George hook

Specialun · 08-09-2017 08:07PM #1

Seems as if a fair few are pissed off over george hooks comments on newstalk today

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/george-hook-needs-to-get-off-his-dinosaur-backside-rape-victim-criticises-broadcaster-for-outrageous-and-offensive-remarks-about-rape-36113405.html

I did have a listen. He clearly condones the rape. his point that women need to be carefull and accept responsibility, is that not right to a degree. There is bad people out there.

Has he actually blamed the rape victim on his "rant"

blueser · 08-09-2017 08:10PM

Specialun wrote: »

Seems as if a fair few are pissed off over george hooks comments on newstalk today

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/george-hook-needs-to-get-off-his-dinosaur-backside-rape-victim-criticises-broadcaster-for-outrageous-and-offensive-remarks-about-rape-36113405.html

I did have a listen. He clearly condones the rape. his point that women need to be carefull and accept responsibility, is that not right to a degree. There is bad people out there.

Has he actually blamed the rape victim on his "rant"

I've just read that article. Where in it does he condone the rape?

strandroad · 08-09-2017 08:15PM

It's amazing how much time his type like to spend on lecturing victims in such situations. Aka "yes he's a rapist but...." followed by a massive rant.
This girl just wanted a one night stand what exactly is wrong with that? Instead she is handed over to a pal and gets a sermon from good old George too. With his experience how about he dares to discuss what is that thing on sport teams that makes them "share" girls so easily? It could be much more impactful than making her "accept her responsibility".

Specialun · 08-09-2017 08:18PM

blueser wrote: »

I've just read that article. Where in it does he condone the rape?

Article doesnt have. All the transcript. Other articles do. Below is some more content

Should she be raped? Of course she shouldn’t. Isn’t she entitled to say no? Of course she is. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of course. All those things."

LordSutch · 08-09-2017 08:40PM

Hookie said it like it was, and what he said sounded alright to me.

SEPT 23 1989 · 08-09-2017 08:49PM

George needed to be shut down

Horrible to hear a man expressing his opinion

We need more of this

Hande hoche! · 08-09-2017 08:50PM

Every time I hear Hook talk, end up thinking about this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QINzmRPfMCU

pickarooney · 08-09-2017 08:55PM

Specialun wrote: »

Article doesnt have. All the transcript. Other articles do. Below is some more content

Should she be raped? Of course she shouldn’t. Isn’t she entitled to say no? Of course she is. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of course. All those things."

You actually mean condemn, right?

blueser · 08-09-2017 09:00PM

Specialun wrote: »

Article doesnt have. All the transcript. Other articles do. Below is some more content

Should she be raped? Of course she shouldn’t. Isn’t she entitled to say no? Of course she is. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of course. All those things."

That doesn't read like he's condoning it. To me anyway.

08-09-2017 09:12PM

Specialun wrote: »

I did have a listen. He clearly condones the rape. his point that women need to be carefull and accept responsibility, is that not right to a degree. There is bad people out there.

Think you may have meant "condemn".

I think he has a point, one can utterly condemn the rape, but can also note that permissive or promiscuous behaviour is also of concern...but is a separate issue. He'd have been better off making the point in a context other than one where a rape actually happened, it was the wrong place and time to make the latter point because it was so utterly overtaken by the horrific crime that happened.

blueser · 08-09-2017 09:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Think you may have meant "condemn".

I think he has a point, one can utterly condemn the rape, but can also note that permissive or promiscuous behaviour is also of concern...but is a separate issue. He'd have been better off making the point in a context other than one where a rape actually happened, it was the wrong place and time to make the latter point because it was so utterly overtaken by the horrific crime that happened.

Ah; that would explain it. I was wondering how he could consider Hook's comment as condoning the rape.

Turtyturd · 08-09-2017 09:33PM

It's better to be wrong first than right second.

lazybones32 · 08-09-2017 09:49PM

Twitter, fb, bloggers and other perpetual web users are always pi$$ed of; offended/ outraged/horrified and indignant about something. It gets old real quick. Let them be outraged in the virtual world.

