Christian parents 'to sue school' coz boy in son's class was allowed to wear dress

The_Valeyard · 12-09-2017 05:54PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of parents would have a problem with their 6 year olds normal confusion and questioning about this being labelled as "transphobic behaviour". I would. Personally, I don't think these parents are going about things in the right way but neither are the school tbh.

Yeah this doesnt sit right with me. A six year old is still figuring out the very basics in life. Labelling their curiosity or questioning as transphobic is completely out of order.

kylith · 12-09-2017 05:57PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

How naive. In my school days he would have got beaten constantly for wearing a dress. How stupid of the parents to allow the child to dress like that.

He'd probably also have been beaten if he were left handed. The past is hardly a beacon of enlightened thinking.

A Little Pony · 12-09-2017 06:01PM

kylith wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

How naive. In my school days he would have got beaten constantly for wearing a dress. How stupid of the parents to allow the child to dress like that.

He'd probably also have been beaten if he were left handed. The past is hardly a beacon of enlightened thinking.

I am sure nothing has changed in school. Children at that age are brutal and show no mercy in groups. It's poor parenting.

kylith · 12-09-2017 06:04PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am sure nothing has changed in school. Children at that age are brutal and show no mercy in groups. It's poor parenting.

To encourage your children to believe that there's something wrong with people who are different to them? You're right.

solodeogloria · 12-09-2017 06:09PM

Wombatman wrote: »

A Christian couple are reportedly threatening to sue a Church of England primary school because it allowed a boy in their son's class to wear a dress.

The family withdrew the six-year-old from the school and will now educate him at home, alongside his eight-year-old brother, who was taken out of school a year ago after a boy in his class also began to wear dresses.

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/parenting/christian-parents-to-sue-school-because-boy-in-sons-class-was-allowed-to-wear-dress-36120146.html

Good evening!

I think there's a need for nuance here. This is one of the inevitable clashes of culture that will exist as people adopt non-Christian ways of thinking. I'm an evangelical Christian so I have areas of agreement and disagreement with the parents.

I would agree with the parents in this case that humans are created male and female in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27). That's foundational to a Christian outlook on the world. There are important nuances however. Gender dysphoria is real and people are formed with ambiguous gender. In such (extremely rare) cases judgement calls need to be made about how a child identifies.

I would also agree with the parents that having a child identify as transgender at age 6 is an absurdity. They are far too young to make such a decision with any degree of certainty. Following this way of thinking too far could be destructive rather than helpful. Another question I would raise would be when is the line when a parent makes such a judgement call about their child? When is it helpful? When is it harmful? These are all important questions.

Let me go on to where I disagree. I think being overly litigious isn't helpful and it isn't godly. Christians are meant to live in patience and in love with those with whom they disagree. I think lots can be done by Christian parents to explain why people think this way and why Christians tend to disagree on these sorts of issues. I think churches (particularly evangelical ones) need to step up to equip people how to thoughtfully engage with a world who inevitably will disagree with them.

I'm highly sceptical of the push for transgender recognition and associated things such the push for gender neutral bathrooms and I've got no qualms about saying that. However, it is a very different thing to say that I won't tolerate the disagreement of others of course I will. I do hope for the same in return however.

When Jesus speaks to Pilate, He clearly says that His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). Therefore we can't expect that Christians will rule over non-Christians. Jesus and the apostles never expected that of us. This also means that Christians can't be expected to win every argument or have the deciding say over what happens in our world. But we can keep trusting our God who is always faithful and true to His Word.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

mzungu · 12-09-2017 06:14PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

But I don't believe any of that and I'm not going to lie to my children and say something is "ok" or "normal" if I don't believe it is ........... putting a dress on 6 year old Johnny and being pressured into referring to him as being magically a "her" today named Mary is not something I'm going to subject my children to whether it's the "cool" opinion of the day or not.

You seem to be taking the stance that every single case of transgenderism is made up by the parents and passed onto the children. Yes this does happen in some cases (and TV pushes those for ratings) but in many others it is not the case at all. Would it change your view if the parents were not ideologies and the child is genuinely transgender, with a proper medical diagnosis (the health professional in this case is not an ideologue either)?

In the above scenario, there is no attempt to be fashionable or trendy or to shoehorn an ideology onto the child, and the medical diagnosis is sound. What has been deemed best for the child is to wear a dress as that appears to put them at ease.

In those circumstances, would you recognise the legitimacy of the case?

