for Galileo if he can start banging in the winners, but he's up against it. He hasn't got the blue hen type dam side that his daddy has. Ruler Of The World has a very fine stallion pedigree but is barely wanted at stud despite being a Derby winning half brother to a very decent sire in Duke Of Marmalade.

The likes of Gleneagles has the right pedigree to really make it as a sire. There are a lot of fabulously bred Galileo stallions coming on stream. What stud will Ulysses end up at? That Decorated Knight is also another very neat superbly bred stallion prospect.

Interesting times ahead in the search for a replacement for the great one.

Yeah I can't wait to see how it will unfold over the next few years, really looking forward to the Australias and Gleneagles' getting on the track.

diomed · 15-09-2017 12:38PM

I have about 700 current sires on file. What have these 48 sires got in common that the others do not?

Name DOB (Location)

Milwaukee Brew (1997) (CAN)
Balko (2001) (FR)
Canyon Creek (1993) (FR)
Cokoriko (2009) (FR)
Gemix (2008) (FR)
Kendargent (2003) (FR)
Lauro (2003) (FR)
Maiguri (2008) (FR)
Network (1997) (FR)
Nicaron (2002) (FR)
Rio De La Plata (2005) (FR)
Turgeon (1986) (FR)
Apple Tree (1989) (GB)
Beat All (1996) (GB)
Gentlewave (2003) (GB)
Nayef (1998) (GB)
Lord Of England (2003) (GER)
Carlo Bank (1996) (IRE)
Flemensfirth (1992) (IRE)
Gamut (1999) (IRE)
Presenting (1992) (IRE) dead
Prince Flori (2003) (IRE)
Robin Des Champs (1997) (IRE)
Tagula (1993) (IRE)
Vinnie Roe (1998) (IRE)
Victoire Pisa (2007) (JPN)
Aikenite (2007) (USA)
Astrology (2008) (USA)
Cross Traffic (2009) (USA)
Dominus (2008) (USA)
Even The Score (1998) (USA)
Fort Larned (2008) (USA)
Hat Trick (2001) (USA)
I Want Revenge (2006) (USA)
Liam's Map (2011) (USA)
Macho Uno (1998) (USA)
Midshipman (2006) (USA)
Mineshaft (1999) (USA)
Mizzen Mast (1998) (USA)
Mr Speaker (2011) (USA)
Musketier (2002) (USA)
Orb (2010) (USA)
Power Broker (2010) (USA)
Revolutionary (2010) (USA)
Run Away And Hide (2006) (USA)
Shakin It Up (2010) (USA)
Street Boss (2004) (USA)
Taste Of Paradise (1999) (USA)

Imhof Tank · 15-09-2017 12:59PM

Based on the theme of previous posts of yours, are they complete Northern Dancer outcrosses?

diomed · 15-09-2017 01:08PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Based on the theme of previous posts of yours, are they complete Northern Dancer outcrosses?

Yes, I think they have no Northern Dancer in their pedigrees (but I haven't eyeballed the pedigrees fully).
Many of the ones that surfaced are jump sires.
I wrote a few programs analysing sires looking for sires with good horses on their lesser pedigree lines i.e. sires and dams who produced many offspring.
Top of the class for you.

tryfix · 15-09-2017 01:28PM

diomed wrote: »

I have about 700 current sires on file. What have these 48 sires got in common that the others do not?

Name DOB (Location)

Milwaukee Brew (1997) (CAN)
Balko (2001) (FR)
Canyon Creek (1993) (FR)
Cokoriko (2009) (FR)
Gemix (2008) (FR)
Kendargent (2003) (FR)
Lauro (2003) (FR)
Maiguri (2008) (FR)
Network (1997) (FR)
Nicaron (2002) (FR)
Rio De La Plata (2005) (FR)
Turgeon (1986) (FR)
Apple Tree (1989) (GB)
Beat All (1996) (GB)
Gentlewave (2003) (GB)
Nayef (1998) (GB)
Lord Of England (2003) (GER)
Carlo Bank (1996) (IRE)
Flemensfirth (1992) (IRE)
Gamut (1999) (IRE)
Presenting (1992) (IRE) dead
Prince Flori (2003) (IRE)
Robin Des Champs (1997) (IRE)
Tagula (1993) (IRE)
Vinnie Roe (1998) (IRE)
Victoire Pisa (2007) (JPN)
Aikenite (2007) (USA)
Astrology (2008) (USA)
Cross Traffic (2009) (USA)
Dominus (2008) (USA)
Even The Score (1998) (USA)
Fort Larned (2008) (USA)
Hat Trick (2001) (USA)
I Want Revenge (2006) (USA)
Liam's Map (2011) (USA)
Macho Uno (1998) (USA)
Midshipman (2006) (USA)
Mineshaft (1999) (USA)
Mizzen Mast (1998) (USA)
Mr Speaker (2011) (USA)
Musketier (2002) (USA)
Orb (2010) (USA)
Power Broker (2010) (USA)
Revolutionary (2010) (USA)
Run Away And Hide (2006) (USA)
Shakin It Up (2010) (USA)
Street Boss (2004) (USA)
Taste Of Paradise (1999) (USA)