Hook shouldn't have used the word "responsibility". That is offensive to those who do not practise it.

up for anything · 08-09-2017 10:12PM

"But modern day social activity means that she goes back with him. Then is surprised when somebody else comes into the room and rapes her.

Yes, Georgie, she surely is because in the same way that there is:

"personal responsibility because it's your daughter and my daughter. What determines the daughter who goes out, gets drunk, passes out and has strangers in her room or the daughter that stays out, stays halfway sober and comes home"

Maybe that personal responsibility should extend to your son and my son? What determines the son who goes out, gets drunk, rapes a girl or the son that stays out, stays halfway sober and recognises that sexually assaulting a woman or man, because they are incapable of defending themselves for whatever reason or giving proper consent, is wrong and goes home without doing it. I'd say the former son acts like that because he's grown up listening to your victim blaming and righteous morality.

It's a good thing no one sensible pays much attention to George apart from wanting to give him a good right hook when they're stuck listening to his show for some reason.

Wibbs · 08-09-2017 10:27PM

The problem I have with the victim blaming thing and the usual gnashing of teeth and bunching of knickers sure to follow if it's is brought up with the words personal responsibility chucked in, is that there are two different things going on. The rapist is... well, a rapist and the full force of law should be brought to bear on the bastard. The person who is raped bears no responsibility for the rapist's crime. However they do, or should have the cop on to realise that it is not the perfect world some people increasingly seem to believe it is and in such an imperfect world sh1t happens and we should be aware of that and take steps to avoid sh1t when it does.

QV: "Rape victim, Fiona Doyle, said Mr Hook's comments were "outrageous" and "offensive".../... Women have the right to be drunk. They have the right to say no. They have the right to walk down the street naked if they wish". Actually on the latter point, go ahead and try it. Quite likely to fall afoul of the law there. Anyway, yes women have the "right" to be drunk and most certainly have the right to say no, but they also in situations like the one Hook refers should have the cop and and responsibility to think "hang on, is this a good idea?".

The bit that is often missed in this and other narratives is rights are all very well, but responsibilities and the actual realities of life are nearly always left out in favour of the victim narrative.

BTW these cases are the minority of rape and sexual assault crimes. The vast majority occur where the victim knows their abuser/rapist and again usually happen in the most mundane and unexpected circumstances, where nothing short of a crystal ball would warn the victim in advance. But it's the "what the hell was she(and more rarely he) thinking" cases that get the blood up and the columns inches and clicks. Y'know the ones. The "we snogged for hours, I brought him back to my place we ate the wobbly bits off each other, started to have intercourse for a few minutes, but I thought no this is too much, but he kept going for a while before stopping. I was raped", or the "I think I was into it, but was too pissed to remember. I was raped".

Wibbs · 08-09-2017 10:40PM

up for anything wrote: »

Yes, Georgie, she surely is because in the same way that there is:

"personal responsibility because it's your daughter and my daughter. What determines the daughter who goes out, gets drunk, passes out and has strangers in her room or the daughter that stays out, stays halfway sober and comes home"

Maybe that personal responsibility should extend to your son and my son?

Indeed it most certainly should, though that begs the question if one has some agency in these things, why not the other? Or are women agentless victims outa the box and we should just accept that regardless? Have men more agency and responsibility than women? So the drunk man has to take account and responsibility for his drunkeness, but also has to take account and responsibility for the woman's?

