Brexit discussion thread II

ambro25 · 14-09-2017 12:33PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think we are rapidly reaching the point that where people in the EU no longer care what happens to the UK.

I've long been taking my daily news from, besides the UK (where I reside) and Ireland (where I used to reside and for which I still have a load of time, hence still active on Boards.ie

), France, Luxembourg and Belgium. And I think that oppenheimer1 is right, that particular boat sailed ages ago, tbh.

murphaph · 14-09-2017 12:50PM

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

I'm sick of the neutrality claim. We're not really neutral when we allow NATO aircraft to refuel.

I would not be in favour of joining NATO but I would favour a European army for sure.

murphaph · 14-09-2017 12:52PM

Here in Germany Brexit is a done deal. The UK is leaving. It's just a process to work through now. There is absolutely no fear among the population that Brexit could do major damage. Certainly not an election issue.

Fratton Fred · 14-09-2017 01:28PM

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

The Lisbon treaty referendum was pretty much voted down because it mentioned mutual defence. Having Irish soldiers being controlled by foreign imperialist countries just ain't gonna happen.

demfad · 14-09-2017 02:40PM

murphaph wrote: »

I'm sick of the neutrality claim. We're not really neutral when we allow NATO aircraft to refuel.

I would not be in favour of joining NATO but I would favour a European army for sure.

The current hybrid war Russia is waging makes neutrality more complex.

There is no doubt that our social media space is being infiltrated significantly by
paid trolls, SM bots and fake news. This epidemic is Europe wide. This MUST be defended against as our democracy can be subverted by it. Look at the US and UK for examples of this. At the moment there is cyber cooperation between many EU states. Ireland is not a fully participating member in this regard.
You can be neutral and defend yourself.
After a disastrous UK walkout of Brexit, when SM is screaming in unison that the fault is with the EU and we would be better off out, when our media follow this narrative like lemmings and people look on in horror as RW support and % for Ire-exit creep up...then it will already be too late to start defending.

solodeogloria · 14-09-2017 02:43PM

Good afternoon!

I'm sorry but the idea that Russia was the reason that the British people voted to leave the EU falls into a tin hat conspiracy theory category.

It is yet another excuse for people who can't get over the fact that the UK is leaving the EU.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Red_Wake · 14-09-2017 02:52PM

demfad wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

I'm sick of the neutrality claim. We're not really neutral when we allow NATO aircraft to refuel.

I would not be in favour of joining NATO but I would favour a European army for sure.

The current hybrid war Russia is waging makes neutrality more complex.

There is no doubt that our social media space is being infiltrated significantly by
paid trolls, SM bots and fake news. This epidemic is Europe wide. This MUST be defended against as our democracy can be subverted by it. Look at the US and UK for examples of this. At the moment there is cyber cooperation between many EU states. Ireland is not a fully participating member in this regard.
You can be neutral and defend yourself.
After a disastrous UK walkout of Brexit, when SM is screaming in unison that the fault is with the EU and we would be better off out, when our media follow this narrative like lemmings and people look on in horror as RW support and % for Ire-exit creep up...then it will already be too late to start defending.

There's no evidence of any of this, you're indulging in hysteria.

ambro25 · 14-09-2017 03:02PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I'm sorry but the idea that Russia was the reason that the British people voted to leave the EU falls into a tin hat conspiracy theory category.

Do you think that Members Of Parliament, who are members of the Commons Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee (PACAC), have any particular reason to sustain these "tin hat conspiracy theories"? I look forward to your counter-argument. And to your own evidence.

murphaph · 14-09-2017 03:06PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm sorry but the idea that Russia was the reason that the British people voted to leave the EU falls into a tin hat conspiracy theory category.

It is yet another excuse for people who can't get over the fact that the UK is leaving the EU.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

A tin hat is what soldiers used to wear. I guess you mean tin foil hat.

Anyway...the referendum was very close. Putin only needed to target a relatively small number of swing voters to sway the result.

View · 14-09-2017 03:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just remind me ...

How many UK Navy vessels are in the med assisting with rescuing the migrants from their rubber dinghies.

At the moment, HMS Echo, which replaced HMS Enterprise in December, which replaced RFA Mounts Bay, which replaced HMS Diamond......

Acording to EU Navfor Med, there are now no longer any UK vessels operating with the mission.

https://eeas.europa.eu/csdp-missions-operations/eunavfor-med/12215/deployed-units_en

They have all "checked out" as no doubt the Brexit government wanted.

Fratton Fred · 14-09-2017 03:50PM

View wrote: »

Acording to EU Navfor Med, there are now no longer any UK vessels operating with the mission.

https://eeas.europa.eu/csdp-missions-operations/eunavfor-med/12215/deployed-units_en

They have all "checked out" as no doubt the Brexit government wanted.

