Irish Border and Brexit

Jim2007 · 25-08-2017 01:03PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What will happen, is that arrangements will be put in place to ensure the current arrangements will remain.

Yes someone will talk to someone who will agree something.... only no one knows who those someones will be nor what their motivation will be.

It suits all the players, but the UK to sit back and wait, because the longer it is left the better the deal they will get. Expect to see fewer slots for British carries for a start, reduced landing fees etc...

knipex · 25-08-2017 02:13PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

vested interests of the trade unions...

Its more than just simple point to point flights, moving away from a hub would mean trying to re align local feeder flights and longer haul connecting flights.

it would take a massive coordinated effort to make a move away from Heathrow, so the best option for the airines would be to try and keep the UK open to American airlines and vice versa

Its not only the US but also Europe and all the other regions that airlines currently fly out of Heathrow based on EU agreements..

All it will take to shut Heathrow as a hum is to do nothing.

The UK will take years to negotiate an open skys agreement with the US and the way they are playing things at the moment Europe.. Not sure of the agreements that are in place for Asia...

Jim2007 · 25-08-2017 02:22PM

knipex wrote: »

The UK will take years to negotiate an open skys agreement with the US and the way they are playing things at the moment Europe.. Not sure of the agreements that are in place for Asia...

But even if they do manage to patch up an agreement for Europe, the next issue will booking UK citizens on to such flights... As it stands after BREXIT, UK citizens can't use Schengen or EU rights for visa free travel... I'd expect that the EU attitude will be - we have have a system for visa free travel it is called Schengen, please apply.....

Sam Russell · 25-08-2017 02:29PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

But even if they do manage to patch up an agreement for Europe, the next issue will booking UK citizens on to such flights... As it stands after BREXIT, UK citizens can't use Schengen or EU rights for visa free travel... I'd expect that the EU attitude will be - we have have a system for visa free travel it is called Schengen, please apply.....

Sounds like a No Deal might be quite messy.

No Open Skies so no flights to European destinations.
No Visas for Europe
No agreement for Roaming Charges
No Euratom for medicine use or energy
No medicine agreements
No customs agreements so long tailbacks from the tiny customs posts at Calais.

Surely no agreement, no matter how bad, could be worse than that.

It would almost be like a declaration of war. Sterling has already fallen by 25% over the last two years, and is expected to fall further.

Jim2007 · 25-08-2017 02:45PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Sounds like a No Deal might be quite messy.

No Open Skies so no flights to European destinations.
No Visas for Europe
No agreement for Roaming Charges
No Euratom for medicine use or energy
No medicine agreements
No customs agreements so long tailbacks from the tiny customs posts at Calais.

Surely no agreement, no matter how bad, could be worse than that.

It would almost be like a declaration of war. Sterling has already fallen by 25% over the last two years, and is expected to fall further.

You forgot about the Pet Passports

:D:D:D

Sam Russell · 25-08-2017 02:52PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

You forgot about the Pet Passports :D:D:D

Making an exhaustive list is exhausting.

The longer the list, the more obvious the disaster No Deal will be.

knipex · 25-08-2017 04:11PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Making an exhaustive list is exhausting.

The longer the list, the more obvious the disaster No Deal will be.

To everyone except the UK. I had a guy who was a soft remainer tell me this morning that there isnt a common market \ customs union and its only being talked about now to frighten the UK into staying.. He is a well educated, well travelled businessman who has 70% of his companies business outside the UK mainly the US and Europe.. Exporting UK manufactured equipment and service.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-08-2017 09:38PM

grogi wrote: »

Subsidies for one particular party. Subsidies for particular service are not. For instance flights from mainland Italy to Sardegna are heavily subsidized.

Subsided ? Ryanair have been flying there for years.

As others have pointed out TIR means sealed containers can be shipped through a third country without having to pay tariffs or go through customs inspections.

So no extra costs for goods between EU and here. Same for NI trucks going to GB via Dublin or Rosslare. Unless the ferries up their prices.

The problem will be that TIR trucks will be stuck in the queues at the ferryports. Wales has seen a six fold increase in traffic since the customs checks were removed. There simply isn't enough room , unless customs can be done elsewhere beforehand.

solodeogloria · 26-08-2017 12:01PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Subsided ? Ryanair have been flying there for years.

As others have pointed out TIR means sealed containers can be shipped through a third country without having to pay tariffs or go through customs inspections.

So no extra costs for goods between EU and here. Same for NI trucks going to GB via Dublin or Rosslare. Unless the ferries up their prices.

The problem will be that TIR trucks will be stuck in the queues at the ferryports. Wales has seen a six fold increase in traffic since the customs checks were removed. There simply isn't enough room , unless customs can be done elsewhere beforehand.

Good afternoon!

I'm fairly sure that trucks from Northern Ireland would go through the Scotland route or through Heysham in Lancashire from Warrenpoint which is a pretty common freight route. I'm pretty sure most would opt for this route already. There are mechanisms for getting goods out of Northern Ireland without passing through the Republic.

I'm sure that better means of customs could be discussed in the negotiation. TIR still means that Irish lorries would have to present at customs even if tariffs aren't applied. Checks would also have to take place to ensure that the container wasn't opened or that none of the goods exited into the British market before heading on to France.