I have to say it really bloody well grinds my gears this modern "feminist" narrative of woman as the perpetual victim. It's damned near Victorian in outlook. And it's damned near everywhere in this narrative with it. It paints women as delicate, emotionally reactive and easily led creatures in near constant threat and in near constant need of societal protection, the poor dears. Bless. Doesn't sound like any women I know and have known. If anything I have found women to be generally more self deterministic and grounded overall than men. Maybe I just know outlier women and most are attention seeking, profligate Penelope Pitstop types screaming Heellllp all the time, but I bloody well doubt it.

up for anything · 08-09-2017 11:03PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed it most certainly should, though that begs the question if one has some agency in these things, why not the other? Or are women agentless victims outa the box and we should just accept that regardless? Have men more agency and responsibility than women? So the drunk man has to take account and responsibility for his drunkeness, but also has to take account and responsibility for the woman's?

I have to say it really bloody well grinds my gears this modern "feminist" narrative of woman as the perpetual victim. It's damned near Victorian in outlook. And it's damned near everywhere in this narrative with it. It paints women as delicate, emotionally reactive and easily led creatures in near constant threat and in near constant need of societal protection, the poor dears. Bless. Doesn't sound like any women I know and have known. If anything I have found women to be generally more self deterministic and grounded overall than men. Maybe I just know outlier women and most are attention seeking, profligate Penelope Pitstop types screaming Heellllp all the time, but I bloody well doubt it.

I'm not asking any man to take account and responsibility for my actions. I just ask that if I'm staggering down the road past midnight and three sheets to the wind, with my skirt tucked into my knickers and unable to protect myself that he doesn't think that my body is his playground and make free with it. Just pass me by, laddie, pass me by and don't bloody pass me around.

I'm also not saying that women are "delicate, emotionally reactive and easily led creatures in near constant threat and in near constant need of societal protection" but in most cases, we are not as physically strong as men and therefore self-defence can be rather difficult.

meeeeh · 08-09-2017 11:05PM

I knew this is going to cause outrage the moment I heard it.

Anyway I would replace the word responsibility with probability. There is higher probability something will happen if you are pass out drunk and you go alone somewhere with a stranger or group of strangers. Does that make victim responsible? No. Is there less probability the rape would happen if the victim wasn't totally drunk, had friends with her or got taxi home? Yes. It's not victims fault if their house gets broken into but it will more likely happen if they advertise on facebook that they are on holidays.

There is very little consolidation in knowing it wasn't your fault once you are raped.

Shenshen · 08-09-2017 11:08PM

I think the question of him condoning it comes with this sentence :

"But is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?" Straight from the article.
And I do wonder about someone who'd ask a question like that, yes. Because it's a question that does get asked most often in cases of rape - why did she put herself in danger getting drunk? Having a one night stand? Wearing such revealing clothes? Flirting with that stranger?

Think about it, it would be an odd question indeed to ask if it had been a young man beaten up - why did he put himself in danger getting drunk? Talking back to the dangerous looking fella with the baseball bat? Walking home alone in the dark? Isn't his recklessness assuming he'll be all right actually irresponsible behaviour on his part? Is there no blame on him for putting himself in danger and ending up in hospital?

But for some reason, and to some people, it's a valid question to ask when a woman gets raped.

bilbot79 · 08-09-2017 11:14PM

He's not condoning it. Some people are twisting the whole victim blaming thing now. Every Joe on the street knows that if an attractive girl gets comatose she's vulnerable to evil people that would do such things.

Women have just as much right to get into that state as anyone but those that do should beware. George will take a lot of flak for this but his words will do more to prevent rape than those who accuse him of victim blaming. It's been sage advice since the dawn of time. No amount of law or prevailing public opinion can stop rape happening.

Fact of the matter is nobody should ever get comatose cos you know full well you could get robbed, stabbed, beat up, raped and/or murdered with no way to defend yourself

Arghus · 08-09-2017 11:17PM

Having read what he had to say there I don't think he's condoning what happened to this girl in any way - he clearly thinks that she was the vicitm of a crime. He follows that on with some points about personal responsibility, because he makes that a series of follow on points, directly after talking about a rape it's easy to think that he's conflating the two, which I don't think he necessarily is. I think he's being a little bit clumsy and perhaps a bit insensitive, but I don't think he's saying anything too radical. If you have the intelligence to pick up the wider meaning of what he's trying to say, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to be genuinely outraged.

strandroad · 08-09-2017 11:26PM

bilbot79 wrote: »

He's not condoning it. Some people are twisting the whole victim blaming thing now. Every Joe on the street knows that if an attractive girl gets comatose she's vulnerable to evil people that would do such things.

