Garda Commissioner Noirin O'Sullivan announces retirement

FixdePitchmark · 10-09-2017 09:06PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's nice to be reading these threads now that I'm an ex-Garda. Gives a slightly different perspective on things. And the comments here say a lot about what people think AGS is. Again, blaming every Garda for the actions of a few. And it is just a few, when you consider there are over 10,000 Gardai. Part of the reason i left (I had many).

As for her leaving, she came in with great intentions, and had some of us fooled, but she quickly fell into the usual trap of keeping the politicians and 'important' people happy. I'm sure her job wasn't the easiest, and she touched on that by saying she wanted to make changes, but didn't have the time due to all these cases and whatnot before the courts/committees/etc.

Also, being the Commissioner, it's not easy. You have to be extremely careful about what you say, as a seemingly innocent single word or sentence can be used against you down the line. Not defending her, but i'm sure she didn't have it too easy, plus the actual golden pension she's getting (remember, Garda rank do NOT get golden pensions, they get pretty good ones, but far from golden).

I'm not defending her, she had great intent but didn't act on it. No harm, no loss. But what will be next.....

I'm sorry - I know a few bad apples and all that.

But the stuff that has come out shows it was systemic , was deep rooted and in the culture.

For a culture to be that deep rooted - it was not just a few bad apples.

For a culture to change - there has to be an openness, a truth.

I would find it very very hard to believe every Garda in country did not know of stuff going on that was not right.

Ace2007 · 10-09-2017 09:07PM

Donal55 wrote: »

I always remember the evening the breath tests and speeding convictions debacle broke and a Super, or Asst Commissioner from Traffic was on the radio taking questions.

In his words he stated that, ' the fake tests etc weren't confined to a specific region, district, station or checkpoint. It was widespread and endemic.'

To state that these are the actions of a few is a failure to accept the reality.

But your taking his word as fact - maybe he just didn't want any pressure on himself and reflected it off - afterall if you say it's widespread who do the journalised chase?

Donal55 · 10-09-2017 09:09PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

But your taking his word as fact - maybe he just didn't want any pressure on himself and reflected it off - afterall if you say it's widespread who do the journalised chase?

Okay so, if its not widespread, it shouldn't be too difficult to nail down who spoofed the 1.5 million fake tests. Which station was it??

Allinall · 10-09-2017 09:10PM

keith_sixteen wrote: »

Fascinated? Wow. You can't make that little leap and understand scenarios where people in long standing positions retire at an expected age is not "sudden"?

Were you really surprised?

Because I certainly wasn't .

I could see it coming a mile off.

Ace2007 · 10-09-2017 09:10PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

For a culture to change - there has to be an openness, a truth.

On this - at what point do you say what's happened in the past has happened and we'll move on and let them sort it out. As another poster has said, there are rumours of more to come out - when does this come out, does it get buried for 3 years and then come out when someone wants it to - before a GE perhaps?

FixdePitchmark · 10-09-2017 09:12PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

On this - at what point do you say what's happened in the past has happened and we'll move on and let them sort it out. As another poster has said, there are rumours of more to come out - when does this come out, does it get buried for 3 years and then come out when someone wants it to - before a GE perhaps?

This is as serious as it gets - it is above a GE.

A body has to be formed to do a total revamp of the force - there is 10 to 15 years work in it.

Ace2007 · 10-09-2017 09:16PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

This is as serious as it gets - it is above a GE.

A body has to be formed to do a total revamp of the force - there is 10 to 15 years work in it.

so why is it being made political? if non government parties really want to get to the bottom - let it not be political - let all parities agree to sort it out and it doesn't matter whose in government etc.

Have an amnesty so that all the controversies can come out. Otherwise it never gets fixed, and just years of crap rinse and repeat.

FixdePitchmark · 10-09-2017 09:22PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

so why is it being made political? if non government parties really want to get to the bottom - let it not be political - let all parities agree to sort it out and it doesn't matter whose in government etc.

Have an amnesty so that all the controversies can come out. Otherwise it never gets fixed, and just years of crap rinse and repeat.

There is merit in what you are saying.

But a serious deep and anonymous process would reveal the practices - there is enough people in AGS that would want the change.

Most people want to work in an ethical professional environment.

Can you sack a Garda ?

Many many of them will have to go.

Talk of 1000 of them being investigated for the breath tests alone. :eek:

Potential-Monke · 10-09-2017 09:25PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A body has to be formed to do a total revamp of the force - there is 10 to 15 years work in it.

This. And people will only give out while it is happening, as it won't be happening quick enough.

There is no quick fix to this situation. It will take time and a lot of effort, and the public don't want to wait, like everything, they want it fixed and they want it fixed now.

As for the drink driving tests, i can honestly say i never faked one in my 10 years (i'll be honest, i didn't have very many drink drivers in my career, i was too busy with other work to do Traffics job also). I also know a lot of Gardai that won't do anything of the sort, as they don't want to get fired.