A lack of Northern Dancer and Mr Prospector?

tryfix · 15-09-2017 01:31PM

diomed wrote: »

Yes, I think they have no Northern Dancer in their pedigrees (but I haven't eyeballed the pedigrees fully).
Many of the ones that surfaced are jump sires.
I wrote a few programs analysing sires looking for sires with good horses on their lesser pedigree lines i.e. sires and dams who produced many offspring.
Top of the class for you.

Kendargent has Northern Dancer in his 6th gen, through his son Lyphard.

It comes through the Linamix line.

Imhof Tank · 15-09-2017 02:12PM

I see Tagula there on your list. Remember when Coolmore bought into his son Canford Cliffs there was a lot of talk of his suitability as a outcross. Hasn't really worked out however.

tryfix · 15-09-2017 03:29PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I see Tagula there on your list. Remember when Coolmore bought into his son Canford Cliffs there was a lot of talk of his suitability as a outcross. Hasn't really worked out however.

He actually worked really well as an outcross but overall his job as a stallion at Coolmore wasn't to be an outcross for their mares but to exploit his cheap sprinter-miler speed as a sire of hundreds of handicappers and to move him on when they could make more money by sticking in another newbie to exploit the honeymoon period given to young sires.

As an outcross, he has 9 winners to 14 runners ( 64%) from Galileo mares ( no star Galileo mares his way) and 2 of his best 3 runners Wall Of Fire and Saloueen are out of those Galileo mares.

He's 6 for 6 ( 100%) with Cape Cross mares and his second best runner is out of a Cape Cross mare.

I'd say he'd have had little problem siring a few decent middle-distance Gp 1 winners if he'd been sent anything within an assess roar of what Frankel is getting sent his way.

Imhof Tank · 15-09-2017 04:16PM

tryfix wrote: »

He actually worked really well as an outcross but overall his job as a stallion at Coolmore wasn't to be an outcross for their mares but to exploit his cheap sprinter-miler speed as a sire of hundreds of handicappers and to move him on when they could make more money by sticking in another newbie to exploit the honeymoon period given to young sires.

As an outcross, he has 9 winners to 14 runners ( 64%) from Galileo mares ( no star Galileo mares his way) and 2 of his best 3 runners Wall Of Fire and Saloueen are out of those Galileo mares.

He's 6 for 6 ( 100%) with Cape Cross mares and his second best runner is out of a Cape Cross mare.

I'd say he'd have had little problem siring a few decent middle-distance Gp 1 winners if he'd been sent anything within an assess roar of what Frankel is getting sent his way.

They definitely promoted him initially as a sire they would use themselves, his USP being his status as a perfect outcross for Gallileo mares. If it didn't work out that way something obviously changed along the way but that was the strategy when they acquired him.

I don't think he would be one to use short term and easily replace for the commercial sector either, again because of the unusual lack of Northern Dancer on his page.

@ Diomed - would he be one of the possibilities for that mating you are scheming with the mare you are going to buy?

diomed · 16-09-2017 12:10PM

tryfix wrote: »

Kendargent has Northern Dancer in his 6th gen, through his son Lyphard.
It comes through the Linamix line.

Good spot.
I extracted only up to and including the 5th generation, and Kendargent had none up to there.
My post should have said "up to and including the 5th generation".

diomed · 16-09-2017 12:56PM

I started to look up each horse I listed checking up to the 10th generation for Northern Dancer using the report feature of TesioPower.

From the first few in my list that I said have no Northern Dancer I got these below who have Northern Dancer in the 6th generation or in the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th.
But realised I may have missed some. The reason is TesioPower lists in alphabetic order in a strange way.
For example, for horses starting with the letter N the software first lists the duplicated horses in BLOCK CAPITALS then below that lists horses that occur once in lowercase.

Orb also has one Northern Dancer – through Malibu Moon, Macoumba, Maximova …..
Shakin It Up has three Northern Dancer – one through his sire, two through his dam
Maiguri has no Northern Dancer – but strangely he has 18 horses by Northern Dancer’s sire Nearco
Musketier has has one Northern Dancer – on his dam’s sire line
Turgeon (no ND) is strange. He is 31 years old and he is at stud in 2017 at a €4k fee.
Gemix has one Northern Dancer.
...........................

I gave up as it is a bit of a pointless exercise.

Stallions

Comments