Irish naturalization / 6 penalty points

daniel453 · 30-08-2017 3:32pm #1

Hi all,

I hope someone can help me with the below:

My wife and I (both Spanish) are about to post all the documentation for the Irish citizenship.

We've both been living and working for almost 9 years, our daughter is Irish (and another on his/her way next year), bought a house here,..., anyway just to show that we've settled down here quite nicely and would love to be considered Irish citizens.

However, we both have traffic offenses as the form calls them (My wife one offense which was 3 points and I have two which added up to 6 points).

The three of them relate to driving at 70km/h on a 50 km road. This was back in 2015 and we haven't had more.

I guess we will have to wait for the decision but I am not sure the best way to explain this so that we are not considered people of "bad character". So any ideas or experiences would be greatly appreciated.

I had a call with the citizenship helpline two months ago and, for instance, they said that they would be really interested in our P60s, P21s and bank statements. And, although I think this would give them a good impression in terms of earning, I am really concerned that the penalty points will play against us.

Please, note that when I say "good impression", there's no showing off there (it's all about working and saving). But I think that sometimes the way these things work are based purely in how much you make and how much taxes you pay (which in a way makes sense).

Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Daniel

Heart Break Kid · 08-09-2017 9:40pm

Not really part of the answer you need but are you sure your daughter is Irish? Unless your daughter was born before 2004 or to an Irish Parent or has an Irish Grandparents, they cannot claim Irish citizenship.

Edit: Just to note, I don't meany anything negative towards the op. Simply thought it was a potential concern the op might want to investigate.

Avatar MIA · 08-09-2017 9:47pm

To the OP question. Fixed fine speeding is not a serious offence, and would not affect your citizen application.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 08-09-2017 11:59pm

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

Not really part of the answer you need but are you sure your daughter is Irish? Unless your daughter was born before 2004 or to an Irish Parent or has an Irish Grandparents, they cannot claim Irish citizenship.

I think they'd know what nationality their child holds. Based on the age of their daughter she could well be entitled to nationality based on how long her parents were resident in Ireland when she was born:

Under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004, children born of other foreign national parents in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. These parents must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by their having 3 out of the previous 4 years reckonable residence in the island of Ireland immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship and they can apply for an Irish passport for their child.

CiniO · 09-09-2017 1:06am

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

Not really part of the answer you need but are you sure your daughter is Irish? Unless your daughter was born before 2004 or to an Irish Parent or has an Irish Grandparents, they cannot claim Irish citizenship.

That is incorrect as per post above once non Irish parents lived on Ireland long enough before child was born, then child is entitled to Irish citizenship.

Icepick · 09-09-2017 6:52am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

To the OP question. Fixed fine speeding is not a serious offence, and would not affect your citizen application.

wrong and you don't have special knowledge or authority to make such a claim

godtabh · 09-09-2017 7:03am

Icepick wrote: »

wrong and you don't have special knowledge or authority to make such a claim

and do you?

Fred Swanson · 09-09-2017 9:20am

This post has been deleted.

Really Interested · 09-09-2017 9:35am

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

Not really part of the answer you need but are you sure your daughter is Irish? Unless your daughter was born before 2004 or to an Irish Parent or has an Irish Grandparents, they cannot claim Irish citizenship.

Incorrect look at the law and see why you are incorrect.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/38/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

lifeandtimes · 09-09-2017 9:38am

Icepick wrote: »

wrong and you don't have special knowledge or authority to make such a claim

How do you know what kind of special knowledge or authority they have???
Avatar MIA could work for the exact department that processes and approves these applications, unless you actually do you have no idea if they do or don't

lifeandtimes · 09-09-2017 9:39am

Really Interested wrote: »

Incorrect look at the law and see why you are incorrect.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/38/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

Correct,look at the link and see why you are correct.

Really Interested · 09-09-2017 9:44am

daniel453 wrote: »

Hi all,

I hope someone can help me with the below:

My wife and I (both Spanish) are about to post all the documentation for the Irish citizenship.

We've both been living and working for almost 9 years, our daughter is Irish (and another on his/her way next year), bought a house here,..., anyway just to show that we've settled down here quite nicely and would love to be considered Irish citizens.

However, we both have traffic offenses as the form calls them (My wife one offense which was 3 points and I have two which added up to 6 points).

The three of them relate to driving at 70km/h on a 50 km road. This was back in 2015 and we haven't had more.

I guess we will have to wait for the decision but I am not sure the best way to explain this so that we are not considered people of "bad character". So any ideas or experiences would be greatly appreciated.

I had a call with the citizenship helpline two months ago and, for instance, they said that they would be really interested in our P60s, P21s and bank statements. And, although I think this would give them a good impression in terms of earning, I am really concerned that the penalty points will play against us.

Please, note that when I say "good impression", there's no showing off there (it's all about working and saving). But I think that sometimes the way these things work are based purely in how much you make and how much taxes you pay (which in a way makes sense).

Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Daniel

http://www.bporco.ie/live/659.html

In that case a person claimed thae refused due to parking on a yellow line. My own understanding from dealing with cases that in the past even minor convictions (gone to court) has lead to refusal in one case a conviction for non production on demand of a driving licence. I am unaware of any person being refused for points offences which are not convictions. If in doubt how to answer question 11.1 on form 8 seek advice form a good solicitor in the area of immigration law.

Really Interested · 09-09-2017 9:47am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

To the OP question. Fixed fine speeding is not a serious offence, and would not affect your citizen application.

While the minister has not of recent years been as strict, i have seen refusal for a high paid professional based on a conviction for non production on demand of his driving licence. Are you saying that is a serious offence?

Avatar MIA · 09-09-2017 9:50am

Really Interested wrote: »

While the minister has not of recent years been as strict, i have seen refusal for a high paid professional based on a conviction for non production on demand of his driving licence. Are you saying that is a serious offence?

You'll note I used the term "Fixed" - The OP has 6 penalty points, which is unlikely to be made up from a court appearance which incurs 5 penalty points.

From your post above you've never seen a case refused for uncontested fixed penalty points.

Really Interested · 09-09-2017 9:57am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You'll note I used the term "Fixed" - The OP has 6 penalty points, which is unlikely to be made up from a court appearance which incurs 5 penalty points.

From your post above you've never seen a case refused for uncontested fixed penalty points.

Is non production on demand conviction a serious offence? I told the OP I am unaware of FPN being a issue but question 11.1 is very broad and the OP would be best advised to get professional advice on how to answer that.

Also we are not aware that the 6 penalty points are FPN

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Offences%2017%20April%202016.pdf

As you can see it is possible to get 3 penalty points on conviction same with 4 and 5 so no one can say for certain that there would be no conviction just based on 6 points, I accept the OP got FPN. Also i believe and am informed that the minister is getting strict again, so again i say to the OP best advised to get advice on answer to 11.1. I am not saying there will be any issue with the application but if the minister believes the any application is telling lies on form 8 it could lead to issues.

Avatar MIA · 09-09-2017 10:04am

Really Interested wrote: »

Is non production on demand conviction a serious offence?

I would think non conformance would always be more serious to compliance. The speeding offences appear to be paid fixed fine offences.

daniel453 wrote: »

However, we both have traffic offenses as the form calls them (My wife one offense which was 3 points and I have two which added up to 6 points).

The three of them relate to driving at 70km/h on a 50 km road. This was back in 2015 and we haven't had more.

Should they get professional legal advice about a citizen application, if there is any doubt? I would think so.

Really Interested · 09-09-2017 10:07am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I would think non conformance would always be more serious to compliance. The speeding offences appear to be paid fixed fine offences.

Should they get professional legal advice about a citizen application, if there is any doubt? I would think so.

And that was all I was saying on answering 11.1 maybe best to get good advice. I know how I would answer 11.1 but I am not going to advice the OP what todo.

Tzardine · 09-09-2017 10:11am

Sorry to go OT but a question if I may. What is the benefit to naturalisation for you ?

My wife is Spanish, has been here 15 years. If she was to get naturalisation what are the benefits ? All I can see is that it will cost over €1000 and you can have an Irish passport ?

Avatar MIA · 09-09-2017 10:13am

Tzardine wrote: »

Sorry to go OT but a question if I may. What is the benefit to naturalisation for you ?

My wife is Spanish, has been here 15 years. If she was to get naturalisation what are the benefits ? All I can see is that it will cost over €1000 and you can have an Irish passport ?

Was thinking the same, but maybe they fear a harsh Irexit in the future. Unlikely, but not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Really Interested · 09-09-2017 10:15am

Tzardine wrote: »

Sorry to go OT but a question if I may. What is the benefit to naturalisation for you ?

My wife is Spanish, has been here 15 years. If she was to get naturalisation what are the benefits ? All I can see is that it will cost over €1000 and you can have an Irish passport ?

One of the main reasons I have heard EU nationals say they want it is if they have children who are also Irish citizens and have got a Irish passport for the child it is perceived to be easier to fly as a family all with one type of passport (I accept that the child could have a Spanish passport but easier to get passport in country you reside in.), the other reason is some EU nationals just now consider Ireland to be home and want to have Irish Nationality.

Really Interested · 09-09-2017 10:19am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Was thinking the same, but maybe they fear a harsh Irexit in the future. Unlikely, but not beyond the bounds of possibility.

With what has happened in UK, yes many may just be worried

Heart Break Kid · 09-09-2017 10:44am

Really Interested wrote: »

Incorrect look at the law and see why you are incorrect.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/38/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

Hey, thanks not completely incorrect though but subject to parents residential status prior. Thanks for clarifying.

sbs2010 · 09-09-2017 11:12am

You need Irish citizenship to vote in Dáil elections (unless UK citizen) and referenda.

I guess that's a good reason for a permanent resident to go for citizenship.