And there's the problem, a lot of this 'corruption' started before I, and a lot of the newer Gardai, joined. I wasn't that Garda, i didn't do any of that fixing stuff, not worth my freedom/job/time. But i was lumped in with them because people didn't want to even fathom that there are good Gardai out there. No, one giant big brush for them all. Makes it next to impossible to do the job.

Again, i'm not defending the bad apples, but they're nowhere near as many of them as people like to think. And it wasn't my job to pull them on their antics, it's managements job. But they can't even manage to give each Garda enough time to investigate what they already have.

What needs to change is not the whole organisation, but more the promotion side of things. Anyone can get a promotion. Some were given promotions to shut them up or move them on. That's wrong. Promotion should go on work quality, not work load. And this isn't happening.

They also need to change how the force investigates, and the MET model would suit - Slightly above Skeleton First Responders, and then each crime goes to a specific area for the full time members in that area to investigate. It never made sense to me that in-between all the public order, traffic and general day to day policing (of which there's a stupid amount) i was expected to perform a full and proper investigation into a known burglar because i responded to that burglary first. Makes more sense to have the same people investigating the same burglaries, as criminals have patterns, but i won't know that from the few burglaries i had to investigate.

Anyway, i can turn this into an essay, but i'll only piss myself off repeating myself to people who just don't want to listen (no pointing any fingers in here, just a general comment).

Are Am Eye · 10-09-2017 09:32PM

The top echelons should all be offered redundancy or pension deals to leave. The Independent Policing Authourity should build a new team from outside the AGS to come in and take these top tier positions. Most of them should be foreign police commanders. Some can be managers from domestic private sector. Their remit should be to reform AGS to be an efficient and effective police forcethat operates entirely in a sphere of ethics, honesty and high moral standards.

jimmycrackcorm · 10-09-2017 09:37PM

Potential-Monke wrote:

I'm not defending her, she had great intent but didn't act on it. No harm, no loss. But what will be next.....

The thing I don't like is that nowadays the job of Garda Commissioners is to be the scapegoat. She never got a chance to actually change the force ethos and implement any changes.

We are doomed to just accepting Garda issues for which the solution is to call on the resignation or subtle forced retirement of the chief.

tigger123 · 10-09-2017 09:40PM

I never felt that her removal was going to achieve anything. The problems with the force require a lot of effort to turn things around; I always felt that she was trying to rectify it.

We've no idea who's going to replace her now, and what approach they'll take.

RustyNut · 10-09-2017 09:44PM

tigger123 wrote: »

I never felt that her removal was going to achieve anything. The problems with the force require a lot of effort to turn things around; I always felt that she was trying to rectify it.

We've no idea who's going to replace her now, and what approach they'll take.

The one thing you can be sure of is that if her replacement comes from the inside then it will be business as usual.

keith_sixteen · 10-09-2017 09:47PM

Allinall wrote: »

Were you really surprised?

Because I certainly wasn't .

I could see it coming a mile off.

Apologies - I see what you mean. Certainly am not surprised. Rather, am surprised it happened now if you know what I mean.

4ensic15 · 10-09-2017 09:50PM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

The top echelons should all be offered redundancy or pension deals to leave. The Independent Policing Authourity should build a new team from outside the AGS to come in and take these top tier positions. Most of them should be foreign police commanders. Some can be managers from domestic private sector. Their remit should be to reform AGS to be an efficient and effective police forcethat operates entirely in a sphere of ethics, honesty and high moral standards.

It is simply not feasible for a team of outsiders to come in and take every senior job over. There is a report in today's paper that two senior officers wouldn't speak directly to O sullivan. This meant she couldn't conduct a management meeting. How would an outsider cope with that nonsense?

Muahahaha · 10-09-2017 09:53PM

tigger123 wrote: »

We've no idea who's going to replace her now, and what approach they'll take.

I think the obvious candidate is Nuala O Loan who reformed the RUC into the PSNI today. She did that against a backdrop of deep rooted sectarianism and has to be commended for her achievements. Im not sure if OLoan would want it though, it would depend if she felt the govt. are actually serious about reforming AGS and even that is up for debate. Sure the Govt. want all these scandals to go away but are they really up for root and branch reform? Nothing to date suggests they are.

So we will probably end up with Noirin OSullians husband getting the top job soon enough.

Are Am Eye · 10-09-2017 09:59PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

It is simply not feasible for a team of outsiders to come in and take every senior job over. There is a report in today's paper that two senior officers wouldn't speak directly to O sullivan. This meant she couldn't conduct a management meeting. How would an outsider cope with that nonsense?

Yeah it is feasible. Anyone refusing to communicate in regard to work matters is not doing their job and should be dealt with through internal disciplinary mechanisms. The very feasible new management will be utilising those mechanisms a lot, for all sorts of things.

Spanish Eyes · 10-09-2017 09:59PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

It is simply not feasible for a team of outsiders to come in and take every senior job over. There is a report in today's paper that two senior officers wouldn't speak directly to O sullivan. This meant she couldn't conduct a management meeting. How would an outsider cope with that nonsense?