MadDog76 · 12-09-2017 06:24PM

mzungu wrote: »

You seem to be taking the stance that every single case of transgenderism is made up by the parents and passed onto the children. Yes this does happen in some cases (and TV pushes those for ratings) but in many others it is not the case at all. Would it change your view if the parents were not ideologies and the child is genuinely transgender, with a proper medical diagnosis (the health professional in this case is not an ideologue either)?

In the above scenario, there is no attempt to be fashionable or trendy or to shoehorn an ideology onto the child, and the medical diagnosis is sound. What has been deemed best for the child is to wear a dress as that appears to put them at ease.

In those circumstances, would you recognise the legitimacy of the case?

A 6 or 8 year old child? Absolutely not.

ceadaoin. · 12-09-2017 06:36PM

bennyl10 wrote: »

MadDog76 wrote: »

Explain to who exactly? You??

Children don't get to do anything they want just because they want to ........ it's our job, as a parent, to point them in the right (right as each parent(s) sees it) direction and protect them as we see fit.

THEY need to have their parents explain to them why their parents think there classmate is 'not okay' and 'wrong/weird'. And why they can't wear what they want to wear!

There's nothing wrong with it.: it's a piece of clothing! If a child likes it, then so be it! It's a piece of clothing, that's it!

Exactly, it's just a piece of clothing. So why are these children being told that dress=girl? Why can't they work on getting rid of gender stereotypes and teach children that boys and girls can wear whatever they want. Instead the kids are being told that what they can see in front of them (a boy wearing a dress) is wrong and transphobic and that actually the child is a girl, just because of whatever piece of clothing they decide to wear that day. All that is doing is reinforcing those gender stereotypes. I'd hazard a guess that we would have less of these "transgender" children if gendered clothing and toys werent so rigorously enforced

Samaris · 12-09-2017 06:41PM

Oh ffs, the kid is six! He doesn't know more than that he has a mickey at this stage and there's no real reason to explain to him that only GIRLS wear dresses, BOYS must NEVER wear DRESSES or silly adults will think they're GIRLS.

Absolute codswallop. Plenty of time remaining to beat such silly notions as individual preferences out of small boys, but no need to start at age 6.

Also, what are they getting Biblically offended for? Male walks down the street wearing what Jesus would have worn and he's absolutely getting called out for wearing a dress (again, by silly adults who have nothing better to be worrying about than what six year olds wear).

On top of everything else, not exactly teaching their own son anything about other people, socialising or how to cope with people who don't see things EXACTLY as he does. "No, my son, the best thing to do when confronted with a new idea is to run away from it and be taught at home where it's safe. You'll never have to go out into the world and cope with other people, will you?"

_Whimsical_ · 12-09-2017 07:12PM

Samaris wrote: »

Oh ffs, the kid is six! He doesn't know more than that he has a mickey at this stage and there's no real reason to explain to him that only GIRLS wear dresses, BOYS must NEVER wear DRESSES or silly adults will think they're GIRLS.

Absolute codswallop. Plenty of time remaining to beat such silly notions as individual preferences out of small boys, but no need to start at age 6.

Also, what are they getting Biblically offended for? Male walks down the street wearing what Jesus would have worn and he's absolutely getting called out for wearing a dress (again, by silly adults who have nothing better to be worrying about than what six year olds wear).

On top of everything else, not exactly teaching their own son anything about other people, socialising or how to cope with people who don't see things EXACTLY as he does. "No, my son, the best thing to do when confronted with a new idea is to run away from it and be taught at home where it's safe. You'll never have to go out into the world and cope with other people, will you?"

Its not about wearing a dress though.
Wearing a dress or skirt every so often for fun isn't so bad. Wearing your national dress which might be a dress as it is in some cultures is fine. No one confuses that for being a girl. This child is going to school insisting on being referred to as she, wanting to be considered a girl and using a girls name. That is very different to a boy turning up dressed as Anna or Elsa.

Its a boy wearing a dress vs a child making a public statement of gender and all that goes with that including a life of serious medical procures and serious medications to alter their body. It's a decision that will force them to confront prejudice they don't understand to start on a path they can't possibly understand. It's embracing a life very young where they'll be forced to be shocked and appalled by their own body when it does not develop like their female friends. It's a level of difficulty you would do anything to shield your child from. To start it at 6 is so so so early.

AMKC · 12-09-2017 07:15PM

I think kits great the parents are letting the boy wear a dress to school and I think the other parents are closed small minded selfish people. I think boys and any male should wear whatever piece of clothing they like be it a dress, skirt, trousers whatever they feel good in and the same for girls and women.
If I had a boy I would let him wear whatever he wants and if he wanted to wear a dress or a nice skirt and a top I would let him wear them too and just because the boy is wearing a dress does not automatically mean he is transgender or a girl. He might just like to wear the item of clothing there is nothing wrong with that.