Fred Swanson · 09-09-2017 11:13am

This post has been deleted.

daniel453 · 14-09-2017 9:29am

Hi all,

Sorry it took me so long. I just got an email saying someone had updated the post. I didn't know there were so many updates.

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

Not really part of the answer you need but are you sure your daughter is Irish? Unless your daughter was born before 2004 or to an Irish Parent or has an Irish Grandparents, they cannot claim Irish citizenship.

Edit: Just to note, I don't mean anything negative towards the op. Simply thought it was a potential concern the op might want to investigate.

In relation this question, no offence taken. She is definitely Irish. She has an Irish birth certificate and Irish passport since she's two months old. We didn't have to request anything extraordinary to get her passport. As far as I know, this is the same for any children born in Ireland. Now, there's special requirements to get the child benefit (i.e. Parents have to have resided in the country for a particular number of years. Not sure if this is 5 or more to be honest).

The reason as to why we are doing this:

1) We would like to vote in general elections. At the moment, we are not allowed.

2) Brexit has indeed been a tipping point. You just never know what could happen in the next 5/10/20 years.

3) No real/practical benefit but we just would like to have the same nationality as our kids (second one on his/her way as we speak). There's personal reasons behind this as well. Ireland has given us a "second" opportunity in many ways (Not talking about job opportunities). I am afraid I can't really explain it here.

4) Thanks for all your comments. I don't really know much about laws. We have tried to explain everything about those incidents so we are not hiding anything in any way. We didn't go to court for any those as explained in the initial post. So, it will be up to them to decide. I would be disappointed if it gets refused because of that, but you can never be 100% sure.

I usually try to take most of the online cases reported as being refused with a pinch of salt. Just because you never know the ins and outs of the person applying (i.e. Whether they are sharing all the information about the cause of the refusal).

If I hear anything else, I would let you guys know but thanks very much to everyone who's answered.

Regards,

Daniel

daniel453 · 14-09-2017 9:51am

Really Interested wrote: »

Is non production on demand conviction a serious offence? I told the OP I am unaware of FPN being a issue but question 11.1 is very broad and the OP would be best advised to get professional advice on how to answer that.

Also we are not aware that the 6 penalty points are FPN

As you can see it is possible to get 3 penalty points on conviction same with 4 and 5 so no one can say for certain that there would be no conviction just based on 6 points, I accept the OP got FPN. Also i believe and am informed that the minister is getting strict again, so again i say to the OP best advised to get advice on answer to 11.1. I am not saying there will be any issue with the application but if the minister believes the any application is telling lies on form 8 it could lead to issues.

Thanks for the advice.

Just to clarify, all 6 penalty points were fixed penalty points. 2 fines 3 points each (My wife 1 point, 3 points). Never got convicted or had to go to court. I believe the department of Naturalisation will get a report from the Gardai to cross reference the information provided so they will see that no court appearances were made.

Regards,

Daniel

oxon8888 · 18-09-2017 4:44pm

Don't worry. I had 6 points myself and today received a letter that I am invited for ceremony in October.

Advice:

Just be honest and disclose that you have those penalty points, also attached proofs that you paid them on time. 99% it would be OK. Unless you have a record of drink diving, or other hard record of serious offences, you should be all cleared.

angel343 · 20-12-2019 3:06pm

Hi Daniel453. How did you get on in the end? I am about to send off my application and I have realised I didnr even include the 3 penalty points I have, a Fixed Penalty Notice for speeding. I also had 3 points many years ago for the same reason but it went past the 3 years so my licence was clear until this year.

Angela

daniel453 wrote: »

Hi all,
Sorry it took me so long. I just got an email saying someone had updated the post. I didn't know there were so many updates.

In relation this question, no offence taken. She is definitely Irish. She has an Irish birth certificate and Irish passport since she's two months old. We didn't have to request anything extraordinary to get her passport. As far as I know, this is the same for any children born in Ireland. Now, there's special requirements to get the child benefit (i.e. Parents have to have resided in the country for a particular number of years. Not sure if this is 5 or more to be honest).

The reason as to why we are doing this:

1) We would like to vote in general elections. At the moment, we are not allowed.

2) Brexit has indeed been a tipping point. You just never know what could happen in the next 5/10/20 years.

3) No real/practical benefit but we just would like to have the same nationality as our kids (second one on his/her way as we speak). There's personal reasons behind this as well. Ireland has given us a "second" opportunity in many ways (Not talking about job opportunities). I am afraid I can't really explain it here.

4) Thanks for all your comments. I don't really know much about laws. We have tried to explain everything about those incidents so we are not hiding anything in any way. We didn't go to court for any those as explained in the initial post. So, it will be up to them to decide. I would be disappointed if it gets refused because of that, but you can never be 100% sure.

I usually try to take most of the online cases reported as being refused with a pinch of salt. Just because you never know the ins and outs of the person applying (i.e. Whether they are sharing all the information about the cause of the refusal).

If I hear anything else, I would let you guys know but thanks very much to everyone who's answered.

Regards,

Daniel

Irish naturalization / 6 penalty points

Comments