If a favourable agreement on customs can be reached with the UK of course none of this would be necessary. This is also in Ireland's interests.

We should be looking for the very best arrangements.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

murphaph · 26-08-2017 07:59PM

Nope. Most NI freight going to England goes via Dublin. Going via Scotland means many miles of single carriageway roads before getting to the main road south.

Compare this to the dual carriageway/motorway route from beyond Ballymena all the way to Dublin port through the port tunnel, then ferry over and straight on to the A55 North Wales Expressway (motorway in all but name) all the way to the M6.

Holyhead Port is very concerned that a lot of NI traffic will begin taking the slower route via Scotland because of customs. There was an item about this on (I think) Newsnight quite recently.

First Up · 26-08-2017 08:22PM

murphaph wrote:

Holyhead Port is very concerned that a lot of NI traffic will begin taking the slower route via Scotland because of customs. There was an item about this on (I think) Newsnight quite recently.

There is a Belfast - Liverpool ferry.

murphaph · 26-08-2017 08:26PM

First Up wrote: »

There is a Belfast - Liverpool ferry.

You know how long it takes?

First Up · 26-08-2017 08:30PM

murphaph wrote:

You know how long it takes?

Eight hours.

solodeogloria · 26-08-2017 08:45PM

murphaph wrote: »

Nope. Most NI freight going to England goes via Dublin. Going via Scotland means many miles of single carriageway roads before getting to the main road south.

Compare this to the dual carriageway/motorway route from beyond Ballymena all the way to Dublin port through the port tunnel, then ferry over and straight on to the A55 North Wales Expressway (motorway in all but name) all the way to the M6.

Holyhead Port is very concerned that a lot of NI traffic will begin taking the slower route via Scotland because of customs. There was an item about this on (I think) Newsnight quite recently.

Good evening!

Do you have any statistics for this? My point is that there are very good ways of avoiding entering the Republic for freight, many of which are already used. Heysham in Lancashire isn't that much further for UK traffic than Holyhead is. It is further north where Holyhead is further west. Heysham is on the M6 near Lancaster.

Liverpool is also a good option, because although the ferry takes longer, it saves the time of travel from Belfast to Dublin and from Holyhead to Liverpool on road. Holyhead to Liverpool by road takes about 2 hours having done it myself fairly recently along the A55. Then Belfast to Dublin takes an hour and a half. Plus the ferry time and you nearly have 8 hours anyway.

You can be guaranteed that if the European Union erects customs controls on the border both in Ireland and in Dublin from Holyhead that nobody in Northern Ireland would take this route.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Sam Russell · 26-08-2017 10:01PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Do you have any statistics for this? My point is that there are very good ways of avoiding entering the Republic for freight, many of which are already used. Heysham in Lancashire isn't that much further for UK traffic than Holyhead is. It is further north where Holyhead is further west. Heysham is on the M6 near Lancaster.

Liverpool is also a good option, because although the ferry takes longer, it saves the time of travel from Belfast to Dublin and from Holyhead to Liverpool on road. Holyhead to Liverpool by road takes about 2 hours having done it myself fairly recently along the A55. Then Belfast to Dublin takes an hour and a half. Plus the ferry time and you nearly have 8 hours anyway.

You can be guaranteed that if the European Union erects customs controls on the border both in Ireland and in Dublin from Holyhead that nobody in Northern Ireland would take this route.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Using Google from Derry to Dover, it takes 11 hrs 39 mins via Holyhead, but 11 hrs 48 mins via Larne Cairnryan and onto the A75 then onto the M1.

So not much difference. Driving time is about 1 hr extra via Scotland, roads maybe not as good. Congestion on the M6 south to Birmingham is nasty.

It might be a good choice for NI sourced traffic to avoid customs but maybe not to avoid an invisible border.

solodeogloria · 26-08-2017 10:05PM

Good evening!

Google won't show you the Lancashire option via Heysham or the Liverpool option possibly. For a few minutes and avoiding customs Northern Ireland will be relatively unaffected.

For intra-UK transport staying out of the Republic is the obvious choice if the EU insists on a hard border.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Sam Russell · 26-08-2017 10:16PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Google won't show you the Lancashire option via Heysham or the Liverpool option possibly. For a few minutes and avoiding customs Northern Ireland will be relatively unaffected.

For intra-UK transport staying out of the Republic is the obvious choice if the EU UK insists on a hard border.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

It will be the UK that insists on a hard border.

It is the UK that insists on leaving the EU.
It is the UK that insists on leaving the the single market.
It is the UK that insists on leaving the customs union.

So It is the UK that insists on leaving the open border that exists and forcing a hard border.

But of course, it is the EU's fault.

Thomas__ · 07-09-2017 11:51AM

Some news regarding the border issue:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0907/902871-brexit-border-eu/

Interesting in all this is this quotation:

Mr Barnier said he was concerned over the UK government's position on Ireland, which appeared to envisage the EU suspending the application of its laws, single market and customs union at a new external border.
"What I see in the UK paper on Ireland and Northern Ireland worries me," he told a Brussels press conference.
"The UK wants to use Ireland as a kind of test case for the future EU/UK customs relations. This will not happen.
"Creativity and flexibility can't be at the expense of the integrity of the single market and customs union.
"This would be not fair for Ireland and it would not be fair for the European Union."