MadDog76 · 12-09-2017 08:26PM

AMKC wrote: »

I think kits great the parents are letting the boy wear a dress to school and I think the other parents are closed small minded selfish people. I think boys and any male should wear whatever piece of clothing they like be it a dress, skirt, trousers whatever they feel good in and the same for girls and women.
If I had a boy I would let him wear whatever he wants and if he wanted to wear a dress or a nice skirt and a top I would let him wear them too and just because the boy is wearing a dress does not automatically mean he is transgender or a girl. He might just like to wear the item of clothing there is nothing wrong with that.

I disagree with you, I don't share you're opinion ....... and, despite pressure to conform to this new popular opinion, there's nothing wrong with a difference of opinion.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-09-2017 08:15AM

MadDog76 wrote: »

it's our job, as a parent, to point them in the right (right as each parent(s) sees it) direction and protect them as we see fit.

And it is therefore up to us as parents to ensure that when we teach our child right and wrong, we have genuine reasons for thinking it and we are not simply replicating our own prejudices and biases on to them merely because we hold them.

You are declaring that it is "not ok" for boys to wear dresses. Yet when asked if there is any basis for such a position the best you can trot out is lines like "Explain to who exactly? You??" while not actually explaining anything. Or, as in the case of my post to you, you simply ignore the questions.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I'm highly sceptical of the push for transgender recognition and associated things such the push for gender neutral bathrooms and I've got no qualms about saying that.

Always a shame, I feel, that those two things have become associated at all. I think gender divided public toilets is a poor idea at the best of times. Nothing to do with transgender issues. It brings little benefit, in most cases it is superfluous to requirements, and it brings all kinds of neurosis and worry (just read through one of the thread on this very forum about things like "I am a man, which toilet am I meant to bring my daughter into" which always results in complete nonsense like "Oh my god, a child might see a penis! The horror! The horror!")

solodeogloria · 13-09-2017 09:46AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Always a shame, I feel, that those two things have become associated at all. I think gender divided public toilets is a poor idea at the best of times. Nothing to do with transgender issues. It brings little benefit, in most cases it is superfluous to requirements, and it brings all kinds of neurosis and worry (just read through one of the thread on this very forum about things like "I am a man, which toilet am I meant to bring my daughter into" which always results in complete nonsense like "Oh my god, a child might see a penis! The horror! The horror!")

Good morning!

I'm not particularly concerned about things like this. I'm sceptical about why they are necessary however.

I don't share the philosophical understanding that many share that gender a social construct that can be chopped and changed at our whim. I've been very clear that gender dysphoria is real. People are formed with ambiguous sex but it is incredibly rare.

I think that people are free to think however they wish about this issue but coming up with a new phobia to tar everyone who disagrees isn't helpful. Christians have the liberty to believe that people are born male and female in the vast majority of cases.

I'm very clear that Christians need to engage in a better way with those who disagree. Taking legal action definitely isn't the correct option. We're not called to rule over others. We're called to lovingly call people to know the God who made us through His Son who came to rescue us. We can't force people to do that but we hope people will freely come to see that for themselves.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

topper75 · 13-09-2017 09:49AM

anna080 wrote: »

Imagine this being your biggest problem in life.

Real problems tend not to be clicked on so much. It is not about the problem but the polemics.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-09-2017 10:15AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Not sure much of that post is relevant to my own, but thanks for it anyway. Certainly good to see Christians suggesting more moderate approaches to other Christians, and that it is a religion where people should lead by example (by their fruits you should know them) rather than by decree or by litigation.

I certainly can not help you with leading people to a god. I can only suggest that you do so by doing what no other theist has ever done..... which is by offering some arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to lend credence to the claim that said god even exists in the first place. That would certainly "lead" me to it. No theist is doing that however, least of all on this forum, but that is the subject for another thread.

Until such time as the existence of some god is ascertained as remotely credible, let alone actually true, however I think it is a piece of data that has no place in a discussion on what children should, or should not, be wearing. If some god has an opinion on the matter than let him sign up for a boards.ie account and post his own opinion on his own time, rather than people presuming to do so vicariously on it's behalf.

Neyite · 13-09-2017 10:32AM

Samaris wrote: »

Oh ffs, the kid is six! He doesn't know more than that he has a mickey at this stage and there's no real reason to explain to him that only GIRLS wear dresses, BOYS must NEVER wear DRESSES or silly adults will think they're GIRLS.