That list is out of date. (Which I would guess is why it is dated 10/10/16) as it also fails to show Le WB Yeats which is also on Operation Sophia duties.

HMS Echo is currently in the Straits of Gibralter.

demfad · 14-09-2017 03:52PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

There's no evidence of any of this, you're indulging in hysteria.

In Fairness, I have looked in depth at Russian interference in the US and European countries including the UK.
One of the bad actors involved in Brexit and Trump, Nigel Farage, has been very vocal in this country about Ireland leaving the EU.
Farage is a person of interest for the FBI in the Trump-Russia investigation. He also worked for Russia Today several times. He was to help run the Calexit campaign which received training in Kremlin funded trips to Russia, until the Calexit leader actually moved to Russia this year.
Farage works with Steve Bannon and his boss Robert Mercer, owner of Breitbart news and shadowy Big Data company Cambridge Analytica which worked on Brexit and US election.
For Russian trolls you can look at Irish SM sites. The journal.ie comment section is full of them.
On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
Here is a few prominent Irexit twitter handles:
AT MuintirNa AT AidiMac AT ExitEire

Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
They thought it couldnt happen in the US, they thought it couldnt happen in the UK. Signing up to all anti-hybrid war groups in Europe is vitally in our interest and should not affect our neutrality. We are allowed defend ourselves.

View · 14-09-2017 03:59PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

While I don't doubt you, when I hear things like this one has to treat it with a great deal of skepticism. Much like people said they'd move to Canada if Trump was elected, how many have followed through? It's an empty threat.

People will only leave the UK if the economy tanks.

Good evening!

For every person considering leaving there are many who want to stay. The UK is a fantastic country to live in. Good challenging work opportunities and great people. I'm not in a rush anywhere else.

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

Red_Wake · 14-09-2017 04:02PM

demfad wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

There's no evidence of any of this, you're indulging in hysteria.

In Fairness, I have looked in depth at Russian interference in the US and European countries including the UK.
One of the bad actors involved in Brexit and Trump, Nigel Farage, has been very vocal in this country about Ireland leaving the EU.
Farage is a person of interest for the FBI in the Trump-Russia investigation. He also worked for Russia Today several times. He was to help run the Calexit campaign which received training in Kremlin funded trips to Russia, until the Calexit leader actually moved to Russia this year.
Farage works with Steve Bannon and his boss Robert Mercer, owner of Breitbart news and shadowy Big Data company Cambridge Analytica which worked on Brexit and US election.
For Russian trolls you can look at Irish SM sites. The journal.ie comment section is full of them.
On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
Here is a few prominent Irexit twitter handles:
AT MuintirNa AT AidiMac AT ExitEire

Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
They thought it couldnt happen in the US, they thought it couldnt happen in the UK. Signing up to all anti-hybrid war groups in Europe is vitally in our interest and should not affect our neutrality. We are allowed defend ourselves.

But all of this is abroad.

Within the ROI, there's no support for Irexit, no politician has even suggested it.

In terms of RW, our Taoiseach, perceived as RW, is a homosexual man of indian descent, who increased social welfare.

listermint · 14-09-2017 04:13PM

demfad wrote: »

In Fairness, I have looked in depth at Russian interference in the US and European countries including the UK.
One of the bad actors involved in Brexit and Trump, Nigel Farage, has been very vocal in this country about Ireland leaving the EU.
Farage is a person of interest for the FBI in the Trump-Russia investigation. He also worked for Russia Today several times. He was to help run the Calexit campaign which received training in Kremlin funded trips to Russia, until the Calexit leader actually moved to Russia this year.
Farage works with Steve Bannon and his boss Robert Mercer, owner of Breitbart news and shadowy Big Data company Cambridge Analytica which worked on Brexit and US election.
For Russian trolls you can look at Irish SM sites. The journal.ie comment section is full of them.
On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
Here is a few prominent Irexit twitter handles:
AT MuintirNa AT AidiMac AT ExitEire

Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
They thought it couldnt happen in the US, they thought it couldnt happen in the UK. Signing up to all anti-hybrid war groups in Europe is vitally in our interest and should not affect our neutrality. We are allowed defend ourselves.

The russian mission has not stopped in this regard, they continue to sow wedges on comments sections across yahoo, telegraph, facebook and many more about how the EU is dictating talks and so on.

This effort is on going and ever present.

demfad · 14-09-2017 05:10PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

But all of this is abroad.

Within the ROI, there's no support for Irexit, no politician has even suggested it.