As the boss, could she not suspend them or something?

What is the point of being the boss/Commissioner if you cannot discipline your officers for non co operation.

Jaysus. What's the point of having a boss anymore if they have no mettle.

Shakes head again.

Sierra Oscar · 10-09-2017 10:07PM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

The top echelons should all be offered redundancy or pension deals to leave. The Independent Policing Authourity should build a new team from outside the AGS to come in and take these top tier positions. Most of them should be foreign police commanders. Some can be managers from domestic private sector. Their remit should be to reform AGS to be an efficient and effective police forcethat operates entirely in a sphere of ethics, honesty and high moral standards.

It's important to keep in mind that Nóirín O'Sullivan was appointed following an open competition conducted by the Public Appointments Service. The job was advertised internationally but there was little interest from people outside of Ireland in applying for the job. It's a good idea to bring in international experience, but you got to wonder how many would be interested in taking up the challenge considering so few were interested in the top job when it was advertised.

Also, forcing the current senior management to retire will cost a lot of money. The Government would also have to put up a lot of money to attract high calibre experience from outside the country. Is the political capital there to allow this considering the fact that people complain so much about high pay in the public sector as it is? I'm not so sure it is.

tigger123 · 10-09-2017 10:10PM

No one in their right mind would take the job tbh, not at the price it's being offered at - 180k.

If you're qualified to do that job, you're qualified to do a similar job that isnt an uphill struggle in the full glare of the media with a massive chance of failure.

Are Am Eye · 10-09-2017 10:16PM

Get what you pay for. False economy to perpetuate this rotten culture. It needs to be addressed once and for all. Add up the cost of the Morris, Smithwick and Charleton tribunels.

Spanish Eyes · 10-09-2017 10:20PM

Just look at what Hugh Orde managed in NI.

From RUC to PSNI.

I would love him to take over AGS. But he has moved on now. Sadly.

flutered · 10-09-2017 10:32PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

I think the obvious candidate is Nuala O Loan who reformed the RUC into the PSNI today. She did that against a backdrop of deep rooted sectarianism and has to be commended for her achievements. Im not sure if OLoan would want it though, it would depend if she felt the govt. are actually serious about reforming AGS and even that is up for debate. Sure the Govt. want all these scandals to go away but are they really up for root and branch reform? Nothing to date suggests they are.

So we will probably end up with Noirin OSullians husband getting the top job soon enough.

was she not approached and ran as in fast and quickly

flutered · 10-09-2017 10:32PM

tigger123 wrote: »

No one in their right mind would take the job tbh, not at the price it's being offered at - 180k.

If you're qualified to do that job, you're qualified to do a similar job that isnt an uphill struggle in the full glare of the media with a massive chance of failure.

every top cop job is in the public eye

flutered · 10-09-2017 10:33PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's important to keep in mind that Nóirín O'Sullivan was appointed following an open competition conducted by the Public Appointments Service. The job was advertised internationally but there was little interest from people outside of Ireland in applying for the job. It's a good idea to bring in international experience, but you got to wonder how many would be interested in taking up the challenge considering so few were interested in the top job when it was advertised.

Also, forcing the current senior management to retire will cost a lot of money. The Government would also have to put up a lot of money to attract high calibre experience from outside the country. Is the political capital there to allow this considering the fact that people complain so much about high pay in the public sector as it is? I'm not so sure it is.

kathleen o toole rubber stamped her appointment, dont be suprised if she is not a contender this time

tayto lover · 10-09-2017 10:35PM

Whatever Government is in power will always ensure that the Commissioner is their man / woman. It's how Irish politics works and always had been. It's about control of the force and Governments want control.

The appointment needs to be taken away from the Government but how will that happen?

I can't see anything changing.

flutered · 10-09-2017 10:36PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

It is simply not feasible for a team of outsiders to come in and take every senior job over. There is a report in today's paper that two senior officers wouldn't speak directly to O sullivan. This meant she couldn't conduct a management meeting. How would an outsider cope with that nonsense?

why not, the cops need thinking from outside ireland, all we are having is more of the same, similar to out politicians, perhaps we are immune to change, or worse still it cannot be wseen to be foisted on ireland

uck51js9zml2yt · 10-09-2017 10:37PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Sure isn't that the reason why people stay in PS - never get sacked, and get a DB pension for life, which is fairly non-existent in the private sector now.

If it's do good I expect to see you posting that you've applied for the next competition and accepted an offer.

tigger123 · 10-09-2017 10:38PM

flutered wrote: »

every top cop job is in the public eye

Agreed, but not every top cop job is going to be under quite this much scrutiny and which such a large reform required. The expectations on whoever is going to take the job will be massive.

MadYaker · 10-09-2017 10:39PM

I'd be surprised if anyone outside of AGS or Ireland will be interested in taking this job. Especially not for 180k a year. It seems a bit of a poisoned chalice. I don't think the commissioner was the problem, or if she was she's just the tip of the iceberg.

Garda Commissioner Noirin O'Sullivan announces retirement

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