Absolute codswallop. Plenty of time remaining to beat such silly notions as individual preferences out of small boys, but no need to start at age 6.

Also, what are they getting Biblically offended for? Male walks down the street wearing what Jesus would have worn and he's absolutely getting called out for wearing a dress (again, by silly adults who have nothing better to be worrying about than what six year olds wear).

On top of everything else, not exactly teaching their own son anything about other people, socialising or how to cope with people who don't see things EXACTLY as he does. "No, my son, the best thing to do when confronted with a new idea is to run away from it and be taught at home where it's safe. You'll never have to go out into the world and cope with other people, will you?"

I fully agree with this. I do think they are silly to take the kids out of school over this but I suspect that the school are not too devastated. If it wasn't the dress, it would be science class. Or teaching the class about different faiths.

However it's being reported that the school have ruled that child X be addressed by a female pronoun while wearing a dress but when they wear trousers they must be referred to with male pronouns. And children get told off if they get it wrong.

I'm firmly in the "it's just bloody clothes and he's only six" camp and would fully accept a transgender child in my son's class. But if my son gets into trouble with a teacher because he uses the wrong pronoun on a child that swaps gender daily, then I think I would have an issue with the school.

Let child X use whatever bathroom they like, let them wear whatever they like. Ensure that other children are respectful and don't pass comment or tease. But don't punish another child for momentarily forgetting which pronoun to use when the goalposts keep moving on them.

Kids are very matter of fact and accepting, but they do need consistency and clarity to help them.

I've been reading with growing horror the irreversible effects of puberty blockers on children, leaving them incapable of an adult sex life in years to come, either as a male or a female. Life long sterility, and irreversible body changes. Let children live as whatever gender they choose without comment or influence and without medical intervention until they are adults and can make their own informed decisions on what to change about their body.

silverharp · 13-09-2017 10:42AM

Neyite wrote: »

However it's being reported that the school have ruled that child X be addressed by a female pronoun while wearing a dress but when they wear trousers they must be referred to with male pronouns. And children get told off if they get it wrong.

I'm firmly in the "it's just bloody clothes and he's only six" camp and would fully accept a transgender child in my son's class. But if my son gets into trouble with a teacher because he uses the wrong pronoun on a child that swaps gender daily, then I think I would have an issue with the school.

I'd line up with that, none of my business as a parent what another kid does in the class by and large, but outside of organised bullying (unlikely at 6) , the other kids should not get into trouble for expressing themselves, a boy in a dress is still a boy and if other kids happen to refer to the kid in question as He, that should be acceptable.

kylith · 13-09-2017 10:48AM

Neyite wrote: »

...
However it's being reported that the school have ruled that child X be addressed by a female pronoun while wearing a dress but when they wear trousers they must be referred to with male pronouns. And children get told off if they get it wrong.

I'm firmly in the "it's just bloody clothes and he's only six" camp and would fully accept a transgender child in my son's class. But if my son gets into trouble with a teacher because he uses the wrong pronoun on a child that swaps gender daily, then I think I would have an issue with the school.

Let child X use whatever bathroom they like, let them wear whatever they like. Ensure that other children are respectful and don't pass comment or tease. But don't punish another child for momentarily forgetting which pronoun to use when the goalposts keep moving on them.

At the very least I would encourage the gender fluid kid to choose a gender neutral name.

Neyite · 13-09-2017 01:14PM

kylith wrote: »

At the very least I would encourage the gender fluid kid to choose a gender neutral name.

At least.

It's more than a bit disturbing to tell a class of six year old's that a piece of clothing can literally change you from a boy to a girl or vice versa on any given day. This is what the school want the kids to believe. If X is wearing a dress, she's a girl. If X is wearing trousers, he's a boy. What kind of message is this?

How does a six year old kid decide what gender leggings are? They are trousers, aren't they? What about jeans? What gender is Mammy who wears tracksuit bottoms all the time? Does dad turn into a girl if he wraps a towel around his waist after his shower? Little kids have very active imaginations and can be very creative with their little worries. They need to get on with being a kid and not have to deal with societal concepts that even adults are struggling to get their heads fully around and come to a united conclusion on.

Just let kids be kids. They don't see skin colour. Or disability. Or gender. If they come home and say "John wore a dress in today and we all had to call him Sarah" you just say "that's nice dear" and let them on with it.

....... · 13-09-2017 02:49PM

This post has been deleted.

ceadaoin. · 13-09-2017 03:20PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why?

Gender is a social construct.