In terms of RW, our Taoiseach, perceived as RW, is a homosexual man of indian descent, who increased social welfare.

Farage's comments have largely been on Irish media i.e not abroad. The climate denial group exists, based in Dublin. We don't know if Cambridge Analytica have data on the Irish electorate yet.
As my post stated, this is preparation for a time when the Irish economy gets depressed again most likely after a no deal Brexit. The return on Eurosceptic social media saturation increases greatly in that case. Anti-gay, anti-female, anti-immigrant rhetortic will abound.
Brexit was only a wet dream of the fringe until recently.
Ireland is of major interest to this authoritarian axis because we can stop EU stabilising treaties via rejection in referenda.
Muellers investigation may rip this axis down. If not and there is a hard messy Brexit, we should cover ourselves against a sustained hybrid attack to undermine our position and relationship with the EU.

demfad wrote: »

On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
.....
Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
......

mountaintop · 14-09-2017 05:24PM

Regarding earlier comment that no politician has mentioned Irexit. Hate to say it but a few politicians pandered to the populist vote and mentioned it. Full time TD Darragh Callery said he was uncertain people would vote to stay in Europe if there was a referendum here. He said that for no other reason than it sounded good. And that's how it starts. Politicians sniff the wind to see which way it's blowing then they'll say what you want to hear. Irexit is a crazy notion. We'd be straight back to the donkey and tipping our hat to the British.

Fratton Fred · 14-09-2017 06:48PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

But all of this is abroad.

Within the ROI, there's no support for Irexit, no politician has even suggested it.

In terms of RW, our Taoiseach, perceived as RW, is a homosexual man of indian descent, who increased social welfare.

People Before Profit campaigned for Brexit in the North. Here's Richard Boyd Barrett's opinion on the eu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hGAx9QVMDg

steddyeddy · 14-09-2017 07:17PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

People Before Profit campaigned for Brexit in the North. Here's Richard Boyd Barrett's opinion on the eu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hGAx9QVMDg

Well he's to blame also. Has no idea what he's talking about. Especially damaging in the North which will likely suffer most.

mountaintop · 14-09-2017 07:24PM

Can't stand Richard Boyd Barrett with his plummy accent. I met him years ago and he was spouting on about multinationals. I asked him what he would do if he was in power with multinationals. He said he would establish workers' councils and they would dictate how the facility was run. I mean, he was perfectly serious. He's in La La Land, like the rest of them.

solodeogloria · 14-09-2017 07:38PM

mountaintop wrote: »

Can't stand Richard Boyd Barrett with his plummy accent. I met him years ago and he was spouting on about multinationals. I asked him what he would do if he was in power with multinationals. He said he would establish workers' councils and they would dictate how the facility was run. I mean, he was perfectly serious. He's in La La Land, like the rest of them.

Good evening.

Of course you can't. You basically support a federal European superstate judging by this post.

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

The only end of that position is that small countries like Ireland would be seen only as the periphery and not the core. If you think the French and the Germans would protect Ireland's interests in the long run if they had authority over matters like tax, think again. That's why national governments still have a place in 2017, and it's why national governments need more and not less control.

Edit:

View wrote: »

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

The Leave campaign never advocated that people already in Britain should leave. If the immigration policy of the UK would require me to get a visa, I would do so.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

mountaintop · 14-09-2017 09:10PM

It was Europe which implemented charters for workers rights, etc, not national governments. Although I think we have a good government and system here, I trust the EU and have no fear of what you call a European superstate. We need to rid ourselves of the narrow idea of the nation state. We are all people, we need to integrate and lose our fear of each other. France and Germany are not my enemies, the are my fellow Europeans. This talk of core and periphery is emotive nonsense. Look at the legacy of 70 years of a peaceful Europe if you don't think that works.

Christy42 · 14-09-2017 09:11PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

mountaintop wrote: »

Can't stand Richard Boyd Barrett with his plummy accent. I met him years ago and he was spouting on about multinationals. I asked him what he would do if he was in power with multinationals. He said he would establish workers' councils and they would dictate how the facility was run. I mean, he was perfectly serious. He's in La La Land, like the rest of them.

Good evening.

Of course you can't. You basically support a federal European superstate judging by this post.

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

The only end of that position is that small countries like Ireland would be seen only as the periphery and not the core. If you think the French and the Germans would protect Ireland's interests in the long run if they had authority over matters like tax, think again. That's why national governments still have a place in 2017, and it's why national governments need more and not less control.

Edit:

View wrote: »

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

The Leave campaign never advocated that people already in Britain should leave. If the immigration policy of the UK would require me to get a visa, I would do so.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

This is true as far as it goes. Voters in Germany will not have Ireland as their top priority (similarly for individual sections in a country though).