Women have just as much right to get into that state as anyone but those that do should beware. George will take a lot of flak for this but his words will do more to prevent rape than those who accuse him of victim blaming. It's been sage advice since the dawn of time. No amount of law or prevailing public opinion can stop rape happening.

Fact of the matter is nobody should ever get comatose cos you know full well you could get robbed, stabbed, beat up, raped and/or murdered with no way to defend yourself

She wasn't comatose though, she fought him off in the end too. She had a one night stand after drinks, like thousands of people do every night with both sides happy. And do you know what would really have an impact? If his lecture was to the "team player" lads who obviously never learned that it's not okay to pass your ons on. But no, we need to hear "women be careful" from the George Hooks and the Niamh Horans of this world again. How helpful and original.

Your Face · 08-09-2017 11:30PM

Good ol' George - working the pigeons

Rumpy Pumpy · 08-09-2017 11:35PM

I haven't listened to the piece, but can only imagine it was from one of George's rants. He can be accused of many things: egotism, going off on tangents, being nostalgic for an old Ireland that wasn't as lovely as he imagined, etc. He's definitely not anti-woman though. He's a dude in his mid-70's who genuinely seems to worship women: Ingrid, Dr. Ciara Kelly, his Mother. His views on femininity might be old-fashioned, but there'd be no malice at all in it.

Dyr · 08-09-2017 11:39PM

Lads yiz dont understand, logic cannot apply when it comes to this topic. If you diverge from the party line in any way then you're victim blaming and the ritual denouncing must begin

I particularly like the quote that women have the right to be drunk and the right to walk the streets naked...eh you don't, neither does anyone else

BrianBoru00 · 08-09-2017 11:40PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I think the question of him condoning it comes with this sentence :

"But is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?" Straight from the article.
And I do wonder about someone who'd ask a question like that, yes. Because it's a question that does get asked most often in cases of rape - why did she put herself in danger getting drunk? Having a one night stand? Wearing such revealing clothes? Flirting with that stranger?

Think about it, it would be an odd question indeed to ask if it had been a young man beaten up - why did he put himself in danger getting drunk? Talking back to the dangerous looking fella with the baseball bat? Walking home alone in the dark? Isn't his recklessness assuming he'll be all right actually irresponsible behaviour on his part? Is there no blame on him for putting himself in danger and ending up in hospital?

But for some reason, and to some people, it's a valid question to ask when a woman gets raped.

With respect thats a typically twitteresque / playing to the gallery / one sided argument.

Have you any source to suggest its asked most often in cases of rape?

I know I would never be asking if the victim was responsible in some way as a matter of course .

I wouldn't be asking it in the case of a serious assault as a matter of course either.
BUT if after more information came to light about an assault and a fella was drunk and heading down a dark alley way I'd be asking why was he putting himself in danger.

Suppose an Irish guy is murdered in New York? I certainly wouldn't be putting blame on him. But suppose it then came to light that he was taunting a couple of black guys ala Conor McGregor in "the projects" then I'd be saying he should had more cop on.

Outrage for the sake of outrage.

People, whether their Irish or Chinese or black or white or male or female have personal responsibility for their own safety.

Harry Palmr · 08-09-2017 11:44PM

George Hooks ongoing problem is his inability to articulate complex subjects which are by their nature highly charged - ironic given these are the topics on which he likes to trade.

Too often he is groping for the right words and in the correct order.