Always trying to gamble, this present UK govt. Won´t pay off for them.

paul2013 · 07-09-2017 12:41PM

Please don't ban from the thread. But are the EU and Ireland (to a degree) to blame for BREXIT?

We voted against the Lisbon treaty and we were made vote again to get the right result which wasn't democracy this contained the exit article about leaving the union and now BREXIT is happening and it's not going to reversed even though the British public see there financial institutions leaving for mainland Europe while I think Ireland will be next out of Europe as we are being used as a muffin for England's benefits of leaving. The English won't even agree to joint authority in the North. So does this mean a Hard BREXIT at the end of the day when BREXIT talks conclude without the trade deal that England seeks? As Wales are looking closely at Independence like Scotland.

oscarBravo · 07-09-2017 12:47PM

paul2013 wrote: »

We voted against the Lisbon treaty and we were made vote again to get the right result which wasn't democracy...

We weren't made vote again. Nobody forced the Irish government to re-run the referendum, and nobody forced any Irish voter to vote at all, never mind in a particular way.

The idea that voting once is democratic, while voting twice is undemocratic, is ridiculous.

...this contained the exit article about leaving the union...

Yes, at the UK's insistence. The fact that all the members agreed to the existence of an exit mechanism doesn't make it anyone's fault other than the UK's that they decided to use it.

knipex · 07-09-2017 12:51PM

paul2013 wrote: »

Please don't ban from the thread. But are the EU and Ireland (to a degree) to blame for BREXIT?

We voted against the Lisbon treaty and we were made vote again to get the right result which wasn't democracy this contained the exit article about leaving the union and now BREXIT is happening and it's not going to reversed even though the British public see there financial institutions leaving for mainland Europe while I think Ireland will be next out of Europe as we are being used as a muffin for England's benefits of leaving. The English won't even agree to joint authority in the North. So does this mean a Hard BREXIT at the end of the day when BREXIT talks conclude without the trade deal that England seeks? As Wales are looking closely at Independence like Scotland.

ehhhhhhhhhhhhh..

I am not really sure what you are saying ??

I don't think the brexit results will be overturned anytime soon. No one in the UK is arguing for the referendum to be rerun..

I have no idea what you are saying re Ireland begin used as a Muffin ?? but I cannot see Ireland leaving the EU to follow the UK..

Chips Lovell · 07-09-2017 01:41PM

I too would like to find out what being "used as a muffin" means. It sounds naughty!

Fratton Fred · 07-09-2017 01:56PM

Since when were Wales looking at independence?

They voted to leave the eu, leaving the uk would be suicide.

View · 07-09-2017 02:13PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Since when were Wales looking at independence?

They voted to leave the eu, leaving the uk would be suicide.

Apparently the Welsh have taken a liking to beheaving as lemmings and want to hurtle themselves off a second economic & political "cliff". They now regard all talk about it being "suicide" as just being "project fear" and secure in the knowledge that they'll all have an extra £530 million for each of their local NHS hospitals if they do so, they can't wait to do it. :-)

paul2013 · 07-09-2017 03:59PM

Ireland will be next out of Europe as we are being used as a muffin for England's benefits of leaving the EU.

What I mean is why is England using Ireland as an excuse that we somehow caused Brexit and as I think the whole UK Parliament should come over here and see how an invisible border should remain that way.

knipex · 08-09-2017 07:15AM

paul2013 wrote: »

Ireland will be next out of Europe as we are being used as a muffin for England's benefits of leaving the EU.

What I mean is why is England using Ireland as an excuse that we somehow caused Brexit and as I think the whole UK Parliament should come over here and see how an invisible border should remain that way.

How the hell could Ireland be accused of causing Brexit ? Its not that long since politicians were told to keep their noses out of UK business when they advocated a no vote in the referendum..

An invisible border with the UK (which includes Northern Ireland) outside of the customs union is a fantasy..

08-09-2017 07:36AM

What does 'used as a muffin' mean?

Fratton Fred · 08-09-2017 11:11AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What does 'used as a muffin' mean?

puts a whole new meaning to "Muffin the Mule" I guess :eek:

Jim2007 · 08-09-2017 01:27PM

paul2013 wrote: »

We voted against the Lisbon treaty and we were made vote again to get the right result which wasn't democracy...

The Irish constitution allows the government to negotiate on our behalf and no more. Do you understand how negotiations work or do you think one can only accept or reject the first offer and it ends there???

You were not required to vote on the same offer twice, you were required to consider two offers. The voters rejected the first, but accepted the second. That is how our democracy works.

Now if you can show where in the constitution it prevents us from reconsidering an issue and that the two offers were exactly the same, then get back to us, otherwise keep this nonsense to yourself!

Water John · 08-09-2017 04:10PM

See Boris says, it should be easy to come up with a solution for the Irish border.

Irish Border and Brexit

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