However the EU has had much better success in terms of standing up to corporations than individual countries. Mobile phone companies especially - I always love it when they spin eu regulations as a great idea they had for their customers. Most usefully of all is the roaming rules which I love. I don't see that happening if Ireland was by itself.

I would also be less than comfortable with fiscal policy being decided in Brussels. Certain points of it I could see being more useful if it was a single rule for the eu (tariffs are an example of this) though so case by case basis. The army I care less about as long as it is voluntary. I could see it doing some serious good work, similar to the UK security suggestion.

There is a balance and for me we have plenty more to cooperate in Ireland with our European neighbours on.

View · 14-09-2017 09:29PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

View wrote: »

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

The Leave campaign never advocated that people already in Britain should leave. If the immigration policy of the UK would require me to get a visa, I would do so.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I referred to Leave VOTERS, not the Leave campaign. It was Leave voters who voted and who decided they have had a bellyful of EU immigrants be they new ones or old ones.

Either you respect the Leave voters' opinion and pack your bags or stop your hypocrisy about respecting their vote when you clearly are no more willing to do so than those your criticise on here.

solodeogloria · 14-09-2017 09:33PM

View wrote: »

I referred to Leave VOTERS, not the Leave campaign. It was Leave voters who voted and who decided they have had a bellyful of EU immigrants be they new ones or old ones.

Either you respect the Leave voters' opinion and pack your bags or stop your hypocrisy about respecting their vote when you clearly are no more willing to do so than those your criticise on here.

Good evening!

There's no evidence to propose that most leave voters want me to leave. I don't know why you're suggesting that as a serious point on this thread. Most Leave voters I personally know want to control migration not to entirely end it.

Your suggestion that most Leave voters want me in particular to leave is just silly season.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

ancapailldorcha · 14-09-2017 09:34PM

View wrote: »

I referred to Leave VOTERS, not the Leave campaign. It was Leave voters who voted and who decided they have had a bellyful of EU immigrants be they new ones or old ones.

Either you respect the Leave voters' opinion and pack your bags or stop your hypocrisy about respecting their vote when you clearly are no more willing to do so than those your criticise on here.

Leave voters, or 77% of them seem to want EU immigrants already in the UK to be able to stay as they came here fairly:

The Guardian wrote:

More than eight out of 10 people in the UK believe EU migrants already living in Britain should be allowed to remain after Brexit, including 77% of Leave voters.

The figures are revealed in new poll for the British Future thinktank which wants a “national conversation” on immigration as part of a comprehensive review of a system in which, it says, “the public has lost all confidence”.

I think the issue was with freedom of movement rather than immigrants themselves.

Capt'n Midnight · 14-09-2017 10:26PM

demfad wrote: »

And not only is she not returning control of the (3% law making controlled by EU) to parliament she is taking the other 97% that it already controls away.

Also taking powers back from the devolved parliaments, mass surveillance like the snoopers charter and leaving the European Courts too.

Had she increased her majority she wouldn't even have had to pander to some sections of her own party.

Capt'n Midnight · 14-09-2017 10:40PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think we are rapidly reaching the point that where people in the EU no longer care what happens to the UK.

More importantly no European politician is worried that the EU's handling of Brexit would stop them getting re-elected.

And UK car sales are down, and scrapage deals mean profits are down further. So the German car industry has even less reason to get involved. The emissions issue is costing a lot more than the WTO tariffs will.

Capt'n Midnight · 14-09-2017 10:58PM

murphaph wrote: »

Anyway...the referendum was very close. Putin only needed to target a relatively small number of swing voters to sway the result.

Yes and no.

I don't think he swung it.
But yes it's technically possible, and getting cheaper and easier all the time. Here at least we'd have to send out those referendum booklets which could be challenged.

Mass media shows the same ad to everyone. But thinks like Facebook show targeted ads, which are very hard to police. You could have anti-immigration ads in areas with high unemployment and take back control ads for older demographics. Better still who knows which, if any of the ads are honest never mind ethical.

Previously it would have a small fraction of a campaign budget to buy that sort of data from companies. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/19/rnc_contractor_stored_voter_data_in_cloud

Recent data leaks means lots of personal data is in the wild at low low prices. Makes tricks like voter re-registration, targeted mailshots or whatever you're yourself very easy. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/07/143m_american_equifax_customers_exposed/

murphaph · 14-09-2017 11:12PM

This is exactly what happened. They targeted different messages to different audiences. I'm pretty sure given the close nature of the outcome that the Russians could have plausibly affected the result.

Brexit discussion thread II

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