One_Of_Shanks · 08-09-2017 11:49PM

Arghus wrote: »

Having read what he had to say there I don't think he's condoning what happened to this girl in any way - he clearly thinks that she was the vicitm of a crime. He follows that on with some points about personal responsibility, because he makes that a series of follow on points, directly after talking about a rape it's easy to think that he's conflating the two, which I don't think he necessarily is. I think he's being a little bit clumsy and perhaps a bit insensitive, but I don't think he's saying anything too radical. If you have the intelligence to pick up the wider meaning of what he's trying to say, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to be genuinely outraged.

Spot on.

He wasn't condoning it. Not at all. He didn't articulate his point very well, and his point was sort of lost on most of us anyway, as his points often are, but he wasn't condoning it.
That's taking it too far to say he condoned it.

Theres a huge difference between written media and the audio media in that you get time to sit and think and articulate your point when you are writing but when you're babbling along like he does it's different.
I agree it was clumsy but nah, I'm not having it that he was condoning anything.

ligerdub · 08-09-2017 11:51PM

up for anything wrote: »

I'm not asking any man to take account and responsibility for my actions. I just ask that if I'm staggering down the road past midnight and three sheets to the wind, with my skirt tucked into my knickers and unable to protect myself that he doesn't think that my body is his playground and make free with it. Just pass me by, laddie, pass me by and don't bloody pass me around.

I'm also not saying that women are "delicate, emotionally reactive and easily led creatures in near constant threat and in near constant need of societal protection" but in most cases, we are not as physically strong as men and therefore self-defence can be rather difficult.

At the risk of breaking the ice here........your account name makes this post more curious

Shenshen · 08-09-2017 11:54PM

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

With respect thats a typically twitteresque / playing to the gallery / one sided argument.

Have you any source to suggest its asked most often in cases of rape?

I know I would never be asking if the victim was responsible in some way as a matter of course .

I wouldn't be asking it in the case of a serious assault as a matter of course either.

BUT if after more information came to light about an assault and a fella was drunk and heading down a dark alley way I'd be asking why was he putting himself in danger.
Suppose an Irish guy is murdered in New York? I certainly wouldn't be putting blame on him. But suppose it then came to light that he was taunting a couple of black guys ala Conor McGregor in "the projects" then I'd be saying he should had more cop on.

Outrage for the sake of outrage.

People, whether their Irish or Chinese or black or white or male or female have personal responsibility for their own safety.

No, I have no numbers for either. I have frequently heard it being asked in cases of rape, but never in cases of assault.
I'm not outraged, just to be clear on that. I wouldn't expect anything else from George Hook. I assume he meant to be saying something else that made sense, but as is frequently the case got lost in his own outrage.

I would wonder how far you'd take that personal responsibility. The girl went on a one night stand with a stranger, which apparently to some means she was putting herself willfully in danger and was acting irresponsibly.

Someone earlier posted that women don't have the right to get drunk, so that would be irresponsible, then, too, I assume.

So where's the line? Walking home alone at night? Is it responsible to walk from the bus stop to your front door? What about taxis? What if the driver gets too friendly?

My problem with demanding that women take responsibility for their own safety, well-intentioned as it may be and sensible as it may sound at first, is that there IS no clear line at which all the world would agree a woman was acting sensibly and was trying everything in her power to protect herself from rape unless she never left the house. And even then she could provoke a passer by by showing herself at the window or something.

No, having a one night stand with a stranger is not the safest thing you can do, certainly. And particularly so if you had too much drink. Is it irresponsible enough to have someone on national radio ranting about you had placed yourself in danger and asking the the world if you yourself acted irresponsibly?

Rumpy Pumpy · 08-09-2017 11:57PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

George Hooks ongoing problem is his inability to articulate complex subjects which are by their nature highly charged - ironic given these are the topics on which he likes to trade.

Too often he is groping for the right words and in the correct order.

He's an old guy (76) on the radio, not because of his meticulous preparation and research, nuanced opinions, or ability to consider different viewpoints.

He's on the air because people enjoy listening to his brand of opinionated radio. And despite themselves in many cases, because they like the auld fart.

George hook

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