You appear to be talking about sex and I dont think the school was suggesting that the child had had a sex change.[/quote]

We are talking about 6 year olds, I don't think they can grasp the concept of gender not being the same as sex. They are being told that when X wears a dress he is a girl and are being punished for stating the reality that it's a boy in a dress. It would be perfectly normal for a 6 year old to be confused about that and to wonder how that's possible and maybe even find it disturbing. For example my child is around that age and I could see her wondering if her friend is now a different person or if she might turn into a boy herself if she wears "boys clothes"

....... · 13-09-2017 03:39PM

This post has been deleted.

Neyite · 13-09-2017 03:56PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree with all that. But the school is punishing kids if they can't tell the difference between Clark Kent and Superman. Kids are surprisingly matter of fact. And if their little buddy rocks up in a dress and says "Hiya, I'm a girl today" chances are they'll just get a "cool! I'm Darth Vader today!Yay"
And that is a great way, and enough information for them at that age.

But to try to insist to a six year old that John is really a boy today and that when John wears a dress then John is really a girl on those days and if you get it wrong you will get into trouble, it's just going OTT. We don't need to labour the distinction between play/pretend and nuances of transgender norms to a six year old.

....... · 13-09-2017 04:08PM

This post has been deleted.

mzungu · 13-09-2017 04:31PM

Neyite wrote: »

I agree with all that. But the school is punishing kids if they can't tell the difference between Clark Kent and Superman. Kids are surprisingly matter of fact. And if their little buddy rocks up in a dress and says "Hiya, I'm a girl today" chances are they'll just get a "cool! I'm Darth Vader today!Yay"
And that is a great way, and enough information for them at that age.

But to try to insist to a six year old that John is really a boy today and that when John wears a dress then John is really a girl on those days and if you get it wrong you will get into trouble, it's just going OTT. We don't need to labour the distinction between play/pretend and nuances of transgender norms to a six year old.

Are we sure that it is the case that they punish a kid who who gets the genders mixed up? IIRC that was what the parents who took the kid out of school said. I am not sure if we can rely solely on their POV. If such a rule does exist, then I am sure it operates in a sensible way. Ie. Calling she a he in order to get a rise or to bully etc. That in itself would be nothing new, as schools would punish any kid who was calling another names. It would come under the bullying umbrella.

I would be fairly sure that is how this rule operates. If the school were actively punishing kids for honest misgendering mistakes, that would be Stalinesque.

osarusan · 13-09-2017 04:34PM

mzungu wrote: »

Are we sure that is the case that they punish a kid who who gets the genders mixed up? That was what the parents who took the kid out of school said. If such a rule does exist, then I am sure it operates in a sensible way. Ie. Calling she a he in order to get a rise or to bully etc. That in itself would be nothing new, as schools would punish any kid who was calling another names.

I would be fairly sure that is how this rule operates. If they were to go and punish honest mistakes that would be Stalinesque.

The school in question said transgender pupils were protected under the Equalities Act of 2010, and that it had policies in place to tackle transphobic behaviour. It defined transphobia as including a failure to use a person’s adopted name or to accept he or she was a “real” boy or girl

There is a policy in place, but that doesn't necessarily mean punishment.

I'd agree that actual punishment is likely to be reserved for those who are deliberately being hurtful, as opposed to those who simply make a mistake.

mzungu · 13-09-2017 04:44PM

osarusan wrote: »

There is a policy in place, but that doesn't necessarily mean punishment.

I'd agree that actual punishment is likely to be reserved for those who are deliberately being hurtful, as opposed to those who simply make a mistake.

Aye, I was thinking as much. The idea of punishing children for honest mistakes just seemed bizarre. But from looking at the wording of that it looks to be an anti-bullying measure, and I don't think anybody would have a problem with that.

Neyite · 13-09-2017 04:56PM

That was how it was being reported - the children would and have gotten into trouble if they got the gender pronoun wrong on any day. That might have come about though from children using the wrong pronoun in a bullying way, in which case the school is quite right to stamp out bullying in all cases.

It's interesting that the Rowe's removed their older child from the school for the same issue - a transgender student- two years ago. They are apparently Jehovah's Witnesses so their religion's stance on transgender might have heavily influenced their child, particularly since it's not a new discussion in their home. There's probably a lot more to the story I imagine.

They should just get rid of skirts in the uniform altogether. Trousers are more practical for kids anyway.

MadDog76 · 13-09-2017 06:26PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Don't be ridiculous ......... sex and gender are one and the same.

I despair at this new "I was born a boy but I'm identifying as a girl today!" attitude .......... rubbish at best.

Christian parents 'to sue school' coz boy in son's class was allowed to wear dress

Comments